Rumor: Grigorenko to the KHL...

[Matt Ress]

I just lol on people who say about Russian factor. Actually, 2-way QO is the best for Grigorenko. Because he'll be claimed off the waivers by Arizona and get garanteed NHL place. I think it's actually what he wants and what Buffalo doesn't want.

And yeah, playing on the 3rd-4th line as a winger is the best for his development. Brilliant logic a la HF.

That just won't happen. Murray won't subject him to waivers knowing that someone will pick him up. If anything, he'd send him to another team for a return. I understand you're seeking the best options for Grigorenko but, aside from heading back to Russia for the majority of his prime, he doesn't hold control of the situation.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

get him signed to a 1 year deal and let him play and see what he can do.. The team will be terrible next year anyways so give him a year to see what he can do without him having the nervousness of getting sent to AHL at any point... if he craps the bed, let him walk after the season.

I hope he is back for another season.. I just have a feeling he may click with some of the new faces

 

[joshjull]

If this happens, I'd say I'm about done with ever using high picks (1st rounders) on Russians.

It's just proving to be too much of a risk.

This situation makes me more leery about rushing guys we're not 100% certain if they're ready into the NHL from the CHL. That's the primary issue here not that he is Russian. If he still had another year or two on ELC. I doubt there would be any issues right now. He would just come to camp and battle for a spot. If he didn't make it he would go to Rochester and develop some more.


I know the CHL would fight tooth and nail to prevent these players being able to go to the AHL if teams keep them. But maybe a comprise can be found. Maybe something like 30 NHL games triggers a contract instead of 10 ( I imagine this is more of a CBA/players issue than the CHL). This way teams can get a longer look before deciding. Or maybe each team gets one exemption from the AHL rule but only for their 2nd post draft year.

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

This situation makes me more leery about rushing guys we're not 100% certain if they're ready into the NHL from the CHL. That's the primary issue here not that he is Russian. If he still had another year or two on ELC I doubt there would be any issues right now. He would just come to camp and battle for a spot. If he didn't make it he would go to Rochester and develop some more.

Spot on.

 

[joshjull]

Some of you need to take a breath on the two way deal.

All the RFAs Murray wants to keep will be given their QOs by the end of the month. All will be the bare minimum to retain the rights of those players. Its a simple book keeping matter. Its not necessarily the contract any of those players will have unless they sign their QO. After the draft and free agency is when Murray will deal with the RFAs and their contracts. Some will sign their their QOs and some will try and negotiate a contract beyond their QO. And if any have arbitration rights that will come into play.

Bobby Mac is either assuming Grigs would just sign his QO or won't get anything more. But Grigs is not contemplating an actual contract offer from the Sabres right now.

EDIT: I stand corrected. He is reporting the Sabres for now were not interesting in going him a two way deal.

 

[Side Stache]

This reminds me of this guy called Nikita Filatov. Superskilled sniper with bright future, fans were high on him and his potential. But he could not crack the roster. In the end he moved to KHL. Last time I heared he played for Yulaev. Who knows where he is now.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

This situation makes me more leery about rushing guys we're not 100% certain if they're ready into the NHL from the CHL. That's the primary issue here not that he is Russian. If he still had another year or two on ELC. I doubt there would be any issues right now. He would just come to camp and battle for a spot. If he didn't make it he would go to Rochester and develop some more.


I know the CHL would fight tooth and nail to prevent these players being able to go to the AHL if teams keep them. But maybe a comprise can be found. Maybe something like 30 NHL games triggers a contract instead of 10 ( I imagine this is more of a CBA/players issue than the CHL). This way teams can get a longer look before deciding. Or maybe each team gets one exemption from the AHL rule but only for their 2nd post draft year.

If he had a year or 2 left on his deal, he would be considered one of the top NHL prospects in the world..... here is where it went wrong and what I feel could have happened if he was brought in slowly.....

what actually happened...

-2012 season he starts in QMJHL due to the NHL lockout and puts up 50 points in 32 games

-lockout ends and he makes the Sabres out of camp in January and plays 22 games and struggles bad

-to add to the circus of a season, Sabres send him back to QMJHL after those 22 games and he lights up the QMJHL again... And then, you guessed it, recalled back up to Buffalo.

-Year 1 burned off ELC

-2013 season he makes the team out of camp again but gets sent back to junior after 20 games or so of struggling and initially refuses to be reassigned. But ends up going back to QMJHL and puts up 39 points in 23 games. Oh and there was a stint in the AHL in that season too.

-Year 2 burned off ELC

-2014 season he has an impressive AHL season putting up 36 points in 43 games. Also has another short stint with Buffalo again and put up 6 points in 25 games.

-ELC complete
-Considered a bust
-Trade rumors spreading daily
-No room in top 9
-KHL rumors begin
-Just turned 21

Now what could have happened... and should have happened.

-2012 season due to the lockout in the NHL, there is no option at all but for Grigorenko to start in the QMJHL. Later in year he goes to Buffalo camp but is then quickly returned. He plays a full season and puts up 60 goals and 50 assists. Cleans up on year end QMJHL and CHL awards. Signs his ELC

-2013 season he goes to Buffalo camp and gets his 9 game audition. He isn't quite ready for the NHL but the team debates hard that since he cant play AHL, if he has anything else to prove in QMJHL or if they should chance it and play him in the NHL. They choose the QMJHL route again. He has a dominant season once again and the hype of Grigorenko increases even more. Again, he collects more awards. ELC still hasn't kicked in.

-2014 season comes and his ELC finally kicks in and he ends up splitting some time between AHL and NHL like he did this season. Has a solid AHL year with 36 points in 43 games and fans are excited and the league is intimidated by the youth Buffalo has built and Grigorenko is one of the top guys everyone is talking about.

-2 years remaining on ELC
-Considered one of the top prospects in the world
-Considered an untouchable by Sabres management and fans
-Easily considered a top 6 forward
-A prospect trio of Grigorenko, Reinhart and Eichel is RIDICULOUS
-Just turned 21

 

[joshjull]

If he had a year or 2 left on his deal, he would be considered one of the top NHL prospects in the world..... here is where it went wrong and what I feel could have happened if he was brought in slowly.....

what actually happened...

-2012 season he starts in QMJHL due to the NHL lockout and puts up 50 points in 32 games

-lockout ends and he makes the Sabres out of camp in January and plays 22 games and struggles bad

-to add to the circus of a season, Sabres send him back to QMJHL after those 22 games and he lights up the QMJHL again... And then, you guessed it, recalled back up to Buffalo.

-Year 1 burned off ELC

-2013 season he makes the team out of camp again but gets sent back to junior after 20 games or so of struggling and initially refuses to be reassigned. But ends up going back to QMJHL and puts up 39 points in 23 games. Oh and there was a stint in the AHL in that season too.

-Year 2 burned off ELC

-2014 season he has an impressive AHL season putting up 36 points in 43 games. Also has another short stint with Buffalo again and put up 6 points in 25 games.

-ELC complete
-Considered a bust
-Trade rumors spreading daily
-No room in top 9
-KHL rumors begin
-Just turned 21

Now what could have happened... and should have happened.

-2012 season due to the lockout in the NHL, there is no option at all but for Grigorenko to start in the QMJHL. Later in year he goes to Buffalo camp but is then quickly returned. He plays a full season and puts up 60 goals and 50 assists. Cleans up on year end QMJHL and CHL awards. Signs his ELC

-2013 season he goes to Buffalo camp and gets his 9 game audition. He isn't quite ready for the NHL but the team debates hard that since he cant play AHL, if he has anything else to prove in QMJHL or if they should chance it and play him in the NHL. They choose the QMJHL route again. He has a dominant season once again and the hype of Grigorenko increases even more. Again, he collects more awards. ELC still hasn't kicked in.

-2014 season comes and his ELC finally kicks in and he ends up splitting some time between AHL and NHL like he did this season. Has a solid AHL year with 36 points in 43 games and fans are excited and the league is intimidated by the youth Buffalo has built and Grigorenko is one of the top guys everyone is talking about.

-2 years remaining on ELC
-Considered one of the top prospects in the world
-Considered an untouchable by Sabres management and fans
-Easily considered a top 6 forward
-Just turned 21

Lets not get carried away. If he had 1 or 2 years left on his ELC, he would still be viewed as the same player/prospect he is today by Murray. The difference though is no decision would have to be made because he wouldn't be exposed to waivers yet.

If he was one of the top prospects in the world his contract status right now would be irrelevant. Adding a year or two doesn't suddenly make him some superstar. The reality is much better youngsters are here and coming so he has been shoved down the pecking order.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Lets not get carried away. If he had 1 or 2 years left on his ELC, he would still be viewed as the same player/prospect he is today by Murray. The difference though is no decision would have to be made because he wouldn't be exposed to waivers yet.

If he was one of the top prospects in the world his contract status right now would be irrelevant. Adding a year or two doesn't suddenly make him some superstar. The reality is much better youngsters are here and coming so he has been shoved down the pecking order.

I completely disagree. If he was brought in slowly, his confidence would be sky high, he could have worked on his game in junior and fans and management would be extremely high on him. And would still have 2 years left on ELC that he could play AHL if need be

Out of curiosity though(and I am actually wondering and Im not being an a@*) , where do you feel I am getting carried away? He was considered a top prospect when he was 18, he put up a ton of points in Junior, won awards and would have just gotten better in junior each season and fans love looking at player's high point totals when looking at stats

 

[joshjull]

I completely disagree. If he was brought in slowly, his confidence would be sky high, he could have worked on his game in junior and fans and management would be extremely high on him. And would still have 2 years left on ELC that he could play AHL if need be

He still would have been a work in progress. He's a player that needed a lot work (particularly his skating and defensive game) to reach his ceiling. That was always going to be the case regardless how his first two years were handled. I agree he would be viewed more positively by fans. But Murray would have had the same opinion. He's a long time scout and knows what he is.

Grigs would also still be behind other young centers; Eichel, Reinhart and Girgs. Thats not a knock on Grigs btw its just that those players are better.


EDIT: Where you're getting carried away is the extreme difference you see between the two scenarios.

 

[Zip15]

Thanks for info.

I agree that Grigo should be tendered at the minimum QO, but if the contract being 1-way or 2-way matters to Grigo, just give him the 1-way. We all know he'd be scooped up on waivers so hes not going to Rochester anyway.

I suppose the counterargument is that if he is so sure that he's going to be on NHL roster, be it Buffalo or elsewhere, then the two-way aspect is entirely irrelevant because he'll never be on an AHL roster this season. Thus, it'd make little sense for him to take his ball and run home over what would effectively be a red herring in his contract. I have to imagine he and his agent know he'll be on a NHL roster this year due to his waiver eligibility, which leads me to...

My guess (read: speculation) is that he wants a bridge deal like the one Foligno got last offseason after his ELC expired. Foligno got a 2yr/$3.75m (1.875 AAV), and he averaged 30 pts/82 games on his ELC--and if you take away his first callup, he was closer to 25 pts/82 games. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's asking for a two-year deal for around $3m (1.5 AAV) and the Sabres simply want him to sign his QO. Grigs and his agent probably believe this is a great deal for the Sabres if Grigs can break out this year, and that he warrants such a deal based on his AHL season and draft pedigree. We'll see who blinks.

 

[Djp]

Are you serious? Do you even remember the situation?

Regier had no clue what the rules were in the lockout shortened season. IIRC the contract kicked in before the 9 games it usually does so Regier kept him around after and ended up sending him back anyways not by design but because he had no ****ing clue what the rules were. The funny thing is posters like jfb and a few others around here had a better grasp on the situation than Regier did.

This is Regier and Ruff's fault.

It was a lockout shortened season so the rules on roster days/games played were different. Both Regier an the devils screwed this up and got caught not by the game count but the roster day count.

The games instead of 9 was 5 and the days were adjusted too. I dont recall the exact numbers. IR time doesn't count against the day count

They held him out when he got to 4 games picking a good game to use him. I think the plan all along was to send him back to juniors.

My gut feeling Regier called the league and asked on rules clarification on the days and was misinformed.

 

[joshjull]

I suppose the counterargument is that if he is so sure that he's going to be on NHL roster, be it Buffalo or elsewhere, then the two-way aspect is entirely irrelevant because he'll never be on an AHL roster this season. Thus, it'd make little sense for him to take his ball and run home over what would effectively be a red herring in his contract. I have to imagine he and his agent know he'll be on a NHL roster this year due to his waiver eligibility, which leads me to...

My guess (read: speculation) is that he wants a bridge deal like the one Foligno got last offseason after his ELC expired. Foligno got a 2yr/$3.75m (1.875 AAV), and he averaged 30 pts/82 games on his ELC--and if you take away his first callup, he was closer to 25 pts/82 games. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's asking for a two-year deal for around $3m (1.5 AAV) and the Sabres simply want him to sign his QO. Grigs and his agent probably believe this is a great deal for the Sabres if Grigs can break out this year, and that he warrants such a deal based on his AHL season and draft pedigree. We'll see who blinks.

Interesting take. That could work if Murray wants to commit beyond a year. Though I'm not sure what leverage Grigs side has in this. Plus, warts and all, Foligno has been a better NHLer than Grigs and is a player Murray is fond of. Grigs is kind of an after thought, if he is mentioned at all, when the future is discussed. Having said that, a two year deal would actually make Grigs a much more valuable asset in a trade going forward (if it came to that). I like the idea of him locked up for two years.

 

[Djp]

I suppose the counterargument is that if he is so sure that he's going to be on NHL roster, be it Buffalo or elsewhere, then the two-way aspect is entirely irrelevant because he'll never be on an AHL roster this season. Thus, it'd make little sense for him to take his ball and run home over what would effectively be a red herring in his contract. I have to imagine he and his agent know he'll be on a NHL roster this year due to his waiver eligibility, which leads me to...

My guess (read: speculation) is that he wants a bridge deal like the one Foligno got last offseason after his ELC expired. Foligno got a 2yr/$3.75m (1.875 AAV), and he averaged 30 pts/82 games on his ELC--and if you take away his first callup, he was closer to 25 pts/82 games. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's asking for a two-year deal for around $3m (1.5 AAV) and the Sabres simply want him to sign his QO. Grigs and his agent probably believe this is a great deal for the Sabres if Grigs can break out this year, and that he warrants such a deal based on his AHL season and draft pedigree. We'll see who blinks.

I agree the big issue is what money he gets on a 2 yr bridge contract using Foligno as a market baseline in what to ask for.

If he's used in a top 9 role healthy he will be 30+ in pts. If he is given a 4th role then the pts will suffer.

The same thing could happen with Larsson and his bridge contract. If he plays like he did to close the season he things he can be 40+ pts thus asking for $2M per.

 

[sabrebuild]

Now everyone will hate this idea, but, we could protect Grigs with a fat contract. Since the cap is not an issue, sign him to a two year deal for 4 million a year. If he makES the big team fine. If you want to send him to the ahl, the big price tag will scare most bottom feeding teams off. He takes the better money to skip the KHL and you get to let him grow another year in the A.

I know he hasn't earned it.... I know it might annoy some vets and the pecking order of salaries. But it would be an entertaining way to work around the waiver issue.

 

[Husko]

Now everyone will hate this idea, but, we could protect Grigs with a fat contract. Since the cap is not an issue, sign him to a two year deal for 4 million a year. If he makES the big team fine. If you want to send him to the ahl, the big price tag will scare most bottom feeding teams off. He takes the better money to skip the KHL and you get to let him grow another year in the A.

I know he hasn't earned it.... I know it might annoy some vets and the pecking order of salaries. But it would be an entertaining way to work around the waiver issue.

It would kill his trade value, but also wouldn't scare the bottom feeding teams off. They're probably welcome it as a way to get to the cap floor. He'd still get claimed

 

[sabrebuild]

It would kill his trade value, but also wouldn't scare the bottom feeding teams off. They're probably welcome it as a way to get to the cap floor. He'd still get claimed

I'm not so sure that a lot of teams are willing to pay 4 a year for a guy who couldn't force his way onto an nhl roster. Particularly for more than one year. Several garbage teams like Arizona can't spend the money. And teams like Toronto have similar issues of where do you put him.

Bump the figure up higher if u think its necessary, but I think the pool of teams who would even consider picking him up on waivers would become tiny.

As for his trade value, I don't think his trade value is worth much in the slightest anyway. His value as an asset is much more about his growth and development as a player than his cap hit. If he turns in 20 goal season next year cuz u did this and he found his game, his trade value jumps huge even with that contract.

 

[TehDoak]

With the new KHL transfer agreement can we simply loan him to the KHL without him passing through waivers?

That would be the best for all involved I'd imagine.

 

[Jussi]

With the new KHL transfer agreement can we simply loan him to the KHL without him passing through waivers?

That would be the best for all involved I'd imagine.

There isn't one. KHL representatives were very negative towards signing anything.

 

[Deevo]

Now everyone will hate this idea, but, we could protect Grigs with a fat contract. Since the cap is not an issue, sign him to a two year deal for 4 million a year. If he makES the big team fine. If you want to send him to the ahl, the big price tag will scare most bottom feeding teams off. He takes the better money to skip the KHL and you get to let him grow another year in the A.

I know he hasn't earned it.... I know it might annoy some vets and the pecking order of salaries. But it would be an entertaining way to work around the waiver issue.

Terrible move for the locker room. This just can't happen.

 

[Paxon]

I'm not Russian to judgment here. Like others have said, it could actually be the most ideal outcome for him to go to the KHL for a year or two and then return as a more ready player who could then either be inserted in the line-up or traded. In two years several of the guys filling spaces on this roster will be gone. Some youngsters will be fighting for spots by then, but an older player like Grigorenko would have a better shot.

 

[Jacob582]

With the new KHL transfer agreement can we simply loan him to the KHL without him passing through waivers?

That would be the best for all involved I'd imagine.

He could make a lot more by signing directly with a KHL team.

Slava Malamud tweeted that depending on the team he could fetch up to $3M a year easily.

 

[TehDoak]

Now everyone will hate this idea, but, we could protect Grigs with a fat contract. Since the cap is not an issue, sign him to a two year deal for 4 million a year. If he makES the big team fine. If you want to send him to the ahl, the big price tag will scare most bottom feeding teams off. He takes the better money to skip the KHL and you get to let him grow another year in the A.

I know he hasn't earned it.... I know it might annoy some vets and the pecking order of salaries. But it would be an entertaining way to work around the waiver issue.

You give Grigs 4M per what's Larsson going to want?

 

[dotcommunism]

With the new KHL transfer agreement can we simply loan him to the KHL without him passing through waivers?

That would be the best for all involved I'd imagine.

Loaning a player to a European league would be the exact same as loaning a player to the AHL, regarding waivers. A player whose waiver exemption has expired would have to pass through waivers to be assigned to any league that is not the NHL.

 

[sabrebuild]

You give Grigs 4M per what's Larsson going to want?

Like I said before it is probably unworkable in real terms. Tho you could be sneaky and sign Larsson to a normal deal first. And not for nothing, but just because a teammate is overpaid doesn't mean another player the leverage to demand am equivalent contract.

The bigger issue would be work place dissatisfaction. More of a fun thought experiment than something that has any chance of happening.