Grand Rapids Griffins 17-18

[Henkka]

I'm getting concerned by the Red Wings' draft approach.

Bertuzzi - Skating isn't awful, but it's definitely not a plus.
Frk - Skating is below average.
Turgeon - Skating is below average.
Holmstrom - Skating is below average.

Is this the "trend setting" thing that Wright was talking about?

You seem to like trolling people, but be careful. Facts should be right or you will be busted pretty quickly.

Bertuzzi, Frk and Holmström were drafted by Jim Nill/Joe McDonnel. Don't know about their trends, looks like they liked more of midget skill.


Turgeon looked good skater for a big guy, better than Sheahan on my eye against the Blackhawks.

 

[Redder Winger]

You seem to like trolling people, but be careful. Facts should be right or you will be busted pretty quickly.

Bertuzzi, Frk and Holmström were drafted by Jim Nill/Joe McDonnel. Don't know about their trends, looks like they liked more of midget skill.


Turgeon looked good skater for a big guy, better than Sheahan on my eye against the Blackhawks.

Good point about the previous AGM's picks.
But no, Turgeon does not skate anywhere near as well as Sheahan. Skating (heavy feet) has been his issue as long as I've known him.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Good point about the previous AGM's picks.
But no, Turgeon does not skate anywhere near as well as Sheahan. Skating (heavy feet) has been his issue as long as I've known him.

Turgeon is technically a much better skater than Sheahan. His posture is far more athletic, he has a much longer, more efficient stride, is stronger on his edges and perhaps a bit quicker laterally. This doesn't make him a great skater for his size based upon NHL standards, but if your metric is Riley, he comes out on top in a lot of ways in that department.

 

[Redder Winger]

Turgeon is technically a much better skater than Sheahan. His posture is far more athletic, he has a much longer, more efficient stride, is stronger on his edges and perhaps a bit quicker laterally. This doesn't make him a great skater for his size based upon NHL standards, but if your metric is Riley, he comes out on top in a lot of ways in that department.

I totally disagree:
If Sheahan wasn't a good skater, he'd be in the AHL.

Where Turgeon really suffers is those first few steps.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I totally disagree:
If Sheahan wasn't a good skater, he'd be in the AHL.

Where Turgeon really suffers is those first few steps.

100% agree with this. I do think Turgeon is making gains in his skating though.

If Turgeon skated as well as Sheahan he might have likewise been a first round pick.

Fairly similar players, hopefully Turgeon works out a little better for us.

 

[newfy]

I know the offense isnt there but with his work ethic I could see Shine getting a shot at a 4th line role some day. I think he could be a Glendening level of player, which isnt great but is still an NHL solid role player.

I doubt he ever gets a chance but his last year of college he scored quite a bit and whenever I've watched him I thought he could maybe get a cup of coffee in the NHL

 

[Martinez]

How has hicketts been this year? A lot of us wanted him to make the wings this season after his pre season performance.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

How has hicketts been this year? A lot of us wanted him to make the wings this season after his pre season performance.

Regressed. Or maybe he just got passed up by better players (hronek)

 

[GrGriffins]

How has hicketts been this year? A lot of us wanted him to make the wings this season after his pre season performance.

Hicketts had a rough start here in GR this season (so did pretty much the rest of the team). Teams are targeting him and he is starting to get back to his form from last season. Still has some trouble at times with puck in the corners in his own end, but he still keeps on chugging along. Still not afraid to give a big hit for his size. Most likely will be the first d-man to get a lengthy look in Detroit if the Wings is out of the playoff picture. Russo has not had a good season here in GR and Hronek is a good point producer at the point position, but he need to learn to play defense, especially in the defensive end of the ice.

 

[GrGriffins]

Milwaukee Admirals 4 at Grand Rapids Griffins 3 - Status: Final
Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - Van Andel Arena

Milwaukee 0 1 3 - 4
Grand Rapids 1 1 1 - 3

1st Period-1, Grand Rapids, Street 7 (Puempel, Hronek), 5:48. Penalties-Zolnierczyk Mil (hooking), 1:14; Svechnikov Gr (high-sticking), 10:40; Lorito Gr (goaltender interference), 15:06; Carrier Mil (interference), 17:22.

2nd Period-2, Grand Rapids, Puempel 15 (Lorito, Street), 9:31 (PP). 3, Milwaukee, Butler 18 (Carrier, Oligny), 16:58. Penalties-Elson Gr (tripping), 2:58; Pettersson Mil (hooking), 7:58; Butler Mil (tripping), 8:31; Russo Gr (tripping), 11:57; Bass Mil (checking to the head), 18:52.

3rd Period-4, Milwaukee, Butler 19 3:30 (SH). 5, Milwaukee, Zolnierczyk 14 (Butler), 4:24. 6, Milwaukee, Murphy 5 (Granberg, Zengerle), 13:22. 7, Grand Rapids, Tangradi 13 (Ford, Russo), 19:54. Penalties-Zolnierczyk Mil (high-sticking), 1:46; Moy Mil (interference), 6:14.

Shots on Goal-Milwaukee 7-10-7-24. Grand Rapids 10-7-14-31.
Power Play Opportunities-Milwaukee 0 / 4; Grand Rapids 1 / 7.
Goalies-Milwaukee, Lindback 18-6-3 (31 shots-28 saves). Grand Rapids, Coreau 14-10-2 (24 shots-20 saves).
A-6,420
Referees-Andrew Bruggeman (22), Tim Mayer (19).
Linesmen-Pat Richardson (67), Logan Wetekamp (1).

 

[Redder Winger]

Grand Rapids Griffins 5 at Milwaukee Admirals 2 - Status: Final
Friday, January 19, 2018 - UW-Milwaukee Panther Arena

Grand Rapids 3 2 0 - 5
Milwaukee 0 2 0 - 2

1st Period-1, Grand Rapids, Elkins 7 (Ford), 15:24 (SH). 2, Grand Rapids, Tangradi 14 (Saarijarvi, Shine), 16:36. 3, Grand Rapids, Hicketts 2 (Russo, Holmstrom), 19:49 (PP). Penalties-Renouf Gr (fighting), 6:42; Bass Mil (fighting), 6:42; Renouf Gr (hooking), 13:52; Dougherty Mil (hooking), 18:14.

2nd Period-4, Milwaukee, Kirkland 1 (Zengerle), 9:33 (SH). 5, Grand Rapids, Ford 16 (Svechnikov, Russo), 10:22 (PP). 6, Milwaukee, Richard 11 (Dougherty, Zengerle), 11:59. 7, Grand Rapids, Tangradi 15 (Street, Puempel), 19:47. Penalties-Hronek Gr (cross-checking), 0:29; Butler Mil (hooking), 9:12.

3rd Period- No Scoring.Penalties-Lorito Gr (slashing), 7:54; Puempel Gr (roughing), 19:35; Labrie Mil (cross-checking), 19:35; Saarijarvi Gr (holding), 19:47.

Shots on Goal-Grand Rapids 16-6-7-29. Milwaukee 7-14-10-31.
Power Play Opportunities-Grand Rapids 2 / 2; Milwaukee 0 / 4.
Goalies-Grand Rapids, McCollum 6-8-3 (31 shots-29 saves). Milwaukee, Lindback 18-7-3 (29 shots-24 saves).
A-9,444
Referees-Andrew Bruggeman (22), Andrew Thackaberry (4).
Linesmen-Tyler Gregory (66), Rhodes Dolan (68).

A couple points for some prospects-but boy am I tired of Tangradi, Ford, Elkins, Street, etc

 

[Claypool]

A couple points for some prospects-but boy am I tired of Tangradi, Ford, Elkins, Street, etc

I get it, but Bertuzzi, Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Turgeon and Frk are all on the big club. You can't have replacement prospects ready to go every season. Rasmussen, Cholowski, Smith and a few others will likely be in GR next year.

 

[ChadS]

 

[Henkka]

I get it, but Bertuzzi, Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Turgeon and Frk are all on the big club. You can't have replacement prospects ready to go every season. Rasmussen, Cholowski, Smith and a few others will likely be in GR next year.

Rasmussen can't be, still junior aged and drafted from WHL. I think he'll start from Detroit and never sees Griffins.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

A couple points for some prospects-but boy am I tired of Tangradi, Ford, Elkins, Street, etc

The Grand Rapids Griffins are an organization in their own right and not just a Red Wings play toy. I am tired of looking at it like that. Guys like Tangradi helped give Bert two more months of development and practice. Having good vets down in GR the last several years has been a good organizational move. They are having a rocky season, but those guys helped keep them within striking distance of perhaps giving guys like Hronek, Saarijarvi and maybe some of our college and junior guys more development time. They are important to have in the organization.

 

[Redder Winger]

The Grand Rapids Griffins are an organization in their own right and not just a Red Wings play toy. I am tired of looking at it like that. Guys like Tangradi helped give Bert two more months of development and practice. Having good vets down in GR the last several years has been a good organizational move. They are having a rocky season, but those guys helped keep them within striking distance of perhaps giving guys like Hronek, Saarijarvi and maybe some of our college and junior guys more development time. They are important to have in the organization.

I don't mind guys like that.
But it's out of balance this year.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't mind guys like that.
But it's out of balance this year.

Agree that the young guys are not helping them out enough.

I just get a little touchy having lived for a time in Milwaukee and understanding why AHL teams don't just operate with only the NHL parent team in mind. Our young guys are not really performing well enough to be getting bigger roles right now. I just hope they can find a way to make the playoffs as I would like to see more development time for the guys.

 

[GrGriffins]

Rockford IceHogs 3 at Grand Rapids Griffins 4 - Status: Final
Saturday, January 20, 2018 - Van Andel Arena

Rockford 1 0 2 - 3
Grand Rapids 1 1 2 - 4

1st Period-1, Rockford, Hayden 2 (Sikura, Martinsen), 1:22 (PP). 2, Grand Rapids, Tangradi 16 (Holmstrom), 1:36.

Penalties-Elson Gr (tripping), 0:52; Dahlstrom Rfd (hooking), 4:33.

2nd Period-3, Grand Rapids, Puempel 16 (Hronek, Lorito), 17:44 (PP).

Penalties-served by Hayden Rfd (bench minor - too many men), 6:08; Pokka Rfd (slashing), 17:07; Hicketts Gr (slashing), 19:59.

3rd Period-4, Rockford, Kero 5 (Clendening, Louis), 4:21. 5, Grand Rapids, Shine 4 (Holmstrom, Lashoff), 4:42. 6, Grand Rapids, Russo 4 (Saarijarvi, Puempel), 7:26. 7, Rockford, Sikura 12 (Clendening, Dahlstrom), 19:21.

Penalties-Pelletier Rfd (unsportsmanlike conduct - playing without helmet), 6:08; McIlrath Gr (cross-checking), 6:08; Johnson Rfd (tripping), 19:53.

Shots on Goal-Rockford 15-8-14-37. Grand Rapids 14-7-8-29.

Power Play Opportunities-Rockford 1 / 2; Grand Rapids 1 / 4.

Goalies-Rockford, Tomkins 1-2-2 (29 shots-25 saves). Grand Rapids, Coreau 15-10-2 (37 shots-34 saves).

A-10,259

Referees-Mitch Dunning (3), Andrew Thackaberry (4).
Linesmen-Jesse Pletsch (51), Jim Scarpace (75).

 

[ChadS]

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

100% agree with this. I do think Turgeon is making gains in his skating though.

If Turgeon skated as well as Sheahan he might have likewise been a first round pick.

Fairly similar players, hopefully Turgeon works out a little better for us.

You have missed the boat on both points. Turgeon was never considered anywhere near skilled enough to be a bona fide first-round pick. He was largely a third-line center in his draft year and never considered one of the better Americans his age going into his draft year. The skating didn't help but it had far more to do with overall skill and lack of offensive instincts. Sheahan was far more accomplished than Turgeon coming into the draft (and had the excuse of being a very young NCAA player on a team coached by Jeff Jackson).

If you think skating is what is keeping Riley in the NHL or that he is even an average skater for his size by NHL standards you need to pay closer attention to how players skate and what impact it has on how they play the game. His skating is what is pushing him towards the league's exit door. It is the sole reason he was moved to the wing and 99% of the reason he plays center as nothing more than a third defensemen (which is why he does not produce much offensively and does not naturally create many scoring opportunities for himself). I can tell you in no uncertain terms that his college coaches thought his skating was a huge issue and something that held him back offensively at that level. I can't think of a single thing I like about his skating. He is the poster child for nonathletic, inefficient, upright skaters.

Please don't interpret this to mean that Turgeon will be a materially better NHL player than Riley or that he is a well above average NHL skater for his size.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You have missed the boat on both points. Turgeon was never considered anywhere near skilled enough to be a bona fide first-round pick. He was largely a third-line center in his draft year and never considered one of the better Americans his age going into his draft year. The skating didn't help but it had far more to do with overall skill and lack of offensive instincts. Sheahan was far more accomplished than Turgeon coming into the draft (and had the excuse of being a very young NCAA player on a team coached by Jeff Jackson).

If you think skating is what is keeping Riley in the NHL or that he is even an average skater for his size by NHL standards you need to pay closer attention to how players skate and what impact it has on how they play the game. His skating is what is pushing him towards the league's exit door. It is the sole reason he was moved to the wing and 99% of the reason he plays center as nothing more than a third defensemen (which is why he does not produce much offensively and does not naturally create many scoring opportunities for himself). I can tell you in no uncertain terms that his college coaches thought his skating was a huge issue and something that held him back offensively at that level. I can't think of a single thing I like about his skating. He is the poster child for nonathletic, inefficient, upright skaters.

Please don't interpret this to mean that Turgeon will be a materially better NHL player than Riley or that he is a well above average NHL skater for his size.

Our scouts had Turgeon rated with a first round grade. Respectfully we know a group of professionals that shared where he stood on skill in their eyes. They thought he was buried on the depth chart, a lot of us disagreed but there is an example of a team liking his package and thinking if he made skating gains it would be a big deal.

Sheahan is a better skater than most around here give him credit for. I am not sure Riley is crashing out of the league at all. I know you might think that but 11 teams called on him last year and one traded for him this year, he is a little more in demand than what you just shared. He is playing 15 minutes a night for the Penguins so his icetime is up considerably over there. One of the reasons is he skates well for a man his size and can play special teams.

Best of the West #5: Riley Sheahan, Notre Dame

NHL 2010 Top Draft Prospects: Riley Sheahan

Good thing you can guarantee what his college coach could say or the third person information you had on it, unfortunately this thing called the internet has his college coaches comments in his draft year and other places. Sheahan was absolutely up the board entering the draft. I get that, my point was Turgeon was a project because of skating primarily, if he skated well I don't know where he falls on the board, the Wings liked him enough without great acceleration in his first few steps to have him ranked highly on their board.

They are both heavy two way forwards with rounded games even as youngsters. Sheahan was more talented and a better skater at a younger age. That is why he went in the 1st round. The Wings liked Turgeon's skill and moved up to get him stunned he wasn't gone earlier because they had a high grade on him. They could be dead wrong, time will tell.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Our scouts had Turgeon rated with a first round grade. Respectfully we know a group of professionals that shared where he stood on skill in their eyes. They thought he was buried on the depth chart, a lot of us disagreed but there is an example of a team liking his package and thinking if he made skating gains it would be a big deal.

Sheahan is a better skater than most around here give him credit for. I am not sure Riley is crashing out of the league at all. I know you might think that but 11 teams called on him last year and one traded for him this year, he is a little more in demand than what you just shared. He is playing 15 minutes a night for the Penguins so his icetime is up considerably over there. One of the reasons is he skates well for a man his size and can play special teams.

Best of the West #5: Riley Sheahan, Notre Dame

NHL 2010 Top Draft Prospects: Riley Sheahan

Good thing you can guarantee what his college coach could say or the third person information you had on it, unfortunately this thing called the internet has his college coaches comments in his draft year and other places. Sheahan was absolutely up the board entering the draft. I get that, my point was Turgeon was a project because of skating primarily, if he skated well I don't know where he falls on the board, the Wings liked him enough without great acceleration in his first few steps to have him ranked highly on their board.

They are both heavy two way forwards with rounded games even as youngsters. Sheahan was more talented and a better skater at a younger age. That is why he went in the 1st round. The Wings liked Turgeon's skill and moved up to get him stunned he wasn't gone earlier because they had a high grade on him. They could be dead wrong, time will tell.

That is a very long response with very little actual discussion of Riley's skating. If you are going to take issue with my assessment of his skating, you need to tell me why specifically he is a good skater and holster the conclusory statements about his skating. "He is a good skater" does not tell me much about your thought process on the issue and what you are seeing. No half-competent skating coach would endorse his mechanics in this day and age and you don't need to see him next to Paul Coffey to know that he has heavy feet. For Riley it is an unfortunate toxic cocktail of athletic limitations and technical inefficiencies.

I am more than aware that the Wings thought highly of Turgeon and graded him as a potential first rounder. I also agree that if he skated better he would have graded much better in his draft year. That is a very fair assumption. I am not sure, however, whether it would have materially changed his long-term projection as a player or how he plays the game. It probably would have made him more effective in how he plays the game and more likely that his game would translate to the professional ranks. Skill is still, however, a very real, limiting factor on a player's ceiling.

Anyways, I see the complete opposite in Sheahan from what you and Redder do. While not elite, I do think he has above-average skill and a very underrated shot. His feet, however, do not allow him to find/create the separation, time and space necessary to effectively use that skill. If he skated better I would argue that he could generate more without being a defensive liability (which I think is probably his primary concern). In my eyes he just doesn't seem to get everything out his abilities in that regard.

 

[Redder Winger]

Turgeon has heavy feet. His first few strides are laborious.
Sheahan isn't the kind of skater who gets separation. But for a bigger guy (215 pounds), he's a good skater.
His combination of size, skating and defensive acumen will ensure he'll be in the NHL for a long time.

It's what makes Sheahan an NHLer and will make guys like Nosek and Turgeon AHLers.

 

[Henkka]

Anyways, I see the complete opposite in Sheahan from what you and Redder do. While not elite, I do think he has above-average skill and a very underrated shot. His feet, however, do not allow him to find/create the separation, time and space necessary to effectively use that skill. If he skated better I would argue that he could generate more without being a defensive liability (which I think is probably his primary concern). In my eyes he just doesn't seem to get everything out his abilities in that regard.

This is 100% a character problem. Guy has a good shot and this and that. But he has no willingness to use those tools. We waited for years for him to start shooting more and use that skill. But he didn't.

It was time to move on.

 

[Winger98]

This is 100% a character problem. Guy has a good shot and this and that. But he has no willingness to use those tools. We waited for years for him to start shooting more and use that skill. But he didn't.

It was time to move on.

He so needed to use his body. He's a big guy, but he refused to use it consistently. He didn't have to run people over like Drake did, but he needed to take the body more often, he needed to bull to the net with it, he needed to use it. Same with Jurco, though back injuries may have been a big factor with him.