Give it up Moore!!!!!

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Ensane

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Mar 2, 2002
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KrisKing said:
Yes, there's a difference between those two.

But there's little difference between bertuzzi waiting two weeks versus Domi saying in the media that he was going to get Niedermeyer, and then later in that series elbowing him in the face. And no, I don't proof that this happened so don't ask. But that is the point I was trying to make.
I'm pretty sure Domi never said anything in the media. You're either mistaken or making it up.

I did a quick search, and a few articles actually say that the hit was "surprising." If you can provide a source, then I'll retract this. If not, then your supporting example is void.
 

Ensane

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Mar 2, 2002
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Kickassguy said:
Fair enough. Two weeks is a lengthy amount of time (although I'm sure the Nucks didn't exactly plan on sending out their star winger to exact revenge on a grinder, given the scrutiny that would be sure to follow). That doesn't really change the intent of those who only wait a period, or two in example to follow through on their threats, though, I don't think. And the Brashear incident was the result of a hit that occurred in the Olympics, no? Brashear was chasing Kasparaitis around all game because of that.

Let me just say that of course I'm not supporting the notion of pre-meditation in hockey or any sport for that matter. I'm just trying to point out that it's there a lot more frequently than we think, whether word gets out in the media beforehand or not, and something being privately pre-meditated versus publically pre-meditated, well, both can have equally unfortunate results.
I see what you're trying to get at.

Now see what we're saying: The totality of circumstances in the Bertuzzi incident sets it apart from every other on ice offense. The history leading up to it. Bertuzzi and co. being foolish enough to make statements through the media. And most importantly, the end and possibly desired result.
 

Holly Golightly

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Aug 3, 2005
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And On Another Note.....

And on another note...... I was doing a 'Google' search for articles concerning 'retribution' and 'premediation' when I came upon a Canadian site called: The Law Connection. There was an article entitled Violence In Sports which talked about the Bertuzzi/Moore case. I found the following quote interesting in regards to the position that the defence may take in a Civil trial:
While there is no official defence position yet, the defendants may claim that, by participating in the game, Moore consented to being hit. Consent is an important issue in the civil arena, just as it is in the criminal law. Since Steve Moore is the plaintiff, the burden is on him to show that he did not consent to the hit that was leveled against him that day.
Any opinions on such a defence strategy?

;)
 

lemieux32*

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KrisKing said:
The things I said actually continued the conversation. You, on the other hand, are just attacking me for some reason.

I didn't realize that refusing to find proof to back your comments up, arguing everything that isn't your viewpoint and making asinine statements constitute "continuing the conversation." Please show me where you have posted anything of substance. Heck, I'm still waiting for you to tell me how Moore's hit was illegal.
 

lemieux32*

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Kickassguy said:
Realize that you need to shut the hell up. Don't ever put words into my mouth. I fully support Moore in his rehabilitation and lawsuits, Bertuzzi is dealing, deservedly so, with the consequences of an extremely stupid action. That doesn't mean that people aren't wrong when they say pre-meditation isn't part of the game. It doesn't matter if something is announced in the media, or just known between the players on the ice. The intent of the action is EXACTLY the same. To attempt to differentiate between premeditation between players and premeditation in the media is grasping at straws.

Wow, get some anger management therapy, you are acting like Bertuzzi. Where did I put any words in your mouth? I simply made a point about the Canuck fans rally. So I think it is you who should be quiet before you get into trouble with the mods for those anger issues.
 

Kickassguy

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Ensane said:
I see what you're trying to get at.

Now see what we're saying: The totality of circumstances in the Bertuzzi incident sets it apart from every other on ice offense. The history leading up to it. Bertuzzi and co. being foolish enough to make statements through the media. And most importantly, the end and possibly desired result.

I can see what you're getting at, as well. The Bertuzzi situation was an unfortunate instance of a bunch of circumstances all coming together all at once culminating in a relatively unprecedented event (although "desired" result I think is a bit of a stretch... I realize you said "possibly" but I hardly think the Nucks said "okay, we're going to almost kill this guy, literally"). I can see that. But I still also think that any other instances of pre-meditation, long-term or short-term, can result, potentially, in a similar injury and shouldn't be viewed as *too* terribly different.
 

bling

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Jun 23, 2004
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Remy said:
And on another note...... I was doing a 'Google' search for articles concerning 'retribution' and 'premediation' when I came upon a Canadian site called: The Law Connection. There was an article entitled Violence In Sports which talked about the Bertuzzi/Moore case. I found the following quote interesting in regards to the position that the defence may take in a Civil trial:

Any opinions on such a defence strategy?

;)

It has no bearing here in my opinion. Bertuzzi already admitted in criminal court to criminal assault causing bodily injury. That plea is the basis of the civil action. Bertuzzi can not go into court now and claim that Steve Moore ascented to being assualted.
 

Kickassguy

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lemieux32 said:
Wow, get some anger management therapy, you are acting like Bertuzzi. Where did I put any words in your mouth? I simply made a point about the Canuck fans rally. So I think it is you who should be quiet before you get into trouble with the mods for those anger issues.

I have no problems with the mods whatsoever. And the fact that you quoted my post in your reply insinuated you were directing your reply towards me. You're not going to weasel out of this one.
 

lemieux32*

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Kickassguy said:
I have no problems with the mods whatsoever. And the fact that you quoted my post in your reply insinuated you were directing your reply towards me. You're not going to weasel out of this one.

I am sure the mods love people telling others to "go to hell." I also think if any weaseling is going to happen it will be you. You might want to take a look at this and then do some editing or apologizing:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=4808178#post4808178
 

lemieux32*

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KrisKing said:
You are really turning into the pot calling all of us kettles black.

Another quality post. :biglaugh: Still waiting for that info on the Naslund hit question...you know the other one you have been avoiding in this thread.
 

KrisKing*

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lemieux32 said:
Another quality post. :biglaugh: Still waiting for that info on the Naslund hit question...you know the other one you have been avoiding in this thread.

Seriously, you have turned into a complete jackass.

The Moore hit to me looked like an elbow, not to mention a cheapshot on someone without the puck who wasn't even on his feet.

That said, I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts.
 

lemieux32*

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KrisKing said:
Seriously, you have turned into a complete jackass.

The Moore hit to me looked like an elbow, not to mention a cheapshot on someone without the puck who wasn't even on his feet.

That said, I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts.

Obviously you never looked at the photo sequence I posted or you would know that it was not an elbow and Naslund was reaching for the puck, putting himslef (note that last word) in a bad position. Run away now.
 
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PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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Alan Jackson said:
Yeah, you're probably right. I guess it is top-50, though I'll admit to not watching every hockey game ever played.

Since most here barely remember the 80's, of course it's in the top 50's for them. But when you consider the entire history of the NHL and even before it's formation, it's not absurd.

There have been some incredibly violent actions on the ice, and a great many of them have been forgotten. No televison coverage, little writeups in the paper that have long been destroyed, etc. No Regis and Kelly to fan the flames.

My Dad said he saw things in the 30's etc that were way worse than anything he saw in the past 20 years.
 

Holly Golightly

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Aug 3, 2005
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Hockey's Bloody Past

PecaFan said:
Since most here barely remember the 80's, of course it's in the top 50's for them. But when you consider the entire history of the NHL and even before it's formation, it's not absurd.

There have been some incredibly violent actions on the ice, and a great many of them have been forgotten. No televison coverage, little writeups in the paper that have long been destroyed, etc. No Regis and Kelly to fan the flames.

My Dad said he saw things in the 30's etc that were way worse than anything he saw in the past 20 years.

Well, it is a bit off topic, but for what it is worth:
1922 - Sprague Cleghorn injured three Ottawa Senators’ players in a brawl, leading Ottawa police to offer to arrest him.

1969 - In a pre-season game, Ted Green of the Boston Bruins and Wayne Maki of the St.Louis Blues were embroiled in a stick-swinging fight that resulted in a fractured skull for Green. Both were acquitted in court. The NHL suspended Maki for 30 days and handed a 13-day suspension to Green.
You can find more recorded incidents at Wikipedia
 

lemieux32*

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Kickassguy said:
Not gonna happen. But hey, thanks for trying.

That's what I thought, you shot your big mouth off about something, got the truth handed to you and now you run away with your tail tucked and your ego too fragile to admit you were wrong.
:biglaugh:
 

Kickassguy

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lemieux32 said:
That's what I thought, you shot your big mouth off about something, got the truth handed to you and now you run away with your tail tucked and your ego too fragile to admit you were wrong.
:biglaugh:

Wow, beautiful defense! The "I'm right because *I* think so" line! :biglaugh:

If that's the best you can come up with after being shot down, I gave your intelligence too much credit in the first place by responding to you.

Welcome to my ignore list. Have fun talking to yourself!
 

lemieux32*

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Kickassguy said:
Wow, beautiful defense! The "I'm right because *I* think so" line! :biglaugh:

If that's the best you can come up with after being shot down, I gave your intelligence too much credit in the first place by responding to you.

Welcome to my ignore list. Have fun talking to yourself!

Wow, the "ignore" defense. Obviously you didn't look at the link to the post you insist I quoted you in. You are just making yourself look foolish by fighting it. Just admit you were wrong. Be a man, have some balls.
 

lemieux32*

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The exact post that you are afraid of:

03-08-2006, 09:39 AM · #284
lemieux32
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kingpest19, dead on Bertuzzi and his buddies made this threats and announcements ahead of time. These examples are people speaking after they went after someone. Realize you are dealing with people who tried to hold a rally to show their support for Bertuzzi after that cowardly act.

Keep hiding
 

Kardi

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Jul 28, 2004
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the more and more he does this stuff i wish bertuzzi actually ended him for good.. will this kid ever give it up and lay low
 

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PecaFan said:
Since most here barely remember the 80's, of course it's in the top 50's for them. But when you consider the entire history of the NHL and even before it's formation, it's not absurd.

There have been some incredibly violent actions on the ice, and a great many of them have been forgotten. No televison coverage, little writeups in the paper that have long been destroyed, etc. No Regis and Kelly to fan the flames.

My Dad said he saw things in the 30's etc that were way worse than anything he saw in the past 20 years.
Which makes you wonder why the Canucks acted like it was the assassanation of Franz Ferdinand when Naslund got knocked out of three games.
 

Wetcoaster

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ZaphodBeeblebrox said:
well, more likely the lawsuit is because the statute of limitations was almost up. I am not bringing up anything that hasn't already been said but I wish Mr. Moore's lawyer luck in proving it was Bertuzzi and not the # of players who piled onto Bertuzzi and Moore after the hit that caused the damage.

You want compensation, sue them all.

Bertuzzi really hasn't done more than most hockey players in 1000's of leagues do every night. He was trying to instigate a fight and hit the other player. This hit happened to put Moore down, Bertuzzi fell on him and players from both teams piled on.

I feel for Mr. Moore, but you agree to certain "rules of conduct" when you lace up in any league. Taking the argument outside of the NHL is not right.
Moore does not need to "sue them all".

Since Bertuzzi by his unlawful action set in motion a chain of events that resulted in Moore's injuries, Bertuzzi is responsible for ALL the injuries Moore suffered. The "dogpile" defence is a red herring.

Judge Weitzel in sentencing Bertuzzi was crystal clear on this point and the same applies in civil matters.

Judge Weitzel was also clear that Bertuzzi's actions were clearly outisde the "rules of conduct" and he dealt with that issue specifically in convicting Bertuzzi.
[15] After the punch lands, Moore falls, with Bertuzzi falling on top of him. Very quickly thereafter members of both teams join on to what is really a dog pile. After the referees become involved and pull the others off, it is clear that Mr. Moore is lying in a prone position on his chest. There is blood on the ice, and he is in obvious severe discomfort and pain.

[16] With respect to whether or not the defendant intentionally rode Moore to the ice, that is not a conclusion that this court could draw, nor is it one which the Crown urges the court to draw.

[17] As is shown in the video, at the time Bertuzzi let go of the stick in his right hand, the stick fell to the ground. It appears that his left foot mounted that prone stick at the time he punched Moore. Bertuzzi's falling forward is equally consistent with him having lost his balance from having stepped on his own stick.

[18] Nonetheless, I am satisfied that the injuries to the head and to the neck, and indeed other injuries that may have occurred, are directly or indirectly related to the punch. Had he not made the punch, then they wouldn't have gone to the ice.

[19] So I am satisfied for the purpose of these sentencing proceedings it is appropriate to consider all of the injuries.
.....

[36] There is a brief statement in one of the cases that has been referred to which really sets out the relationship of the courts to what goes on on the rink. It is an old decision. It is the case of R. v. Watson (1975), 26 C.C.C. (2d) 150. That was a case which involved an incident during a minor hockey game. There was a striking by one of them with a stick and then a fight and so on. The court there in considering the issue of provocation and all those sorts of things that come up whenever assault trials are heard, brings those principles down to the issue of a hockey game. I am quoting, about halfway through the case. The judge in that case states as follows:

Hockey is a fast, vigorous, competitive game involving much body contact. Were the kind of body contact that routinely occurs in a hockey game to occur outside the playing area or on the street, it would, in most cases, constitute an assault to which the sanctions of the criminal law would apply. Patently when one engages in a hockey game, one accepts that some assaults which would otherwise be criminal will occur and consents to such assaults. It is equally patent, however, that to engage in a game of hockey is not to enter a forum to which the criminal law does not extend. To hold otherwise would be to create the hockey arena a sanctuary for unbridled violence to which the law of Parliament and the Queen's justice could not apply. I know of no authority for such a proposition.
He goes on then to quote from the Maki case, which is one of the first cases involving an NHL hockey player, that:

No sports league, no matter how well organized or self-policed it may be, should thereby render the players in that league immune from criminal prosecution.

[37] So that is what is in play here.

[38] The confronting of Moore initially may have been within the bounds of the game. To then have the pursuit literally down the ice and then to grab by the sweater in order to get that player to engage in something which it is clear he did not wish to consent to, clearly went beyond the reasonable limits of the game and is an aggravating factor.
http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments/pc/2004/04/p04_0472.htm

Pretty clear how the law treats this.
 

Wetcoaster

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Ensane said:
In the US, during criminal arraignments, when defendants plea bargain, the judge instructs them that their plea of no contest can be used against them in civil proceedings. Not 100% sure about BC (wetcoaster?), but I wouldn't doubt it if it were similar/the same.

This alone would render half of the pro-Bertuzzi arguments in this thread moot and useless.
Pretty much the same in Canada.

By pleading guilty Berttuzzi has admitted to the elements of the tort of battery. Assault causing bodily is the criminal equivalent of the tort and since a criminal conviction is based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt and a civil wrong (tort) only requires proof on the balance of probabilities (i.e. greater than 50% that it occurred) liability for battery by Bertuzzi is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
 
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