Gretzky vs Ovi/Crosby

[Connor McConnor]

After they traded him and received a 50goal 100 point center back in return you mean? It wasn't like they lost Gretzky and didn't add back.

The Oilers were still stacked and wait a second.. who did the Oilers lose to in the playoffs the year after the trade again?

Okay? So did Gretz only win 4 because he played on a stacked team? I don't think you're making the point you think you are.

He's a pretty good example of how one player can't win you a Cup. 2 top 10 players? I like those odds better, even if it's against the GOAT.

 

[WalterLundy]

Ovi and Crosby, this isn't even close.

Lemieux has basically the same ppg, the same best season and yet Gretzky is the only talent like that in the world? Lemieux disproves this. If Gretzky on his own was that good, he would've won with LA, he didn't.

He played with five OTHER hall of famers, Crosby had Malkin who is a lock and maybe one of MAF/Letang. Chicago had 2, maybe 3 hall of famers when they won 3 cups. Gretzky's "lone dominance" is overstated, he could not on his own will a team to a cup.

Lemieux doesn’t have close to the same PPG as Gretzky unless you are comparing careers of 915 games to 1487 games. Even then it’s Gretzky without the luxury of ppg preservation due to only playing 170 games clearly post prime compared to the 562 Gretzky did. We are talking prime here. Everyone can define that differently but I think most would agree Gretzky’s prime ended after the 90-91. He’d have been on a slow decline after that but the Suter hit gave it an abrupt end. Lemieux’s prime in my opinion ended in 95-96 although he was virtually the same in the second half of 96 and first half of 97. I’d count either season as the end of prime for him. I saw him play those seasons and while he wasn’t at his peak anymore it would still be 100% be prime range.

From ‘80-‘91 Gretzky averaged 2.32 ppg and Lemieux from ‘85-‘97 (up to retirement) averaged 2.01 ppg. 925 games to 745. In Gretzky’s first 745 games his ppg was at 2.38. A 25-31 point gap per 82 games is a different tier.

This also holds true for best season. Especially when you look at years and compare them without clear gaps in games played. With both playing 70% or above:

Wayne Gretzky ‘83-‘84: 57 GP: 73 G, 98 A, 171 PTS (3.0 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘84-‘85: 60 GP: 60 G, 107 A, 167 PTS (2.78 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘81-‘82: 64 GP: 79 G, 97 A, 176 PTS (2.75 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘85-‘86: 68 GP: 48 G, 139 A, 187 PTS (2.75 PPG)
Mario Lemieux ‘88-‘89: 62 GP: 65 G, 104 A, 169 PTS (2.73 PPG)
Mario Lemieux ‘92-‘93: 58 GP: 67 G, 90 A, 157 PTS (2.71 PPG)

Their best paces are still over 20 points apart and Lemieux couldn’t win without a stacked team either.

Just for the record not only would I take prime Gretzky alone over Crosby/Ovi but I’d take prime Lemieux over the duo as well. They both are just that much better that they overcome the duo. One is clearly better than the other though. Am old enough to have seen the entirety of both careers.

 

[Crow]

Ovi and Crosby, this isn't even close.

Lemieux has basically the same ppg, the same best season and yet Gretzky is the only talent like that in the world? Lemieux disproves this. If Gretzky on his own was that good, he would've won with LA, he didn't.

He played with five OTHER hall of famers, Crosby had Malkin who is a lock and maybe one of MAF/Letang. Chicago had 2, maybe 3 hall of famers when they won 3 cups. Gretzky's "lone dominance" is overstated, he could not on his own will a team to a cup.

Chicago had at least 4. Kane Toews Keith Hossa

 

[NVious]

Lemieux doesn’t have close to the same PPG as Gretzky unless you are comparing careers of 915 games to 1487 games. Even then it’s Gretzky without the luxury of ppg preservation due to only playing 170 games clearly post prime compared to the 562 Gretzky did. We are talking prime here. Everyone can define that differently but I think most would agree Gretzky’s prime ended after the 90-91. He’d have been on a slow decline after that but the Suter hit gave it an abrupt end. Lemieux’s prime in my opinion ended in 95-96 although he was virtually the same in the second half of 96 and first half of 97. I’d count either season as the end of prime for him. I saw him play those seasons and while he wasn’t at his peak anymore it would still be 100% be prime range.

From ‘80-‘91 Gretzky averaged 2.32 ppg and Lemieux from ‘85-‘97 (up to retirement) averaged 2.01 ppg. 925 games to 745. In Gretzky’s first 745 games his ppg was at 2.38. A 25-31 point gap per 82 games is a different tier.

This also holds true for best season. Especially when you look at years and compare them without clear gaps in games played. With both playing 70% or above:

Wayne Gretzky ‘83-‘84: 57 GP: 73 G, 98 A, 171 PTS (3.0 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘84-‘85: 60 GP: 60 G, 107 A, 167 PTS (2.78 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘81-‘82: 64 GP: 79 G, 97 A, 176 PTS (2.75 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘85-‘86: 68 GP: 48 G, 139 A, 187 PTS (2.75 PPG)
Mario Lemieux ‘88-‘89: 62 GP: 65 G, 104 A, 169 PTS (2.73 PPG)
Mario Lemieux ‘92-‘93: 58 GP: 67 G, 90 A, 157 PTS (2.71 PPG)

Their best paces are still over 20 points apart and Lemieux couldn’t win without a stacked team either.

Just for the record not only would I take prime Gretzky alone over Crosby/Ovi but I’d take prime Lemieux over the duo as well. They both are just that much better that they overcome the duo. One is clearly better than the other though. Am old enough to have seen the entirety of both careers.

So he doesn't, unless you look at their careers....lol.

Funny how you adjust for injuries on the back end of Gretzky's career, but you fail to bring up that Gretzky's totals came where the average gpg was nearly 8 and Lemieux's in an era where goal scoring was down to nearly 5 a game.

And you'd be dead wrong for that as well, Ovechkin is going to pass Gretzky and Crosby is likely going to pass Lemieux, but 1>2 somehow? If Gretzky was such a talent, how come he never won without 5 hall of famers helping him? You're also old enough to let nostalgia sway you.

 

[Video Nasty]

So he doesn't, unless you look at their careers....lol.

Funny how you adjust for injuries on the back end of Gretzky's career, but you fail to bring up that Gretzky's totals came where the average gpg was nearly 8 and Lemieux's in an era where goal scoring was down to nearly 5 a game.

If you really want to look at their careers, you would notice how Gretzky beat Lemieux to every goal and point milestone in terms of fewest games, achieved more, and actually did the fantasy totals that Lemieux was projected for numerous times in the real world.

Funny enough, he did this despite Lemieux having the head start of the higher scoring environment impacting their totals after their first 80 games during his rookie campaign season (7.78) compared to Gretzky’s own rookie season (7.00).

But somehow, I don’t think you really want to do that. At the heart of nearly every Lemieux over Gretzky argument is relying on things that never happened, what if scenarios that exist only in our minds, and ignoring the simple reality that we’re talking about the student (Lemieux) who didn’t harness his talent until he was taught by the master (Gretzky).

As for your point about adjusting for totals one way or another…you don’t think the bolded is disingenuous?

Lemieux played a mere 10 games in 2003-2004 where scoring was down to what you mentioned (5.14). He played 91 games the two years prior (2001-2002 and 2002-2003), where scoring was a little higher. He only played 170 games total from 2000-2001 through 2005-2006.

In fact, he only played 170 games past the age of 31. His averages didn’t get hurt to nearly the degree they would have if he played the 488 games that Gretzky did post 31. Gretzky played 152 games in 1997-1998 and 1998-1999 which was the same exact scoring environment as 2001-2002 and 2002-2003. Even then, Gretzky had his numbers impacted more than what you’re trying to portray for Lemieux.

Gretzky may have “enjoyed” a few more higher scoring seasons before Lemieux showed up (1980-1981 through 1983-1984), but these are not players separated by 15-20 years or more. Gretzky had a direct influence on Lemieux and it is being willingly ignorant to stack the deck in terms of what ifs and benefits so heavily in Lemieux’s court just because Gretzky was so good he needs to have a handicap rule placed on him.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Funny how you adjust for injuries on the back end of Gretzky's career, but you fail to bring up that Gretzky's totals came where the average gpg was nearly 8 and Lemieux's in an era where goal scoring was down to nearly 5 a game.

This is nonsense.

It looks like you took the season with the highest GPG from Gretzky's career, and compared it to the season with lowest GPG from Lemieux's career. (And that was in a season where Lemieux played all of 10 games). This is a stunningly misleading approach.

If you calculate the leaguewide average goals per game (weighted by games played) during both of their careers - it was 7.01 for Gretzky, and 6.83 for Lemieux. Less than a 3% difference.

Therefore, even if we make this adjustment, Gretzky and Lemieux still have essentially the same career GPG, just that Gretzky maintained that average while playing 479 games at/after age 32, compared to only 170 games for Lemieux.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Lemieux doesn’t have close to the same PPG as Gretzky unless you are comparing careers of 915 games to 1487 games. Even then it’s Gretzky without the luxury of ppg preservation due to only playing 170 games clearly post prime compared to the 562 Gretzky did. We are talking prime here. Everyone can define that differently but I think most would agree Gretzky’s prime ended after the 90-91. He’d have been on a slow decline after that but the Suter hit gave it an abrupt end. Lemieux’s prime in my opinion ended in 95-96 although he was virtually the same in the second half of 96 and first half of 97. I’d count either season as the end of prime for him. I saw him play those seasons and while he wasn’t at his peak anymore it would still be 100% be prime range.

From ‘80-‘91 Gretzky averaged 2.32 ppg and Lemieux from ‘85-‘97 (up to retirement) averaged 2.01 ppg. 925 games to 745. In Gretzky’s first 745 games his ppg was at 2.38. A 25-31 point gap per 82 games is a different tier.

This also holds true for best season. Especially when you look at years and compare them without clear gaps in games played. With both playing 70% or above:

Wayne Gretzky ‘83-‘84: 57 GP: 73 G, 98 A, 171 PTS (3.0 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘84-‘85: 60 GP: 60 G, 107 A, 167 PTS (2.78 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘81-‘82: 64 GP: 79 G, 97 A, 176 PTS (2.75 PPG)
Wayne Gretzky ‘85-‘86: 68 GP: 48 G, 139 A, 187 PTS (2.75 PPG)
Mario Lemieux ‘88-‘89: 62 GP: 65 G, 104 A, 169 PTS (2.73 PPG)
Mario Lemieux ‘92-‘93: 58 GP: 67 G, 90 A, 157 PTS (2.71 PPG)

Their best paces are still over 20 points apart and Lemieux couldn’t win without a stacked team either.

Just for the record not only would I take prime Gretzky alone over Crosby/Ovi but I’d take prime Lemieux over the duo as well. They both are just that much better that they overcome the duo. One is clearly better than the other though. Am old enough to have seen the entirety of both careers.

80-91 and 85-97 are not the same scoring levels.

 

[WalterLundy]

So he doesn't, unless you look at their careers....lol.

Funny how you adjust for injuries on the back end of Gretzky's career, but you fail to bring up that Gretzky's totals came where the average gpg was nearly 8 and Lemieux's in an era where goal scoring was down to nearly 5 a game.

And you'd be dead wrong for that as well, Ovechkin is going to pass Gretzky and Crosby is likely going to pass Lemieux, but 1>2 somehow? If Gretzky was such a talent, how come he never won without 5 hall of famers helping him? You're also old enough to let nostalgia sway you.

‘80-‘91 G/GP: 3.77

‘85-‘97 G/GP: 3.54 (excludes 94-95 as Lemieux sat out)

Number 2 through 20 in points per game averaged to 82 games ‘80-‘91: 113 per 82

Number 2 through 20 in points per game averaged to 82 games ‘85-‘97: 112 per 82
(Once again excluding 94-95)

Lemieux’s 745 game career (and prime) was 94% of Gretzky’s for league wide goals per game. Still a tier difference gap per full season. League scoring would have needed to be at 3.2 for Lemieux and Gretzky to be more or less equals for league scoring “adjustments” which 3.2 is virtually what we saw last year. When you look at more pertinent info like how the elite scorers for each period you see that it is a 99 percent match.

Any time games are made even for Gretzky and Lemieux there is a massive gap. You can go season by season or by games played. Prime for prime and peak for peak as well. It’s always between 20 and 35 points difference per 82 games for pace.

If Ovechkin passes Gretzky in goals it’ll
be in more than 1487 games. Gretzky at Ovechkin’s current games played had 875 goals (40 more). I don’t even care if people think Ovechkin is a better goal scorer. Gretzky had 718 in 925. Lemieux 690 in 915. Both would have crossed 1000 easily and Ovi wouldn’t be a conversation right now if things went right for them both for a full career.

Crosby passing Mario in points will also be relatively unimpressive. He currently has 169 less points in 324 more games.

80-91 and 85-97 are not the same scoring levels.

‘80-‘91 G/GP: 3.77

‘85-‘97 G/GP: 3.54 (excludes 94-95 as Lemieux sat out)

Number 2 through 20 in points per game averaged to 82 games ‘80-‘91: 113 per 82

Number 2 through 20 in points per game averaged to 82 games ‘85-‘97: 112 per 82 (Once again excluding 94-95)


You’re technically right. They aren’t the same but they are so close to each other that it makes a very negligible difference. Not nearly enough to make it close enough.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Ovechkin passes Gretzky in goals it’ll
be in more than 1487 games. Gretzky at Ovechkin’s current games played had 875 goals (40 more). I don’t even care if people think Ovechkin is a better goal scorer. Gretzky had 718 in 925. Lemieux 690 in 915. Both would have crossed 1000 easily and Ovi wouldn’t be a conversation right now if things went right for them both for a full career.

Crosby passing Mario in points will also be unimpressive. He currently has 169 less points in 324 more games.

I'm pretty sure the scoring environment was a bit difference for the current generation vs the 80s and early 90s generation.

 

[PM88RU]

If you watched the 1987 Canada Cup, Gretzky was on a different level, as was Mario vs Krutov,Larionov,Makarov,Fetisov,Kasatonov of the USSR.
Ovechkin isn't Wayne!

If not for the officiating, the result of 1987 Canada Cup could’ve been just opposite. I’ve watched the games in record, and KLM line was at least no worse than Gretzky’s line, with all the respect to the Great one.

I’d still go with prime Ovi+prime Crosby, but one’d have to apply them properly. Once you find good players to surround both lines, it would be a hardest task to defend against a team like that.

 

[WalterLundy]

I'm pretty sure the scoring environment was a bit difference for the current generation vs the 80s and early 90s generation.

For sure. I have no issue giving Ovi the label of best goal scorer for a career. Especially with era considered. I just thought peak and prime Gretzky and Mario were better at goal scoring all things considered.

My only contention is that with full health they’d both have over 1000 and a new record wouldn’t be feasible. Have to go with what happened though.

 

[Video Nasty]

The adjusted stats junkies still haven’t figured out how to properly explain away Gretzky routinely winning his scoring races by 75 points year in and year out.

“Scoring was 10% higher for Gretzky in seasons 2-5 of his career compared to Lemieux’s seasons 2-5! That explains why Gretzky won a scoring race 196-124 and 205-126.”

But hey, most seem to be cool with just pretending it all didn’t happen, so whatever.

 

[authentic]

If not for the officiating, the result of 1987 Canada Cup could’ve been just opposite. I’ve watched the games in record, and KLM line was at least no worse than Gretzky’s line, with all the respect to the Great one.

I’d still go with prime Ovi+prime Crosby, but one’d have to apply them properly. Once you find good players to surround both lines, it would be a hardest task to defend against a team like that.

I own the 87 Canada Cup and this is true. The reffing was biased in favour of Canada and the KLM line was basically as good as Lemieux and Gretzky were. Of course they had the added benefit of years of chemistry playing together at that point but still, their skill and IQ did not seem to be lacking to anyone on Canada. Wish we could’ve seen them in the NHL in the 80s.

 

[WalterLundy]

The adjusted stats junkies still haven’t figured out how to properly explain away Gretzky routinely winning his scoring races by 75 points year in and year out.

“Scoring was 10% higher for Gretzky in seasons 2-5 of his career compared to Lemieux’s seasons 2-5! That explains why Gretzky won a scoring race 196-124 and 205-126.”

But hey, most seem to be cool with just pretending it all didn’t happen, so whatever.

It’s just because he’s better than their favorite players by a clear margin at worst even with using fake numbers.

You have to remember that Gretzky only was who he was because of the hall of fame cast in Edmonton. During his Edmonton Oilers tenure he only scored a measly 1669 points in 696 games. Jari Kurri at second place in points during that span with 848 in 600 games is the reason why. The per 82 game averages of the 80-88 Oilers are Gretzky at 197, Kurri at 116, Coffey at 103, Anderson at 96 and Messier at 95. That stacked cast being doubled up by Gretzky is the reason why Wayne was able to be that good. That’s what we must believe.

It’s not like in 1981 he dominated his teammates by an unmatched margin as only a 19 year old who ended the season with 107 in his last 44 games for a 200 pace with Brett Callighen as the teams next best producer in the span on a second year expansion team. Or doing what he did in 1982 with 212 to 105. Him having 774 points in 388 combined games (2 points per game) for the ‘80 and ‘81 seasons plus the first 3 LA years ‘89-‘91 as a player about to enter/about to exit his prime show us that he was destined to be way worse than he actually was from 82-88 at his zenith and was made entirely by the Hall of famers he doubled up throughout.

 

[Video Nasty]

It’s just because he’s better than their favorite players by a clear margin at worst even with using fake numbers.

You have to remember that Gretzky only was who he was because of the hall of fame cast in Edmonton. During his Edmonton Oilers tenure he only scored a measly 1669 points in 696 games. Jari Kurri at second place in points during that span with 848 in 600 games is the reason why. The per 82 game averages of the 80-88 Oilers are Gretzky at 197, Kurri at 116, Coffey at 103, Anderson at 96 and Messier at 95. That stacked cast being doubled up by Gretzky is the reason why Wayne was able to be that good. That’s what we must believe.

It’s not like in 1981 he dominated his teammates by an unmatched margin as only a 19 year old who ended the season with 107 in his last 44 games for a 200 pace with Brett Callighen as the teams next best producer in the span on a second year expansion team. Or doing what he did in 1982 with 212 to 105. Him having 774 points in 388 combined games (2 points per game) for the ‘80 and ‘81 seasons plus the first 3 LA years ‘89-‘91 as a player about to enter/about to exit his prime show us that he was destined to be way worse than he actually was from 82-88 at his zenith and was made entirely by the Hall of famers he doubled up throughout.

These are all great points and it’s kind of crazy the lengths some will go to in the attempts to dismiss such continued, sustained dominance as something that happened just because of a higher scoring environment.

We all rightfully went gaga when McDavid finished 25 points ahead of his teammate in the scoring race and 40 points clear of the closest non-teammate, but Gretzky torched his peers to a much greater degree and people want to make up excuses why basically ever since it happened?

McDavid dropped 153 last year and there’s an outside chance that two players could notch 140 points this year. From 1980-1981 through 1984-1985, only one other player than Gretzky crossed 140 points, Bossy with 147 points, which was good enough to finish 65 points behind Gretzky. Gretzky had 164, 212, 196, 205, and 208. Sometimes his teammates were second in scoring, sometimes they were not. He typically blasted the runner up to the tune of 75 points either way.

Yes, we saw more instances of people inside that 130-139 range than we do today, but it’s clear that Gretzky was a different animal winning races by 50% or more on players with that many points to begin with.

We’re talking about a player who alone accounts for half of the 140 point or higher seasons, and half of his instances doing so are at a level 40-50% higher than even that.

 

[wetcoast]

The adjusted stats junkies still haven’t figured out how to properly explain away Gretzky routinely winning his scoring races by 75 points year in and year out.

This isn't rocket science here for those who watched the 80s as Gretzky, aside from being the best player of all time IMO also played on teams that regularly ran up the score.

Let's just look at the GF the season that Gretzky scored 212 points.

1985-86 Edmonton Oilers Schedule | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Edmonton Oilers Schedule and Results for regular season, playoffs and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Comapred last season where McDavid hit 153 points.

2022-23 Edmonton Oilers Schedule | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Edmonton Oilers Schedule and Results for regular season, playoffs and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

McDavid played in one game where his team scored 8 goals in 85-86 Gretzky's Oilers had games with these goal totals.

13 X1
12 X2
9 X3
8 X 9

“Scoring was 10% higher for Gretzky in seasons 2-5 of his career compared to Lemieux’s seasons 2-5! That explains why Gretzky won a scoring race 196-124 and 205-126.”

But hey, most seem to be cool with just pretending it all didn’t happen, so whatever.

No need to be flippant about it the fact is that when one combines the best player of all time with the best circumstances one will get the best scoring results and video game numbers.

 

[Video Nasty]

This isn't rocket science here for those who watched the 80s as Gretzky, aside from being the best player of all time IMO also played on teams that regularly ran up the score.

Let's just look at the GF the season that Gretzky scored 212 points.

1985-86 Edmonton Oilers Schedule | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Edmonton Oilers Schedule and Results for regular season, playoffs and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Comapred last season where McDavid hit 153 points.

2022-23 Edmonton Oilers Schedule | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Edmonton Oilers Schedule and Results for regular season, playoffs and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

McDavid played in one game where his team scored 8 goals in 85-86 Gretzky's Oilers had games with these goal totals.

13 X1
12 X2
9 X3
8 X 9

No need to be flippant about it the fact is that when one combines the best player of all time with the best circumstances one will get the best scoring results and video game numbers.

I’m seeing a player who had 62 more points for a team that scored 100 more goals and was hyper focused on passing first because his personal goal to toy with the game was averaging two assists per game. He finished 74 points ahead of Lemieux in the scoring race who was on a team that scored a similar number of goals as last season’s Oilers.

I have this theory that Gretzky might have had something to do with the Oilers scoring a bunch of goals.

 

[wetcoast]

I’m seeing a player who had 62 more points for a team that scored 100 more goals and was hyper focused on passing first because his personal goal to toy with the game was averaging two assists per game. He finished 74 points ahead of Lemieux in the scoring race who was on a team that scored a similar number of goals as last season’s Oilers.

I have this theory that Gretzky might have had something to do with the Oilers scoring a bunch of goals.

sure that's great but people who were around at the time also understand the perfect storm of gretzky being the best player of all time, his intense commitment to being the best all of the time and the perfect system in which to execute those scoring totals.

Put another way there is zero chance gretzky could score 200 points today and heck even 170 to 180 would be probably impossible.

I say this as someone who has Gretzky as the best player of all time not some young kid.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The adjusted stats junkies still haven’t figured out how to properly explain away Gretzky routinely winning his scoring races by 75 points year in and year out.

“Scoring was 10% higher for Gretzky in seasons 2-5 of his career compared to Lemieux’s seasons 2-5! That explains why Gretzky won a scoring race 196-124 and 205-126.”

But hey, most seem to be cool with just pretending it all didn’t happen, so whatever.

I support adjusted stats, but I am baffled by anyone who thinks they make any sort of big difference for two players whose careers overlapped for all but 160 of Lemieux's games played.

 

[WalterLundy]

sure that's great but people who were around at the time also understand the perfect storm of gretzky being the best player of all time, his intense commitment to being the best all of the time and the perfect system in which to execute those scoring totals.

Put another way there is zero chance gretzky could score 200 points today and heck even 170 to 180 would be probably impossible.

I say this as someone who has Gretzky as the best player of all time not some young kid.

The oilers in 1981 scored 328 goals and in 1984 had 446. If you use the percentage of goals Gretzky was in on in both years, the ‘81 19 year old Gretzky would have scored 223 on the ‘84 Oilers. That’s 2 points more than Gretzky’s peak pace for the 74 he played that year. There are far crazier examples we can use than that to show that it doesn’t necessarily work (even though I don’t even think thats what you were getting at).

I do personally believe that 170-180 would be possible for Gretzky today but I also understand how hard it really is to predict. I also have doubts because todays game is very good in my view.

In your opinion what do you think Gretzky would put up at his peak today? A better question is actually what do you think the limit is for a player in todays game? McDavid did 153 and actually had a stretch of 84 straight games at 167 points (1.99 PPG) from the end of ‘22 to late in the season last year. Curious to see what you believe is the limit in todays game.

 

[wetcoast]

The oilers in 1981 scored 328 goals and in 1984 had 446. If you use the percentage of goals Gretzky was in on in both years, the ‘81 19 year old Gretzky would have scored 223 on the ‘84 Oilers. That’s 2 points more than Gretzky’s peak pace for the 74 he played that year. There are far crazier examples we can use than that to show that it doesn’t necessarily work (even though I don’t even think thats what you were getting at).

It wasn't exactly what I was getting at as my main point is that hockey ahs changed so much and teams don't run up the score the way the Oilers did and to a lesser extent the Penguins.

In a nutshell the video game numbers blinds some people to the differences and my big problem is actual impact in winning games, more so Mario than Wayne at their peaks.

I do personally believe that 170-180 would be possible for Gretzky today but I also understand how hard it really is to predict. I also have doubts because todays game is very good in my view.

I have my doubts as well and instead of focusing on an absolute possible best season I'd take a 5 year approach or 3 year peak or 7 year prime.

Maybe in a one off year, if his coach said just go out there and we don't care about goals against Gretzky could get 170 or 180 but put him directly onto McDavid's Oilers I'm not entirely sure we get more than a year or even 2 above 160 that's how much the dynamic of the game has changed.

In your opinion what do you think Gretzky would put up at his peak today? A better question is actually what do you think the limit is for a player in todays game? McDavid did 153 and actually had a stretch of 84 straight games at 167 points (1.99 PPG) from the end of ‘22 to late in the season last year. Curious to see what you believe is the limit in todays game.

I'm not going to say that Gretzky couldn't score 167 points in a hypothetical best 82 game stretch today but I'm also not going to say that he absolutely passes that mark either.

If I was a betting man I would say that the likelihood of anyone in history being able to score more than 160 points last season would be extremely small.

 

[Fatass]

It wasn't exactly what I was getting at as my main point is that hockey ahs changed so much and teams don't run up the score the way the Oilers did and to a lesser extent the Penguins.

In a nutshell the video game numbers blinds some people to the differences and my big problem is actual impact in winning games, more so Mario than Wayne at their peaks.


I have my doubts as well and instead of focusing on an absolute possible best season I'd take a 5 year approach or 3 year peak or 7 year prime.

Maybe in a one off year, if his coach said just go out there and we don't care about goals against Gretzky could get 170 or 180 but put him directly onto McDavid's Oilers I'm not entirely sure we get more than a year or even 2 above 160 that's how much the dynamic of the game has changed.

I'm not going to say that Gretzky couldn't score 167 points in a hypothetical best 82 game stretch today but I'm also not going to say that he absolutely passes that mark either.

If I was a betting man I would say that the likelihood of anyone in history being able to score more than 160 points last season would be extremely small.

Prime Gretzky scores 200 + points in this era. Prime Mario scores 200 points in this era. Prime Orr scores 200 points in this era.

 

[wetcoast]

Prime Gretzky scores 200 + points in this era. Prime Mario scores 200 points in this era. Prime Orr scores 200 points in this era.

I will disagree especially since Mario never actually scored 200 and Orr's highest was 139.

Funny but this way of thinking reminds me of how many more points EK65 was going to score this year compared to last year.

it's easy to just throw thing out there but in reality it's not only hard to prove, it's hard to make a very good argument for what you are saying here.

I'll take Orr as the easy example as he was probably on the ice for a higher % of his teams goals than either Mario or Gretzky at his absolute peak.

In 70-71 Orr scored his highest ever total of 139 points and the Bruins scored 399 goals.
Put another way Orr was on the ice for 62.2% of all the Bruin goals scored that year.

Last season the Oilers led the NHL with 325 goals.

62% of that would mean that Orr would have been on the ice for 202 goals but why would one even assume that he would have points on virtually every single goal.

Maybe an Orr on last years Oilers scores more than 325 goals but for Orr to get 200 points in a season we would have to take him at his best performance that we have and then find another what 100 or 150 team goals maybe more?

The argument just isn't there.

 

[nowhereman]

Prime Gretzky scores 200 + points in this era. Prime Mario scores 200 points in this era. Prime Orr scores 200 points in this era.

So Gretzky, Lemieux, and defenseman Bobby Orr are all about equal offensively? And they're all going to score 200+ points in a significantly more evolved league where parity amongst players is at an all-time high? And Lemieux, in particular, is going to better his late-80s totals?

Interesting. Very interesting.

 

[Fatass]

So Gretzky, Lemieux, and defenseman Bobby Orr are all about equal offensively? And they're all going to score 200+ points in a significantly more evolved league where parity amongst players is at an all-time high? And Lemieux, in particular, is going to better his late-80s totals?

Interesting. Very interesting.

How many teams now? Watered down product. Lots of guys now would be in the A years ago. Plus the game was mean and full of hooking and holding. Now it’s a watered down product with no interference. Gretzky might get 250. Lemeuix too. Orr would dominate.