Salary Cap: Gustafsson vs Murphy

Which of the 2 would you keep?

  • Gustafsson

  • Murphy

  • Trade both

  • Keep both


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Illinihockey

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Jun 15, 2010
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because this study shows that?? and they don't suddenly get better at 28??? Gus is 26.

edit- wouldn't one assume that a certain number of players peak and start to decline at 26-30...and then a likely similar amount of players continue to perform as good to better at those same stages looking at this???

No, thats not how statistics work. Players will have higher or lower starting points but all of that data merges into the same curve. Its not a NHL thing, MLB hitters age the same way peaking around 24-26

aging_curve_wrcp.jpg


NBA age curve peaks between 25-27.

Player Progression in the NBA
 

ChiHawks10

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he entered the league later but he was still playing hockey...he just wasnt good enough to be in the league i dont know how you are using that as an excuse.

It's not an excuse...

It's common sense. Someone who enters the league later isn't the same as someone who enters the league earlier...

Players who enter the league at age 18, and play 18-26 in the NHL, develop far differently than players who enter the league at age 26, and play years 18-26 in college/juniors/AHL. It's a different league, with better players, on average, and better competition, and better coaches, and better trainers, and better nutritionists, and better medical teams, and better... everything.
 

ChiHawk21

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And they don't suddenly get better at 28. They basically plateau at 26 and decline into their 30's when they really start to decline heavily. How old is Gus again?
i mean your completely right in your opinion from the average NHL player that his development may not happen and is hard to use for an excuse. you just provided the chart that shows this...
 

Illinihockey

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Typical players who enter the league at age 18-20. Not players who basically enter the league at age 25. :laugh:

Is it really so hard to understand that concept?

Your data is flawed in that it's not accounting for players who enter the league later, for one. I looked at all that data yesterday. It's likely accounting for those types of players, though I'd have to go back and read it all again to know for sure. It's an average. It doesn't account for players like Gus. :shakehead

Its not my data. It does account for players like Gus because those guys often don't make it.
 

Illinihockey

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It's not an excuse...

It's common sense. Someone who enters the league later isn't the same as someone who enters the league earlier...

Players who enter the league at age 18, and play 18-26 in the NHL, develop far differently than players who enter the league at age 26, and play years 18-26 in college/juniors/AHL. It's a different league, with better players, on average, and better competition, and better coaches, and better trainers, and better nutritionists, and better medical teams, and better... everything.

Gustafsson entered the league at 23, he was drafted in 2012.
 

ChiHawks10

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Gustafsson entered the league at 23, he was drafted in 2012.

... :dunce:

Since he "entered the league" as you say, he has played more than half a season... once, this season. He has played 136 games since he was drafted in 2012. His first NHL game wasn't until 2015-2016. He spent large chunks of his previous two seasons in the AHL, not the NHL. He didn't really "enter the league" as a regular player until this season. :shakehead
 

ChiHawk21

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i dont know how you can disagree with the data that is provided. on average he wouldn't develop more...he very well could, he might. but if someone were to bet based on averages based on that information then....
 

ChiHawks10

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i dont know how you can disagree with the data that is provided. on average he wouldn't develop more...

On average... but he is not the average NHL player...

The data is accounting for players entering the league at age 18 or 19. Hence why the charts start at age 18 or 19...

That is not Gus... therefore his development likely will not follow the same curve. This is common sense/logic. And has nothing to do with the data provided other than showing it is flawed for his argument.
 

ChiHawk21

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On average... but he is not the average NHL player...

The data is accounting for players entering the league at age 18 or 19. Hence why the charts start at age 18 or 19...

That is not Gus... therefore his development likely will not follow the same curve. This is common sense/logic. And has nothing to do with the data provided other than showing it is flawed for his argument.
its not a graph for nhl players starting at 18-19...its average. so if a player comes in at 23 thats where they would be averaged in at. Its crazy to me that someone could have the notion that development is not an excuse that gus should have....then you look at a chart and by age development on average has happened and people are at there peak at his age and you would call someone laughable and stupid for that. its completely reasonable for someone to think that.
 

ChiHawks10

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its not a graph for nhl players starting at 18-19...its average. so if a player comes in at 23 thats where they would be averaged in at. Its crazy to me that someone could have the notion that development is not an excuse that gus should have....then you look at a chart and by age development on average has happened and people are at there peak at his age and you would call someone laughable and stupid for that. its completely reasonable for someone to think that.

If that's what the data states, if you read the actual text that goes with those charts(it's all on the website) and it's averaging in each player at their specific age that they enter the league, then I'll stand corrected, and admit I was wrong. I'm pretty sure that's not how that data works, though... about 99.9% sure.

It's taking each player, starting at age 18-19(or whenever the chart starts), and then averaging their WAR across the ages of all players. So it takes all players at 18 years old, and averages all their WAR. It then takes all players at 19 years old, and averages their WAR. So on and so forth, until the chart's data ends at whatever age... See where I'm going with this? So the chart will include... Patrick Kane's 18 year old year, 19 year old year, 20 year old year, 21 year old year, 22 year old year... so on and so forth. And that builds his curve. They do that for every single player. Then they build the average out of that by marking the average points for all age groups, and drawing your curve from year to year... So that curve will be different than someone who enters the league later, typically. Not every player ages/follows the same curve as far as production and development, especially those who enter the league years apart... This is simply an "average"...


Gus would get lumped into the data with other 26 year olds, and their production/curve. Except a large chunk of those 26 year olds have been in the league for 4, 5, 6, 7, or even 8 years at that point... whereas he hasn't. Do you see what I mean about the data being flawed for the argument, now? He can't be lumped into a development curve with other players that are also aged 26, because that data is not accounting for players who enter the league at age 26... It is simply tracking the average of all players as they progressed through ages 18/19 and up...

To get an accurate depiction, you would have to find all players who basically started their NHL career at age 26(or age 23 if you'd prefer since that was when he played his first NHL game), and then build the curve for them moving forward from age 26(or 23) on up.
 
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ClydeLee

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i dont know how you can disagree with the data that is provided. on average he wouldn't develop more...he very well could, he might. but if someone were to bet based on averages based on that information then....

Because War or points data isnt defense??

He could improve defensively and be more steady and fit right in there sloping on average. Because he plays a smarter safer game but produces less offense because of that. And that is even a notion a lot of offensive players get stated about their careers. People argue about peak being points peak but it may be, just guys improving defensively doesnt always cover the loss of their less offense.

There is too many layers of details within the statements being proclaimed that none of these hardline stances seem rationally built. Even the notion that his value is at its highest now or over the summer ignores it could peak at the trade deadline next year if his offensive production is high next year too.
 
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ChiHawk21

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Because War or points data isnt defense??

He could improve defensively and be more steady and fit right in there sloping on average. Because he plays a smarter safer game but produces less offense because of that. And that is even a notion a lot of offensive players get stated about their careers. People argue about peak being points peak but it may be, just guys improving defensively doesnt always cover the loss of their less offense.

There is too many layers of details within the statements being proclaimed that none of these hardline stances seem rationally built. Even the notion that his value is at its highest now or over the summer ignores it could peak at the trade deadline next year if his offensive production is high next year too.

except for term on his deal. that being said i would love if his defensive game got better even if his offense dips, i am not ruling that out at all it could happen. but calling someone stupid who thinks his development is what it is at this point and can point to a chart that shows at this age development is stagnet is nuts to me. its a reasonable and rational thought that an average player levels out here then so will this one defenseman that we are talking about. instead chihawk10 and american dream belittle everyones thoughts if they are not there own. everyone is stupid, this is laughable, this board is hysterical is posted everyday by these guys lol
 

ChiHawks10

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except for term on his deal. that being said i would love if his defensive game got better even if his offense dips, i am not ruling that out at all it could happen. but calling someone stupid who thinks his development is what it is at this point and can point to a chart that shows at this age development is stagnet is nuts to me. its a reasonable and rational thought that an average player levels out here then so will this one defenseman that we are talking about. instead chihawk10 and american dream belittle everyones thoughts if they are not there own. everyone is stupid, this is laughable, this board is hysterical is posted everyday by these guys lol

... Again, the data is flawed. Read my previous post.

I haven't belittled thoughts that weren't my own. I haven't called anyone stupid on here. I said certain ideas/opinions/predictions/whatever were stupid(to me), but I never called anyone stupid. I've laughed at things that have been said that I've thought are stupid posts. Which I'm entitled to do, no? Forum rules state "Critique the opinion/post, not the poster." And that's what I've been doing.

If someone says "Patrick Kane won't be in the Hall of Fame." I'm going to laugh at it, because it's a stupid statement/opinion, and then I'm going to say, "That's a ridiculously dumb opinion to have." and I'm going to prove why. That's how debates/discussions go...

If you don't think something is stupid, then prove to me it isn't...
 
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Rolo

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Aug 9, 2011
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I would trade Gus at next years deadline.. I don't want to see a D-core that includes Gus, Jokiharju & Boqvist.. we need some shutdown guys, and give the PP reigns to the kids eventually.

Joki looked decent at the start of the year on the PP, no doubt in my mind he can step in and put up 40pts next year in Gustafssons role.

I will miss him, and like him, but we have guys to replace him in the system.
 

Pez68

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Take that data and prove to me that age is the factor for performance, and not how many seasons they've been in the league. Good luck.

Crawford's best seasons came from age 28 and over.
Patrick Sharp's best seasons came from age 28-32.
Marchand's best seasons started at 27.
Tim Thomas' best seasons were 33-37.
Patrick Kane has been better at ages 27-30 than he was from 20-27.
Keith's best seasons are from ages 27-34.

Players are CONSTANTLY evolving, developing, and changing their game in the NHL. There are 4 Blackhawks just in the list above.

Out. To. Lunch.
 

Illinihockey

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Jun 15, 2010
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Gus would get lumped into the data with other 26 year olds, and their production/curve. Except a large chunk of those 26 year olds have been in the league for 4, 5, 6, 7, or even 8 years at that point... whereas he hasn't. Do you see what I mean about the data being flawed for the argument, now? He can't be lumped into a development curve with other players that are also aged 26, because that data is not accounting for players who enter the league at age 26... It is simply tracking the average of all players as they progressed through ages 18/19 and up...

To get an accurate depiction, you would have to find all players who basically started their NHL career at age 26(or age 23 if you'd prefer since that was when he played his first NHL game), and then build the curve for them moving forward from age 26(or 23) on up.

He's been in the league since 15-16. Just because he wasn't good enough to stay in it and play every game doesn't change his age curve.
 

Illinihockey

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Jun 15, 2010
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Take that data and prove to me that age is the factor for performance, and not how many seasons they've been in the league. Good luck.

Crawford's best seasons came from age 28 and over.
Patrick Sharp's best seasons came from age 28-32.
Marchand's best seasons started at 27.
Tim Thomas' best seasons were 33-37.
Patrick Kane has been better at ages 27-30 than he was from 20-27.
Keith's best seasons are from ages 27-34.

Players are CONSTANTLY evolving, developing, and changing their game in the NHL. There are 4 Blackhawks just in the list above.

Out. To. Lunch.

Big caveat, goalies develop later than skaters. Duncan Keith won the Norris at 26 and should have won the Conn Smythe that year too.
 

ChiHawk21

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Jan 15, 2011
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Take that data and prove to me that age is the factor for performance, and not how many seasons they've been in the league. Good luck.

Crawford's best seasons came from age 28 and over.
Patrick Sharp's best seasons came from age 28-32.
Marchand's best seasons started at 27.
Tim Thomas' best seasons were 33-37.
Patrick Kane has been better at ages 27-30 than he was from 20-27.
Keith's best seasons are from ages 27-34.

Players are CONSTANTLY evolving, developing, and changing their game in the NHL. There are 4 Blackhawks just in the list above.

Out. To. Lunch.
yes some are better later. but on average.......
 

ColdSteel2

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He's been in the league since 15-16. Just because he wasn't good enough to stay in it and play every game doesn't change his age curve.

He wasn’t good enough to play for Q. The data doesn’t account for coaching.

It also doesn’t account for changes within the league. The game is becoming faster and more skilled, same reason Rafalski got his chance later. Nobody wanted small defensemen in the dead puck era.
 

Pez68

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Nik Lidstrom was a better defenseman from ages 30-40 than he was from 20-30. He was 31, 32, 33, 36, 37, 38, and 41 when he won his Norris trophies.

Defensemen ALSO develop slower and peak later than forwards.
 
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