Goaltender Game-by-Game Logs (1965-66 to present) and research questions

[Canadiens1958]

Bench Penalty

Okay, here's an odd request (and one that should be easier to resolve than I'm making it out to be).

Who was the Boston Bruins' goaltender on October 16, 1968, in the club's 2-1 win in Oakland?

HSP has Cheevers playing, while Sebastien Tremblay has Johnston playing (in fact, Tremblay doesn't have Cheevers playing at all until October 19, suggesting a malady of some sort).

I can't find a publicly available box source for the game to confirm one side or the other. There's a good Oakland source on newspapers.com, but I'd prefer to pay for the service all at once (since you pay per time, not per page accessed). And I've never found a good Boston source online (at a reasonable price).

And of course, it's a lousy west coast game.

Anyone have anything good?

EDIT: Similar question for the November 6, 1968 game:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680061

HSP has Johnston playing, Tremblay has Cheevers playing. HSP boxscore has a minor penalty for Cheevers (even with them having Johnston playing).

If Tremblay is correct in both cases, then my W/L/T totals will match the official NHL record for both goaltenders.

At times HSP does not distinguish between bench penalties and on ice penalties. Possible for a back-up goalie to get a two minute penalty while on the bench, never being in play.

W/L/T matching means the SOG and S% may be used to cross check.

 

[Doctor No]

Yes, goaltenders can receive bench penalties (see post #198 in this thread, for instance).

With that said, given the evidence that I've presented this far, wouldn't you say that that there's a pretty good chance that HSP has the wrong goaltender listed as playing in the game?

(And remember that SOG and SV% are generated from these exercises - they weren't published by the NHL. So they can't be used to cross-check anything).

 

[Samhain]

I'll put more of this in the Numbers forum, but something I noticed about Pete Peeters' amazing season in 1982-83. Of course, Peeters is the only goaltender to win the Vezina unanimously (since it went to a voting-based criterion).

Well, I ran my strength of schedule metrics on 1982-83 and 1983-84 tonight. Not only was Peeters not sheltered, but...

Peeters' typical opponent during the 1982-83 season was 0.02 goals below average (that is, they would be expected to lose to an average opponent, on neutral ice, by about 0.02 goals).

This isn't particularly unusual - Boston was an above average team, so one would expect their typical opponent to be below average (since they don't have to play themselves). However...

Boston's other goaltenders in 1982-83 were Mike Moffat and Marco Baron. Moffat's typical opponent was 0.45 goals worse than average, while Baron's typical opponent was 0.30 goals worse than average.

Despite this, Peeters' save percentage was 3.4 standard deviations above average (with what looks to be a rather pedestrian 90.4% save percentage. One of the reasons why we must normalize these things for era). Moffat? 2.8 SD *below* average, with Baron 0.8 SD below average.

All hail Pete Peeters.

Is PETE PETTERS the only Goalie to Win the Vezina Trophy with a Unanimous Vote?? wow... and YES All HAIL Pete Peeters, He was the "Gold" Medal Championship Winning Goalie in 1984 World/Canada Cup and if it wasn't for Injuries and some "Personal" issues he could have had an even better all star career.

I love what you have done with the Goalie Stats as the Goaltender is truly the most underrated position in hockey.

The HOF in the past 25 years barely put's enough Goalies in the HOF and although we might disagree on who should be in I still think these Goalies are HOF caliber.
-Tom Barrasso
-Andy Moog
-Mike Vernon
-Curtis Joseph

 

[Doctor No]

Thanks! I'm a huge Peeters fan as well - I wish he'd had a longer career of note; he ended up in that platoon role in Washington, but if he could have stayed a star in Boston he would have a had a great shot. Yes, the only unanimous Vezina winner in the voting era.

I'd put all four goaltenders in the HHOF that you mention (although I think the position is underrepresented, and consequently I'd have lower standards than the voters appear to have). I think Barrasso would already be in if it were solely based on on-ice concerns.

 

[Doctor No]

Okay, here's a conundrum that may lead to something interesting (I've long accepted that I have different opinions of "interesting" than the masses).

We know that Terry Sawchuk held the National Hockey League regular season record for victories, with 447, until Patrick Roy passed him on October 17, 2000.

Sawchuk earned three of his victories in 1968-69. Or did he?

Both HSP and Tremblay's book have Detroit winning *four* games in which Sawchuk was the only Red Wings goaltender to appear on the ice.

November 6, 1968 - 6-5 win at Chicago:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680062

November 14, 1968 - 5-2 win at Los Angeles:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680084

January 25, 1969 - 5-3 win vs. Oakland:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680275

January 26, 1969 - 3-2 win vs. Toronto:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680278

Given what else I've seen so far, it's *possible* that Sawchuk was misattributed to one of these games (Sebastien was one of the group of us who worked on HSP back in the day, so the fact that his book matches these results is not unusual).

What I'm looking for is confirmation that Sawchuk was the goaltender for the Red Wings in each of these contests (I'll get Free Press access down the road, but wanted to throw it out there).

Does Sawchuk have four wins in 1968-69 (and therefore, 448 regular season career wins)? And did Patrick Roy break the record on October 17 or October 20 (at home against Florida)?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Game Reports

Okay, here's a conundrum that may lead to something interesting (I've long accepted that I have different opinions of "interesting" than the masses).

We know that Terry Sawchuk held the National Hockey League regular season record for victories, with 447, until Patrick Roy passed him on October 17, 2000.

Sawchuk earned three of his victories in 1968-69. Or did he?

Both HSP and Tremblay's book have Detroit winning *four* games in which Sawchuk was the only Red Wings goaltender to appear on the ice.

November 6, 1968 - 6-5 win at Chicago:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680062

November 14, 1968 - 5-2 win at Los Angeles:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680084

January 25, 1969 - 5-3 win vs. Oakland:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680275

January 26, 1969 - 3-2 win vs. Toronto:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680278

Given what else I've seen so far, it's *possible* that Sawchuk was misattributed to one of these games (Sebastien was one of the group of us who worked on HSP back in the day, so the fact that his book matches these results is not unusual).

What I'm looking for is confirmation that Sawchuk was the goaltender for the Red Wings in each of these contests (I'll get Free Press access down the road, but wanted to throw it out there).

Does Sawchuk have four wins in 1968-69 (and therefore, 448 regular season career wins)? And did Patrick Roy break the record on October 17 or October 20 (at home against Florida)?

From The Gazette.
November 6, 1968 games. You get a 2 for 1 here as the Flyers vs Bruins game requested earlier is also listed. Sawchuk was the winning goalie. However the goalies and shots for the Flyers vs Bruins game are not listed.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5HkyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GrkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=976,1611788

November 14, 1968 game, goalies and shots not listed.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=63kyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GrkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=4657,3696800

January 25 & 26 games from January 27,1969 edition. Sawchuk played both:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JHoyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=F7kFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3467,5233120

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JHoyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=F7kFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3194,5221892

 

[Doctor No]

This is perfect - thank you!

So we know that Sawchuk played November 6, January 25 and January 26 (and would have earned wins in all three). I bet the November 14 game will come up in the Long Beach Independent when I pay for Newspapers.com access.

(Related but as an aside, this appears to be the tipping point year where newspapers stopped listing goaltenders in just about every box score - for years after this, it was almost exceptional that goalies weren't listed. For this year, from my quest so far it almost seems odd when they *are* listed).

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Windsor Star

This is perfect - thank you!

So we know that Sawchuk played November 6, January 25 and January 26 (and would have earned wins in all three). I bet the November 14 game will come up in the Long Beach Independent when I pay for Newspapers.com access.

(Related but as an aside, this appears to be the tipping point year where newspapers stopped listing goaltenders in just about every box score - for years after this, it was almost exceptional that goalies weren't listed. For this year, from my quest so far it almost seems odd when they *are* listed).

The November 15, 1968 edition of the Windsor Star , game story and summary confirms that Sawchuk was the goalie.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sDQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=dFEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3066,5608195

 

[Canadiens1958]

Cheevers

Okay, here's an odd request (and one that should be easier to resolve than I'm making it out to be).

Who was the Boston Bruins' goaltender on October 16, 1968, in the club's 2-1 win in Oakland?

HSP has Cheevers playing, while Sebastien Tremblay has Johnston playing (in fact, Tremblay doesn't have Cheevers playing at all until October 19, suggesting a malady of some sort).

I can't find a publicly available box source for the game to confirm one side or the other. There's a good Oakland source on newspapers.com, but I'd prefer to pay for the service all at once (since you pay per time, not per page accessed). And I've never found a good Boston source online (at a reasonable price).

And of course, it's a lousy west coast game.

Anyone have anything good?

EDIT: Similar question for the November 6, 1968 game:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680061

HSP has Johnston playing, Tremblay has Cheevers playing. HSP boxscore has a minor penalty for Cheevers (even with them having Johnston playing).

If Tremblay is correct in both cases, then my W/L/T totals will match the official NHL record for both goaltenders.

Per the Windsor Star, Cheevers played the November 6, 1968 game:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qTQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=dFEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3714,1694590

 

[Doctor No]

These are great - thank you, C1958!

Specifically on Sawchuk, it would appear that we have a conundrum. Four clear victories in a season where the league only awarded him three. The Sporting News guides don't list goaltender victories (boo) so I can't tell if this has existed since the 1969 offseason, but you would assume that it was a reasonably big deal since Sawchuk was the NHL record holder since 1961-62:

http://hockeygoalies.org/stats/nhl-wins-rs.html

I'll still be looking for the Free Press summaries of these games, since they'll presumably have the "home team" perspective on Sawchuk. Another possibility, of course, is that this is an error that will be canceled out by another error earlier in Sawchuk's career. I'm always extra cautious about correcting the official NHL records; I consider that a high bar.

For Cheevers and Johnston, I'd bet my own money that the other game was flipped (with Johnston in net instead of Sawchuk) - that would balance the WLT totals and games played.

Last but certainly not least, is it wrong that I'm irrationally excited about the Windsor Star? Somehow I've missed this gem in my work - at one point way back, I went through every paper on Google archives to see which ones had decent hockey coverage. I wonder if this one wasn't represented at the time, because it certainly looks good now (and at the time, I was focused around 1978 to 1980, where this paper looks good). Great find!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Explanations

These are great - thank you, C1958!

Specifically on Sawchuk, it would appear that we have a conundrum. Four clear victories in a season where the league only awarded him three. The Sporting News guides don't list goaltender victories (boo) so I can't tell if this has existed since the 1969 offseason, but you would assume that it was a reasonably big deal since Sawchuk was the NHL record holder since 1961-62:

http://hockeygoalies.org/stats/nhl-wins-rs.html

I'll still be looking for the Free Press summaries of these games, since they'll presumably have the "home team" perspective on Sawchuk. Another possibility, of course, is that this is an error that will be canceled out by another error earlier in Sawchuk's career. I'm always extra cautious about correcting the official NHL records; I consider that a high bar.

For Cheevers and Johnston, I'd bet my own money that the other game was flipped (with Johnston in net instead of Sawchuk) - that would balance the WLT totals and games played.

Last but certainly not least, is it wrong that I'm irrationally excited about the Windsor Star? Somehow I've missed this gem in my work - at one point way back, I went through every paper on Google archives to see which ones had decent hockey coverage. I wonder if this one wasn't represented at the time, because it certainly looks good now (and at the time, I was focused around 1978 to 1980, where this paper looks good). Great find!

Perhaps some of the split games during Sawchuk's time in the NHL during the two-goalie system might provide the explanation.

The Johnston / Cheevers situation. There is a crosscheck available but not early in the season - first week. Usually a few weeks into the season the NHL stats would start appearing every Tuesday, sometimes Wednesday in most Canadian daily newspapers. Balance HSP data for the two goalies against the first appearance of the NHL stats.

Windsor Star, at times had a Detroit Red Wings beat writer - at least at their home games.Windsor being on the Canadian side of the river across from Detroit. Most of the Canadian daily newspaper had solid NHL coverage. Halifax, Moncton,Ottawa, Kingston, Québec City, London, Kitchener, etc working west.

Game boxscores, provided by CP usually, are iffy at times. Each paper did their own typesetting so you will find errors for the same game in different papers. Mainly a missing penalty time giving the impression of coincidental minors,etc.

 

[Doctor No]

This reminds me of a side project that I think would be useful for the group in general - publicly available newspapers with good hockey coverages.

I'll put together a shell next.

 

[Doctor No]

Weird things I notice while doing the data work involved here...

Gerry Desjardins notched a shutout streak of 142 minutes, 2 seconds with the Los Angeles Kings, but didn't even get one victory for his troubles. First, he battled Jacques Plante and the Blues to a 0-0 draw, then he and Gary Smith (Oakland) left one another scoreless.

I'm sure that this probably happened a few times during 1928-29, but I was impressed to see it so recently.

 

[Doctor No]

Per the Windsor Star, Cheevers played the November 6, 1968 game:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qTQ_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=dFEMAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3714,1694590

Chicago Tribune agrees that Cheevers (not Johnston) played for the Bruins in the 11/6 game:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1968/11/07/page/77

 

[Doctor No]

Random research question - can anyone find a specific time that Cesare Maniago left the North Stars - Black Hawks game on October 28, 1967?

Best I've seen is in the St. Cloud Times summary, which says "midway in the second period". Chicago Tribune says "second period", and the Los Angeles Times shots summary suggest second period as well.

However, HSP (on advice from Tremblay, most likely) has Maniago playing 43 minutes:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19670044

Although even there, the shots suggest that Maniago didn't play two-plus periods.

 

[Doctor No]

Okay, here's an odd request (and one that should be easier to resolve than I'm making it out to be).

Who was the Boston Bruins' goaltender on October 16, 1968, in the club's 2-1 win in Oakland?

HSP has Cheevers playing, while Sebastien Tremblay has Johnston playing (in fact, Tremblay doesn't have Cheevers playing at all until October 19, suggesting a malady of some sort).

I can't find a publicly available box source for the game to confirm one side or the other. There's a good Oakland source on newspapers.com, but I'd prefer to pay for the service all at once (since you pay per time, not per page accessed). And I've never found a good Boston source online (at a reasonable price).

And of course, it's a lousy west coast game.

Anyone have anything good?

EDIT: Similar question for the November 6, 1968 game:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19680061

HSP has Johnston playing, Tremblay has Cheevers playing. HSP boxscore has a minor penalty for Cheevers (even with them having Johnston playing).

If Tremblay is correct in both cases, then my W/L/T totals will match the official NHL record for both goaltenders.

Chicago Tribune and Camden Courier-Post both specifically mention Cheevers playing on November 6.

And in the October 16 San Mateo Times text summary (and the Los Angeles Times box score), Johnston is said to have played.

Seems like HSP has the two flipped.

 

[Doctor No]

Okay, here's a puzzler. Image from the St. Cloud (MN) Times, February 20, 1969:

This is from the North Stars win over Los Angeles on February 19, 1969. Every report I've seen says that Maniago played the entire 7-4 win.

However...the goaltender in the picture (who bears a resemblance to Maniago) is *clearly* wearing a number starting with a "2" (my guess is "29"). Maniago only wore #30 with the North Stars to my knowledge.

Does anyone have evidence of other numbers that Maniago wore? And why?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

What I can tell you, is that a few days before that, the guy who wore #29 (Brian Smith, AHL/NHL 'tweener) was traded, so the number was vacant. Why Maniago had to resort to using the vacated number/jersey is anyone's guess at this point. Ripped, bloodied, forgotten somewhere, no time to replace...? It was the '60s, so...

 

[Doctor No]

OJ, I think you're right - thanks! Brian Smith was traded to Phoenix on February 11th, and he did wear #29 (Hockey Reference and the Stars' media guide agree on this).

That explains why the number existed - I wonder what happened that necessitated Maniago wearing it.

I'm finding some weird things in the newspapers - which is why I do this - like when Joe Daley's new goalie gloves were stolen from the Pittsburgh dressing room just prior to a game against the North Stars (he had to wear Garry Bauman's gloves).

I wonder if that's why he started a sporting good store?

 

[Doctor No]

Alright, here's a minor correction to the official NHL statistics.

Denis DeJordy is listed as having played ten games for the Chicago Black Hawks in 1969-70 (prior to his trade to Los Angeles mid-season).

I believe that he played eleven games.

The following games, DeJordy is specifically mentioned in the Chicago Tribune write up of the Black Hawks' game:

• October 12 (Loss)
• October 18 (Loss)
• October 19 (Loss)
• October 22 (Tie)
• December 14 (Win)
• December 17 (Loss)
• January 4 (Loss)
• February 14 (Win)
• February 19 (Win)

Tallying those nine games' decisions, that puts DeJordy at 3-5-1 (which matches his official totals).

In addition, DeJordy replaced Tony Esposito on two occasions - December 6 and December 13. On December 6, the Chicago Tribune specifically mentions the time of the switch. On December 13, the Chicago Tribune mentions that DeJordy played the final three minutes of action. In both cases, the switch was at a time where the decisions were obviously Esposito's.

And that's eleven games, all mentioned specifically in the Chicago Tribune write ups. One interesting thing - in the write up of the January 4 game, the Tribune mentions that it was DeJordy's sixth start of the year (it was his seventh per my count).

I'd love to know more about the switch on December 13th, since I can't tell if it happened at the time of the goal or afterwards (and if that's the case, was Esposito injured).

Anyhow, eleven games for DeJordy with Chicago in 1969-70. Bigger things to come.

 

[Doctor No]

Here's another one - more interesting (and I'm going to have even more).

The official NHL statistics for 1968-69 have Gerry Cheevers with 28-12-12 (W-L-T), and Eddie Johnston with 14-6-4.

By my count, Cheevers is 27-12-13 (extra tie, missing win) and Johnston is 15-6-3 (extra win, missing tie).

I'm going to start with Cheevers' 13 ties. Sebastian Tremblay's book also has Cheevers with 13 ties, although that just proves that he came to the same conclusion as I did. So I went looking for places where he is specifically mentioned in the game accounts in various newspapers:

• November 10: Many specific mentions of Cheevers in St. Louis Post-Dispatch account.
• November 13: Picture of Cheevers in Ottawa Journal.
• November 27: Cheevers mentioned in Biddeford-Saco Journal. Also in box scores from Chicago Tribune and St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
• December 5: Cheevers mentioned in Burlington Free Press account.
• December 11: Cheevers mentioned in Asbury Park Press account (including picture).
• December 21: Cheevers mentioned in Rochester Democrat and Chronicle account.
• December 29: Cheevers mentioned in Port Huron Times Herald account.
• January 15: Cheevers mentioned in Philadelphia Inquirer account (specifically on GTG).
• January 29: Cheevers mentioned in San Mateo Times account (including picture).
• February 9: Cheevers mentioned in Los Angeles Times account.
• March 5: Cheevers mentioned in Philadephia Inquirer account.
• March 20: Cheevers mentioned in Chicago Tribune account.
• March 27: Cheevers mentioned in Asbury Park Press, Bennington Banner, and North Adams Transcript accounts.

So that's all thirteen accounted for. Is it possible that Johnston snuck into a game, got one of the ties, and it wasn't mentioned? Potentially. However, my totals for games and minutes played line up pretty well with the official accounts.

My conclusion is that Cheevers deserves an extra tie in his official total.

I'll work on Johnston tomorrow.

 

[Doctor No]

Here's the legwork on Johnston's fifteen (by my count) wins in 1968-69. Again, Tremblay matches my totals (which doesn't prove anything other that we independently reached the same result).

With that said, here are mentions of Johnstonfor his fifteen wins:

• October 11: Port Huron Times Herald and Chicago Tribune
• October 13: Bennington Banner, Philadelphia Daily News, Philadelphia Inquirer
• October 16: This is one that I detailed above earlier - Los Angeles Times and San Mateo Times
• October 27: Portsmouth Herald called Johnston "spectacular"
• January 12: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette specifically mentions it was Johnston's second game post-injurey
• January 16: Newport Daily News details Johnston's shutout bid (that was spoiled)
• January 26: All box scores have Johnston's name in them. Would love a text account mentioning Johnston (I can't find one).
• January 30: Photo of Johnston in Los Angeles Times. Different photo of Johnston in Brownsville (TX) Herald
• February 5: Photo of Johnston in Alton (IL) Evening Telegraph
• February 8: Mentioned in Philadelphia Inquirer
• February 11: Chicago Tribune account
• February 27: San Rafael Daily Independent-Journal (Johnston had an assist)
• March 2: Pittsburgh Press (bonus - Cheevers mentioned as being on the bench)
• March 22: Chicago Tribune account and picture
• March 30: Not a lot of text accounts that are detailed (I'd love one that explains when Worsley was pulled), but Johnston mentioned in all box scores, and Cheevers played against Montreal the night earlier.

So that's where we are - pretty good evidence that Johnston played in all fifteen games.

I'd love additional (useful) text summary for March 30, 1969 (Bruins/Canadiens) and January 26, 1969 (Bruins/North Stars).

I'm going to run with this one, and update my records to show Cheevers at 27-12-13, and Johnston at 15-6-3.

More to come!

 

[Doctor No]

Okay, we've established that Cesare Maniago wore #29 (in addition to his #30) during the 1968-69 NHL season (see above).

In trying to reconcile the Black Hawks' win totals for 1968-69, I found the attached photo in the Chicago Tribune (December 29, 1968).

This appears to be Fern Rivard wearing #30 (Maniago's number) - Rivard *did* play in the game depicted. One possibility is that it's from a different game and it's actually Maniago, and the picture is grainy enough that it's hard to guarantee that it's Rivard.

 

[Doctor No]

I've finished my Chicago due diligence, and I'm giving Dave Dryden (12-11-2) an extra victory, taken from Denis DeJordy (21-22-7).

Citation and research notes here:

http://hockeygoalies.org/research/196869.html#chicago

I've also included the Boston research notes here - there are enough discrepancies in the 1968-69 win/loss/tie totals that I've decided that a full web account will be useful.

Again, any supporting (or detracting) evidence would be most welcome.

 

[Doctor No]

In-laws are almost here, so I won't write it up yet, but I've confirmed that Sawchuk in 1968-69 should be 4-5-3 instead of 3-4-3.

Unless this is offset by another season's error, that will give Terry 448 career NHL regular season wins (instead of 447).