Half way Norris vote

[JAS 39 Gripen]

You’re drawing a lot of conclusions from a small sample for a very variable statistic. Makar has historically scored at similar rates 5v5 with and without the big guns one the ice in the past. A small sample of the entire team struggling doesn’t prove he couldn’t produce well on a lesser team.

In general, better teammates probably help, but there’s diminishing returns. I think it’s unlikely Karlsson would improve his points much with a better team while playing like this. Where the better team helps is probably to keep getting him points when he’s not playing at his best.

This may be the worst argument against EK by far - it’s just plain stupid.

 

[snu22fint]

I voted dahlin, but I have to change my mind here. Karlsson is actually not slowing down it seems. Crazy if he keeps this up for 82 games. That would be the best season by a defenseman since idk? Orr possibly. Hes not gonna do it, but he might just do it anyway. His 5on5 stats so far are complete madness. He has almost as many 5on5 points as Hedman, Makar and Heiskanen combined.

 

[wetcoast]

Isn't Makar the perfect example of this? 1 5v5 point in 17 games when injuries really was a problem, scoring at the lowest pace all situations since joining the NHL? Then MacKinnon comes back and all of a sudden they look like a playoff team again and Makar is basically back to his old antics. The "more mouths to feed" argument is worthless and for some reason only is used when Karlsson is discussed. As soon as someone pointed out that if it was true, Makar should've excelled with basically half their scorers gone, but then it was time for excuses. Different role, other responsibilities, and the absolutely best one I saw; Makar only cares about winning the cup, so he focuses on defense instead.

You are trying to eqaute a different situation here from the one that was presented.

Somehow it was suggested that if EK went to a better team his scoring would increase which would be extremely unlikely and also didn't happen in the real world when he went from a poor Sens team to a better team in San Jose.

Burns is scoring at his highest pace since 18/19 so I don't know why you're using him as an example. And no one is using this as an excuse for Karlsson. People are very adament that he's an incredible player for doing this with lesser teammates when it seems like no one else is capable of doing the same. Other players regress, EK excells. And one can just imagine what he could've done had he played with Toews on his pairing and Rantanen and MacKinnon up front. But I guess your answer is scoring less because there are more mouths to feed?

I used Burns for 2 reasons, firstly he had outscored EK while they were both on the Sharks and his scoring has remained pretty consistent from last year to this year even with the "better " team change.

Burns has also been pretty consistent in scoring the last 4 years when one adjusts for the league.

 

[Muffin]

Isn't Makar the perfect example of this? 1 5v5 point in 17 games when injuries really was a problem, scoring at the lowest pace all situations since joining the NHL? Then MacKinnon comes back and all of a sudden they look like a playoff team again and Makar is basically back to his old antics. The "more mouths to feed" argument is worthless and for some reason only is used when Karlsson is discussed. As soon as someone pointed out that if it was true, Makar should've excelled with basically half their scorers gone, but then it was time for excuses. Different role, other responsibilities, and the absolutely best one I saw; Makar only cares about winning the cup, so he focuses on defense instead.

Burns is scoring at his highest pace since 18/19 so I don't know why you're using him as an example. And no one is using this as an excuse for Karlsson. People are very adament that he's an incredible player for doing this with lesser teammates when it seems like no one else is capable of doing the same. Other players regress, EK excells. And one can just imagine what he could've done had he played with Toews on his pairing and Rantanen and MacKinnon up front. But I guess your answer is scoring less because there are more mouths to feed?

What are you talking about? MacKinnon missed 7 games and Makar put up 9 points in those 7 games.

 

[Buck Naked]

You are trying to eqaute a different situation here from the one that was presented.

Somehow it was suggested that if EK went to a better team his scoring would increase which would be extremely unlikely and also didn't happen in the real world when he went from a poor Sens team to a better team in San Jose.

Erik Karlsson was lights out production wise during a large portion of that first season. After a pretty slow start, which most players suffer when changing teams, he was well over a point per game up until his injury, yet he didn't play as much as in Ottawa. So much that he, despite only playing 53 games that season, still ended up on several people's Norris ballots. Since then he's basically not been healthy or he's been playing on a crap team, again.

 

[Buck Naked]

What are you talking about? MacKinnon missed 7 games and Makar put up 9 points in those 7 games.

No, it was 11 games and he put up 3 points 5v5 during that time. 10 in total. No one ever said the Avs didn't have a good power play though.

 

[Muffin]

No, it was 11 games and he put up 3 points 5v5 during that time. 10 in total. No one ever said the Avs didn't have a good power play though.

Funny thing is the powerplay was actually horrendous while MacKinnon was out, so it's pretty clear you didn't watch them.

 

[Signupnow]

Why are we even discussing makar. He's 20 points behind the leader who has more even strength points than his totals. Let's not pretend he is Lidstrom to make up for this shortcoming. Fact of the matter is that Makar isn't capable of doing what Karlsson does with a hockey puck. Inferior hockey IQ and play making. If you want to pick one defenceman to put on team italy with the possibility of winning tournament mvp defenceman in Olympic it is Erik you choose. You know that guy who has won that twice in a row in best on best and lead entire Olympics in scoring while not letting a goal behind him.. So that EK can't do well like he has done at team Sweden is just nonsense. He left the entire Canadian forward and defenseman in the dust in that situation.

 

[avsfan9]

East Coast bias but I'd go Fox, the Rangers are probably at the bubble with him being bad/average. Winnipeg probably gets into the playoffs with Morrissey being decent but not at this level + EK65 is playing on a Bedard contender.

The rangers have a good team. Their roster has a lot of talent from top to bottom. They are still a good team without Fox.

 

[Spilot23]

delete

 

[wetcoast]

Erik Karlsson was lights out production wise during a large portion of that first season.

If EK was lights out for a large portion of that 18-19 season Brent Burns must have been historical eh?

After a pretty slow start, which most players suffer when changing teams, he was well over a point per game up until his injury, yet he didn't play as much as in Ottawa.

Most players have slow starts on new teams really?

Well that might be true for "most " players but we are talking about a guy who is better than most right?

So much that he, despite only playing 53 games that season, still ended up on several people's Norris ballots. Since then he's basically not been healthy or he's been playing on a crap team, again.

Yes out of 171 voters 4 people had him 5th on their ballots which is 100% not based on reality as even Ben White could find 5 Dmen that had better overall seasons that year.

But when Makar gets some reputation votes (depending on how much time he misses) it will be a travesty for some no doubt.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Makar is more concerned with winning bigger, more important trophies.

If he’s focusing on winning the Cup in January then the Avalanche have big issues.

 

[Mattb124]

Makar is more concerned with winning bigger, more important trophies.

Or getting the surrounding cast which makes him the player he was back.

 

[wetcoast]

If he’s focusing on winning the Cup in January then the Avalanche have big issues.

Right now he is missing his second straight game and could be in the mix by the end of the season but Dahlin is really the main competition for EK and the guy I would give the Norris to right now.

 

[Signupnow]

Makars impact is really evident now that he's injured and the avs seem to really struggle without him the past couple of days. Hard to say that any defenceman has a higher impact of his team's win/loss with and without through the league. Luckily for them Mackinnon is back to hold the ship afloat.

 

[PensandCaps]

Karlsson's trophy pretty easily.

 

[Buck Naked]

Funny thing is the powerplay was actually horrendous while MacKinnon was out, so it's pretty clear you didn't watch them.

A point or two less than I expected. It's still not a good look for Makar though. No good production 5v5, PP is awful (according to you) with him leading it. Back comes MacKinnon and it's well again.

Makars impact is really evident now that he's injured and the avs seem to really struggle without him the past couple of days. Hard to say that any defenceman has a higher impact of his team's win/loss with and without through the league. Luckily for them Mackinnon is back to hold the ship afloat.

Yes, they really lucked their way into 4-1, 4-1.

 

[Shark Finn]

Sharks are not making the playoffs, therefore EK will not win in any case.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Sharks are not making the playoffs, therefore EK will not win in any case.

Adam Fox won it when his team missed the playoffs. But I guess it's a bit of a special case with the shortened season.

 

[Shark Finn]

Adam Fox won it when his team missed the playoffs. But I guess it's a bit of a special case with the shortened season.

Plus, it's the Sharks. No one gives a shit about them.

 

[MCR74]

You know what? I want Karlsson to win the Norris. I can hear it now.

"Look coach, I won the Norris. See you all in September!"

 

[Nasti]

Call me crazy but I find it less impressive than most when you’re putting up a ton of points and not playing in any high pressure situations due to your team being out of the playoff race since November.

 

[MCR74]

Call me crazy but I find it less impressive than most when you’re putting up a ton of points and not playing in any high pressure situations due to your team being out of the playoff race since November.

I get the impression Karlsson fans want the Norris more than he does.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Norris favourite who is exceptionally bad at defence wonder who that is?

Gave me a really good laugh

 

[Buck Naked]

Norris favourite who is exceptionally bad at defence wonder who that is?

Gave me a really good laughView attachment 641236View attachment 641237

What happens if you add 5v5 offence to the total?