Give GMJR a Grade (cumulative)

[Speaking Moistly]

Scuderi's contract is so stupidly unmoveable that it's like Shero's did it on purpose. 4 years, until he's 38 or whatever, the limited NTC and a possible NMC, all at 3.375M a year in a league that sprinted away from his game. Managing to move that turd is worth a full letter grade improvement.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Don't see how you could give him such bad marks for converting Neal into a similar-quality player. Spaling was a waste, but Hornqvist has a real identity here. I would think the grade at least improves in retrospect with the acquisition of Kessel.

That's the key. Hornqvist brings great work ethic and dirty goals but was still a scoring downgrade, and we missed having a sniper last season. Kessel addresses that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Dear god. These guys are 12th or 13th forwards on their teams if they are even in the NHL and they were expected to contribute to playoff team. This is why you lost your job Shero.

That post was comparing an injured playoff team with a 64 mil cap against a healthy preseason team with a 71 mil cap.

You might as well compare Shero's defense from the start of the '13-'14 season to Rutherford's at the end of the '15 playoffs.

 

[Asuna]

They were 35-17-9 79 and only 4 points out of first place in the East when they made that move; http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/2015/2/25/

Pretty safe to say they still viewed themselves as contenders at that point.

That's great. They still weren't contenders, to me.

 

[Asuna]

He was great for Toronto all year and we needed better size and depth.

For all my criticisms of JR last year, I'm not going to get on him for Perron or Winnik. Both guys represented things we needed. What pisses me off most is when we make moves that either set back the big league roster or have no rhyme or reason to them. And there were no shortage of those in '13-'14.

I understand the thought process behind it. He was still unnecessary. He wasn't the missing piece or anything.

 

[Waffle Fries]

That post was comparing an injured playoff team with a 64 mil cap against a healthy preseason team with a 71 mil cap.

You might as well compare Shero's defense from the start of the '13-'14 season to Rutherford's at the end of the '15 playoffs.

Who was injured other than Dupuis? Sub him in for Gibbons and that's still a pretty awful roster.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I understand the thought process behind it. He was still unnecessary. He wasn't the missing piece or anything.

Any time teams make trades at the deadline involving higher round picks and don't win the Cup, that sort of criticism is going to happen.

We were near the top of the conference. Winnik brought a few things we needed. Nobody knows what a missing piece is until you get it and it happens. Friggin' Gill and Guerin were our missing pieces in a year when Malkin had Talbot and Fedotenko on his wing. You don't know unless you try.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Who was injured other than Dupuis? Sub him in for Gibbons and that's still a pretty awful roster.

Bennett had been playing injured to the point where he was scratched for that 7th game.

People glide over the effect that the cap had on a GM's ability to provide depth too. I mean, does anyone honestly think an extra 7 mil in Shero's back pocket was just going to go unused with that forward corps?

 

[Waffle Fries]

Bennett had been playing injured to the point where he was scratched for that 7th game.

He was playing injured, but that's not why he was scratched.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He was playing injured, but that's not why he was scratched.

However you want to justify it, he was part of the roster. Choosing the 7th game of the playoffs seems an artificial and cheesy snapshot to compare to a preseason roster (as I said, you might as well compare the preseason '13-'14 defense with the 7th game of the '15 playoffs), even considering why capwise the comparison's pretty flawed to begin with.

Here's 64 mil. Now try to re-shape our current roster with that instead of 71 mil and see what the end result looks like.

 

[Waffle Fries]

However you want to justify it, he was part of the roster. Choosing the 7th game of the playoffs seems an artificial and cheesy snapshot to compare to a preseason roster (as I said, you might as well compare the preseason '13-'14 defense with the 7th game of the '15 playoffs), even considering why capwise the comparison's pretty flawed to begin with.

Here's 64 mil. Now try to re-shape our current roster with that instead of 71 mil and see what the end result looks like.

I feel like it should be fairly obvious that the reason I chose the Game 7 roster was because that was the last team iced with Shero as the GM. That is what he left the team with.

If you want to sub in Bennett and Dupuis for Gibbons and Glass, go ahead. That doesn't change the fact that the roster assembled there was dramatically worse than the roster currently assembled.

You keep pushing this idea that the salary cap was holding Shero back, but he had times with plenty of cap space and had plenty of opportunities to create some by moving Niskanen or Orpik and chose not to do anything.

 

[HugoStiglitz]

Surprised more people haven't mentioned the hiring of Johnston. Didn't think he was the right guy then, still don't.

That alone puts JR below an A, combine that with Despres and he is a B-/C+ for me.

Oh yeah didn't like the Ehrhoff signing, completly unnecessary, said so at the time, think the team would have been much better either re-signing Niskanen or extending Martin, especially now that they have moved Despres AND Harrington.

I'm actually a fan of Johnston. When the team was healthy his system was driving teams crazy. Also, given the defense they went into the playoffs with against the Rangers and holding them to no more than two goals a game? I'd say he did a pretty terrific job.

His system is also a far cry from the Bylsma "dump and retrieve" system.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I feel like it should be fairly obvious that the reason I chose the Game 7 roster was because that was the last team iced with Shero as the GM. That is what he left the team with.

If you want to sub in Bennett and Dupuis for Gibbons and Glass, go ahead. That doesn't change the fact that the roster assembled there was dramatically worse than the roster currently assembled.

You keep pushing this idea that the salary cap was holding Shero back, but he had plenty of cap space to work with and did very little with it.

That team was assembled under the assumption that the current preseason speculative rosters are: that Dupuis and Bennett will be healthy. That's why they should be included.

JR did a great job re-shaping the forward ranks. But it's painfully obvious that acquiring both quality top end and depth requires cap space, something Shero never had the luxury of. I think shaving 7 mil off our current roster would change things considerably.

Shero had as much opportunity to move Orpik or Nisky as JR did to move Martin. Neither did, and only one of those GMs actually got into roster-implicating cap issues at the end of the year.

 

[Pete Gas]

I think MJ deserves more time than just 1 season.

 

[Waffle Fries]

That team was assembled under the assumption that the current preseason speculative rosters are: that Dupuis and Bennett will be healthy. That's why they should be included.

JR did a great job re-shaping the forward ranks. But it's painfully obvious that acquiring both quality top end and depth requires cap space, something Shero never had the luxury of. I think shaving 7 mil off our current roster would change things considerably.

Shero had as much opportunity to move Orpik or Nisky as JR did to move Martin. Neither did, and only one of those GMs actually got into roster-implicating cap issues at the end of the year.

Even if you include Dupuis and Bennett, it's not a good roster. As I said in the other thread, you can't just say that Rutherford had 7M more to work with. That's disingenuous. We've had three important players on our roster need new contracts that took up a large chunk of that space.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Even if you include Dupuis and Bennett, it's not a good roster. As I said in the other thread, you can't just say that Rutherford had 7M more to work with. That's disingenuous. We've had three important players on our roster need new contracts that took up a large chunk of that space.

I addressed that. There is still a discrepancy capwise...we couldn't ice the same depth if we were working with that cap.

But the forward ranks clearly look better with Bennett and Dupuis over cannon fodder, which was my main point here.

 

[Asuna]

Any time teams make trades at the deadline involving higher round picks and don't win the Cup, that sort of criticism is going to happen.

We were near the top of the conference. Winnik brought a few things we needed. Nobody knows what a missing piece is until you get it and it happens. Friggin' Gill and Guerin were our missing pieces in a year when Malkin had Talbot and Fedotenko on his wing. You don't know unless you try.

I posted this earlier...

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Comeau
Winnik - Sutter - Downie
Spaling - Lapierre - Bennett

If you think you can win the Cup with that forward group...and you thought Winnik would put them over the top....you've got quite the misguided opinion. The Penguins thought they had a good enough team to win it all. That is shallow forward depth. Winnik was not helping them enough to win the cup. But just my opinion I guess.

 

[mpp9]

Bennett had been playing injured to the point where he was scratched for that 7th game.

People glide over the effect that the cap had on a GM's ability to provide depth too. I mean, does anyone honestly think an extra 7 mil in Shero's back pocket was just going to go unused with that forward corps?

Who do you think he's spending that money on?

All indications would be that he'd go back to what was familiar. If he and Dan stayed, I bet they trade for Kesler (apparently Kesler wanted to play here b/c of DB). Instead of playing him on wing, they use the 3C model and re-sign at least one of Orpik, Nisky and Martin. So in a few years, we have Kesler at the same money Kessel's making probably playing like a normal 3C, a very expensive #4 D-man in Nisky and/or one of Orpik/Martin in their late 30's.

You think that's a better plan?

 

[plaidchuck]

Eh I don't know, I think mjs system got figured out quickly. Remember the metro games before the injuries where they got absolutely pummeled?

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Don't see how you could give him such bad marks for converting Neal into a similar-quality player. Spaling was a waste, but Hornqvist has a real identity here. I would think the grade at least improves in retrospect with the acquisition of Kessel.

It's not about Hornqvist, he's a great player. The problem was Neal was viewed as a more valuable trade chip around the league and they took on Nashville's cap dump. They should have demanded a pick or moved a bad contract the other way.

 

[The Old Master]

if we still had despres.....I would feel so much better about this team going into next yr. and I can't see any way to replace him. grade ..."d"

 

[66-30-33]

I'll give him a B, only because he ****ed up a few times.

 

[The Greatest 101]

Under JR,the defense corps also went from...
Martin-Letang
Maatta-Nisky
Orpik-Engo
Scuderi-Bortz
Depres-Dumoulin

To

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot-Cole
Scuderi-Lovejoy
Dumoulin-Erixon
Clenndening-Anderson

Why do people always ignore this?

 

[mpp9]

Under JR,the defense corps also went from...
Martin-Letang
Maatta-Nisky
Orpik-Engo
Scuderi-Bortz
Depres-Dumoulin

To

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot-Cole
Scuderi-Lovejoy
Dumoulin-Erixon
Clenndening-Anderson

Why do people always ignore this?

I choose one of Pouliot and Dumoulin in our top 4 over seeing Brian Gibbons and Jayson Megna next to Sid and Geno.

We drafted Pouliot and Dumoulin to play in the NHL. They're ready. Play them.

Pouliot on his ELC can be a huge X factor for us. He has it in him to make a huge impact for us.

 

[66-30-33]

Under JR,the defense corps also went from...
Martin-Letang
Maatta-Nisky
Orpik-Engo
Scuderi-Bortz
Depres-Dumoulin

To

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot-Cole
Scuderi-Lovejoy
Dumoulin-Erixon
Clenndening-Anderson

Why do people always ignore this?

Now do the same thing for the forward group we have now and pre JR. JR also is dealing with a few of Shero's dumb contracts like Kunitz, Scuderi, Dupuis. Subtract those, the D will likely look better. Nothing TOTALLY wrong with our D, it's just really young and green. With the forward group we have, D wont look so "sexy" for obvious reasons.