Goaltender Game-by-Game Logs (1965-66 to present) and research questions

[Doctor No]

Here are my conclusions on Terry Sawchuk (and Roger Crozier and Roy Edwards) for 1968-69:

http://hockeygoalies.org/research/196869.html#detroit

Pretty solid evidence for each of Sawchuk's wins (four) and losses (five). I'd love more on the March 30 game (that affects Crozier and Edwards).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Here You Go

Here are my conclusions on Terry Sawchuk (and Roger Crozier and Roy Edwards) for 1968-69:

http://hockeygoalies.org/research/196869.html#detroit

Pretty solid evidence for each of Sawchuk's wins (four) and losses (five). I'd love more on the March 30 game (that affects Crozier and Edwards).

March 31, 1969 Windsor Star game story:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JDQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=bVEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6347,3634102

Looks like Crozier was pulled after the 4th Chicago goal - 10:11 of the 2nd period.

The scoring summary is here:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JDQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=bVEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3584,3642700

 

[Doctor No]

March 31, 1969 Windsor Star game story:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JDQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=bVEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6347,3634102

Looks like Crozier was pulled after the 4th Chicago goal - 10:11 of the 2nd period.

The scoring summary is here:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JDQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=bVEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3584,3642700

Thanks, C1958!

Reading it at face value is troubling, since that would contradict every other source I've seen (most sources have the switch at 33:23, except for the Tribune that has the switch at 36:15).

My best guess is that it needs to be read this way (brackets added by me): "The two teams poured nine goals into the nets in the second period, six of them by Chicago, knocking Red Wing goalie Roger Crozier out of the cage after four goals [by Chicago in the period]." That would put the switch at 33:23. Since the paragraph emphasizes the scoring in the period, that's at least plausible.

Either way, it additionally disproves the Tribune's 36:15 claim.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wire Reports

Thanks, C1958!

Reading it at face value is troubling, since that would contradict every other source I've seen (most sources have the switch at 33:23, except for the Tribune that has the switch at 36:15).

My best guess is that it needs to be read this way (brackets added by me): "The two teams poured nine goals into the nets in the second period, six of them by Chicago, knocking Red Wing goalie Roger Crozier out of the cage after four goals [by Chicago in the period]." That would put the switch at 33:23. Since the paragraph emphasizes the scoring in the period, that's at least plausible.

Either way, it additionally disproves the Tribune's 36:15 claim.

Wire reports - AP, UPI, CP etc are tricky since local papers tended to abridge/adapt them to local available space. My own inclination would be to go with a beat reporter's account whenever possible.

 

[Doctor No]

Agreed 100% - fortunately, that's becoming easier to do these days (certainly easier now than when Tremblay was compiling similar information).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Core Newspapers

Agreed 100% - fortunately, that's becoming easier to do these days (certainly easier now than when Tremblay was compiling similar information).

Tremblay did his work when, using what core newspapers and which core libraries?

Knowing would help avoid repeating paths already covered.

 

[Doctor No]

Adding a bit, related to the specifics of local reporters (which I prefer) to wire service reports:

In this case, the March 30, 1969 game is interesting, since the Detroit Free Press summary (marked as "Special to the Free Press, although no named byline") says: "Roy Edwards was rushed into the breech and greeted warmly by Wharram's second goal and Hull's 58th" (suggesting a 33:23 switch).

And of course, the Chicago Tribune summary (Ted Damata byline) says: "Crozier gave way to Edwards late in the second period after the Hawks had made it 6 to 3 on Wharram's last goal." (suggests 36:15).

The Ludington (MI) Daily News report is a UPI wire report: "Detroit goalie Roger Crozier was blown out of the nets and replaced by Roy Edwards, who immediately got stuck for two more goals." (suggests 33:23).

And then we have the Windsor Star above (a different UPI wire report), suggesting 33:23 (if you read it in a particular way).

None of the AP reports that I've seen (such as the Benton Harbor (MI) Palladium or the Port Huron (MI) Times Herald) mention the goaltenders, and the CP report I've seen (Calgary Herald) doesn't mention it either.

 

[Doctor No]

Tremblay did his work when, using what core newspapers and which core libraries?

Knowing would help avoid repeating paths already covered.

It's hard to know for sure, because he didn't publish his sources. He had a lot of people (including me) checking their local papers within microfilm at libraries.

I don't have the e-mails any longer, but I want to say that it was done in the late 2000s (I'd guess 2008 or so).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Thank You

It's hard to know for sure, because he didn't publish his sources. He had a lot of people (including me) checking their local papers within microfilm at libraries.

I don't have the e-mails any longer, but I want to say that it was done in the late 2000s (I'd guess 2008 or so).

Good to know. Seems the problem was and still is the lack of a single and reliable source for each NHL team.

 

[Doctor No]

HALP!

I'm looking for someone with additional (better) accounts of the North Stars/Kings game on February 19, 1969.

Final score was 7-4, Minnesota, and the box score is here:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680349

What I can't definitively determine is who allowed the fifth North Stars goal (and of course, this is the game-winning goal, so that goaltender would earn the loss.

St. Cloud Times (Robert Penick) states that "Bill Goldsworthy made it 5-1 at 13 seconds into the second period, swooping in unmolested on Jacques Caron who replaced Gerry Desjardins in the King net." (Fifth goal is GWG) Long Beach Independent article uses same text.

Los Angeles Times (AP) article shows Desjardins facing one shot in second period (does not mention either goalie in article).

Tremblay's research concluded that Desjardins allowed the fifth goal, although I don't know how he got there.

Ordinarily, this would be easy, since Caron only had one official loss in the 1968-69 (and he played a complete game loss elsewhere for the Kings that year), but the NHL win-loss-tie totals appear to be really nuts this year (as I've shown evidence of thus far).

Additional things I find:
Long Beach Independent (February 22) says: "when Desjardins let in three goals in the first period of last week's game at St. Louis and four in the first 20 minutes at Minnesota Wednesday, Kelly brought in Jacques Caron, who he never planned to use unless Desjardins was injured." (Suggests that the switch occurred at the period break).

 

[Doctor No]

Okay, I am back! (And you'll see what took me so long when you click on the link below).

I would still love help (particularly Minneapolis accounts) of the February 19, 1969 Kings/North Stars game, since that's the one place in the below link where I have reasonable doubt.

With that said, here's my complete set of findings on the Los Angeles Kings' 1968-69 season:

http://hockeygoalies.org/research/196869.html#losangeles

To summarize, I believe that:

• Gerry Desjardins' record should be 19-29-9 (not 18-34-6)
• Wayne Rutledge's record should be 5-11-0 (not 6-7-4), and
• Jacques Caron's record should be 0-2-0 (not 0-1-0).

I've listed all games in the link above, including the evidence that I have for them to have appeared in the game (and earned their decision).

Thank you for any help!!!

 

[Doctor No]

Found something! Newspapers.com just added Minneapolis newspapers to their premium service, and I found this in the Minneapolis Tribune:

"The victim of four Minnesota goals in the opening period was Gerry DesJardins, whom the Los Angeles front office is pushing for Rookie of the year. Kelly removed DesJardins and supplanted him with Caron, who played considerably better. The North Stars pelted Caron with a goal on their first shot of the second period. Goldsworthy raced around defenseman Brent Hughes and scored at 13 seconds."

I think I've got enough evidence now that Caron allowed the fifth goal (meaning that he earned the loss, and should have two losses instead of one).

 

[Doctor No]

More from the 1968-69 NHL season - I believe that the NHL missed a loss to Maniago (who should have 34) and gave it to Garry Bauman.

Here's my evidence for each of Maniago's 34 losses:

http://hockeygoalies.org/research/196869.html#minnesota

I also detail a game where I differ from Sebastien Tremblay's work - he gave the March 29th loss to Rivard, where I gave it to Bauman.

 

[Doctor No]

Does anyone have access to a newspaper account of the Bruins/Canadiens game of March 30, 1969 which mentions the time of switch between Rogie Vachon (starter) and Gump Worsley?

HSP has 30:00 (presumably 30:06), which would give Worsley the loss, since the GWG was scored at 31:38:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680452

Sebastien Tremblay has 31:38, which would give Vachon the loss.

My best evidence supports 31:38, coming from the Boston Globe, which mentions that "McKenzie...beat Rogatien Vachon, who replaced Worsley in the Montreal net halfway through the period", but didn't mention Vachon switch on an earlier goal (McKenzie's goal was scored at 32:33).

Anyone have anything that might help?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Few Minutes

Does anyone have access to a newspaper account of the Bruins/Canadiens game of March 30, 1969 which mentions the time of switch between Rogie Vachon (starter) and Gump Worsley?

HSP has 30:00 (presumably 30:06), which would give Worsley the loss, since the GWG was scored at 31:38:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680452

Sebastien Tremblay has 31:38, which would give Vachon the loss.

My best evidence supports 31:38, coming from the Boston Globe, which mentions that "McKenzie...beat Rogatien Vachon, who replaced Worsley in the Montreal net halfway through the period", but didn't mention Vachon switch on an earlier goal (McKenzie's goal was scored at 32:33).

Anyone have anything that might help?

At the BanQ looking at microfilm, section closed at 8:00 minutes ago. Next time will try the non-Gazette papers:

Gazette paper linked to the weekend set of games:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=oa8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jqAFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=4629,7180835

Usually the Canadiens when splitting a game would go with the closest to the 10:00 mark, so an intuitive gues would be 10:06. Will try to nail it down in a couple of weeks.

BTW - non-goaltending but the March 29, 1969 game gives détails about how the Canadiens match lines against Phil Esposito.

 

[Doctor No]

Thanks, C1958! I think J-P Martel on the SIHR list found a definitive source - La Presse (quoting J-P below):

It says that Vachon was sent to replace Worsley and finish the game, halfway through the second period. Vachon experimented with wearing a mask, since the game didn't mean anything in the standings.

After the game, Vachon said: "It wasn't very encouraging [wearing a mask] seeing that there were two goals on the first two shots by the Bruins."

So Esposito's winning goal was scored against Vachon.

If there were two goals on the first two Boston shots against Vachon, that pretty clearly lines up with 31:38 (the GWG) and 32:33.

 

[Doctor No]

Here's my case for giving Ed Giacomin an additional win and loss in 1968-69, at the expense of Don Simmons:

http://hockeygoalies.org/research/196869.html#nyrangers

 

[Doctor No]

In-laws are almost here, so I won't write it up yet, but I've confirmed that Sawchuk in 1968-69 should be 4-5-3 instead of 3-4-3.

Unless this is offset by another season's error, that will give Terry 448 career NHL regular season wins (instead of 447).

The NHL apparently agrees with me on 4-5-3 for 1968-69.

More interesting, they have Sawchuk at 445 RS wins total (not 447).

https://www.nhl.com/player/terry-sawchuk-8450111?stats=career-r-nhl&season=19691970

Bombshell!

 

[Doctor No]

Now wondering if my ticket stub from Roy's 448th win is worth less.

 

[Doctor No]

Well, I thought it was interesting.



Anyhow, I'm looking forward to squeezing at this a bit more and seeing what else pops.

 

[Sanf]

The NHL apparently agrees with me on 4-5-3 for 1968-69.

More interesting, they have Sawchuk at 445 RS wins total (not 447).

https://www.nhl.com/player/terry-sawchuk-8450111?stats=career-r-nhl&season=19691970

Bombshell!

Well that is something.

Took a quick look and Lorne Chabot and Alec Connell got the +1 games that belonged to them. Connell´s GAA got weakened from 1.91 to 1.92. Still enough gap to keep him at number one position.

 

[Doctor No]

Thanks, Sanf - good finds!

I'm very impressed that the league is willing to rewrite "sacred" records for the sake of accuracy. I know that other leagues (major league baseball) have not done so.

 

[Hammer Time]

Breaking News: NHL.com now has complete save percentage information and game logs going back to 1955-56. So far, I've checked a few of the corrections discovered in this thread and they seem to be corrected in the official data.

If this is true, then Doctor No should be able to add accurate game logs from 1955 to 1970 simply by scraping data from the NHL website.

This is a game changer.

 

[Doctor No]

Indeed! Although I'll start by cross-checking my 14 pages of questions/errors for 1970 through now. Then I can finalize 1967-68 through 1969-70 (I found significant errors, many of which look to have been corrected by the league).

I'll likely continue to do the research manually (with the NHL data as one source but not the only source) since (1) I'm sure that there are errors in what was just released - you can't transcribe that much data without introducing errors, and (2) I'm also - perhaps primarily - interested in anecdotes, injuries, and other stuff that only really appears in newspaper summaries.

 

[Doctor No]

I've added game-by-game logs for the NHL's 1969-70 season here:
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/logs/NHL1969.html

Chicago (Tony Esposito's rookie season) is particularly interesting.