No idea if he’s actually a guy you missed or just a random guy who had a couple good games when I saw him. He doesn’t really put up numbers but I like his skating, skill and offensive flashes along with a solid defensive game. Just some interesting tools and a couple good all-around performances.
German Prospects for the NHL Draft
- Thread starter Maverick41
- Start date
Central Scouting ranks:
C:
Paul Mayer
Watchlist:
Jakob Ficenec
Nick Mähler
Clemens Sager
Simon Seidl
Linus Vieillard
C:
Paul Mayer
Watchlist:
Jakob Ficenec
Nick Mähler
Clemens Sager
Simon Seidl
Linus Vieillard
GermanSpitfire
EU Video Scout for McKeen’s
Not even a mention of Tropmann.
That’s definitely disappointing but they really are down on a lot of small players this year, so a smaller, late birthday defender not playing in the highest mens league in Germany certainly isn’t going to get much fanfare.
That’s definitely disappointing but they really are down on a lot of small players this year, so a smaller, late birthday defender not playing in the highest mens league in Germany certainly isn’t going to get much fanfare.
Despite not seeing him play much yet, Here is some fun food for thought guys:
Since inception in 18-19 only 5 other players have averaged over a point per game under the age of 17 in the DNL. Please see them listed :
Tim Stützle - 21 GP • 2.62 p/g • 18-19
Lukas Reichel - 32 GP • 1.31 p/g • 18-19
Fabian Herrmann - 35 GP • 1.29 p/g • 18-19
Florian Elias - 27 GP • 1.22 p/g • 18-19
Clemens Sager - 14 GP • 1.07 p/g • 22-23
Why is this interesting? Because based on P/G, David Lewandowski would slot in right in between Tim Stutzle and Lukas Reichel currently.
Lewandowski - 13 GP • 1.77 p/g • 23-24
Obviously this does not guarantee quality, but it does make me very interested to see him play. It also may indicate he could play some games with Germany's U20 team this season as Stützle and Reichel both played for the U20 team a bit in 18 - 19 and Reichel's numbers were less impressive in the DNL than Lewandowski's thus far.
Any thoughts guys?
Since inception in 18-19 only 5 other players have averaged over a point per game under the age of 17 in the DNL. Please see them listed :
Tim Stützle - 21 GP • 2.62 p/g • 18-19
Lukas Reichel - 32 GP • 1.31 p/g • 18-19
Fabian Herrmann - 35 GP • 1.29 p/g • 18-19
Florian Elias - 27 GP • 1.22 p/g • 18-19
Clemens Sager - 14 GP • 1.07 p/g • 22-23
Why is this interesting? Because based on P/G, David Lewandowski would slot in right in between Tim Stutzle and Lukas Reichel currently.
Lewandowski - 13 GP • 1.77 p/g • 23-24
Obviously this does not guarantee quality, but it does make me very interested to see him play. It also may indicate he could play some games with Germany's U20 team this season as Stützle and Reichel both played for the U20 team a bit in 18 - 19 and Reichel's numbers were less impressive in the DNL than Lewandowski's thus far.
Any thoughts guys?
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Yep, that was the first thing that popped out at me too.
But I didn't give it all too much thought because I think I know why (and don't wanna mention it in public).
His big test - and perhaps arrival for some in the scouting community - will need to be the WJC.
I was nonetheless pleasantly surprised that they gave Sager a HM while the others (aside from Mähler) aren't toooo surprising, even if surely born of the Hlinka Gretzky Cup (which wouldn't explain why Tropmann didn't pop out to them enough there for a HM).
Well, Lewandowski was a bit of a no-show at the Hlinka Gretzky this summer. Too ineffective. Too simplistic and thus, readable. Very easy to not only shut down, but force into errrors.
He did better at a little U17 tourney that took place right after that.
As for the U20.... Abstreiter has kind of been sticking to his older generations for these tourneys to date. He hasn't been one to bring all too many underagers (i.e. players under 18) and at the moment, there's little reason to believe he'll be changing that this year. In fact, he's got a pretty widespread group of young men to chose from.
This is important to note because A) Lewandowski won't be even 17 until February and B) Abstreiter was Germany's coach at the Hlinka Gretzky Cup.
We'll soon have the break where both the U20 and U18 will be playing in little test tourneys with 3 games in 4 or 5 days. The U20 teams seen there have often been pretty good indications of who the Germans will go to battle with in December. And for this year, we should definitely assume that Hauf, Sumpf, Panocha, and Lutz will be surefire participants at the WJC, but they'll not be brought over from North America for these test games. So, maybe he'd get a look.
But I'm thinking they see Lewandowski as a possibly big piece of the U18 puzzle in gaining promotion at the D1A U18 tourney in Denmark next April, so he'll most likely be with that team in all sessions this winter. That team has a new coach. The organization will surely place importance on him getting as many reps with the key U18 players as possible.
With Lewandowski I am wondering if he may have been (and still would be) better off going to Sweden or North America.
Watching him at the hlinka it felt like he had never seen anything remotely like that level of play and could not adapt. He tried to play the same game he gets to play with his club. Except he did not have the time and space to pull off any nifty passes and could not create any time and space for himself by effectively protecting the puck, because the opponents were good enough to easily knock him off the puck or simply take it away.
Maybe if he constantly faced a higher level of competition and was forced to play at higher speed, he could adapt at some point.
He has the skills to excel at a higher level if he can learn to process the game at a faster pace.
I still have high hopes for him, but he has to get back on track, because his development appears to have stalled/slowed down for a while now.
I have similar concerns with the Griva twins. The DNL is just not a good development league for players at their level.
I would not be surprised if guys like Bleicher or Zwickl who play in a pro league quite regularly and not exclusively in the DNL actually catch up to the Grivas and Lewandowskis of the world or outright surpass them.
Watching him at the hlinka it felt like he had never seen anything remotely like that level of play and could not adapt. He tried to play the same game he gets to play with his club. Except he did not have the time and space to pull off any nifty passes and could not create any time and space for himself by effectively protecting the puck, because the opponents were good enough to easily knock him off the puck or simply take it away.
Maybe if he constantly faced a higher level of competition and was forced to play at higher speed, he could adapt at some point.
He has the skills to excel at a higher level if he can learn to process the game at a faster pace.
I still have high hopes for him, but he has to get back on track, because his development appears to have stalled/slowed down for a while now.
I have similar concerns with the Griva twins. The DNL is just not a good development league for players at their level.
I would not be surprised if guys like Bleicher or Zwickl who play in a pro league quite regularly and not exclusively in the DNL actually catch up to the Grivas and Lewandowskis of the world or outright surpass them.
I'm honestly not surprised because, as we've talked about many times, he plays a very unconventional style for a player his size that probably doesn't translate all too well. He throws multiple crushing hits every game, is good offensively but without dynamic or high-end skating and stickhandling. That's not really what gets you to the NHL at 5'11''.
That said, I watched both Cologne games on the weekend and he was dominant. Really shouldn't be in the DNL anymore. I think the CHL would have been great for him.
Definitely looking forward to seeing Lewandowski at the international level again after getting some DNL time (and doing really well there). At the start of the season, I didn't think he looked great, not only at the Hlinka but in the DNL too. But now he's clearly the best player on his team and looks really impressive. I still have some issues/question marks with him, especially when it comes to his foot speed, but he's been so, so impressive.
I don't think North America really would have made sense for him. As an 07, he wouldn't be allowed to play major junior yet and the jump from German U17 would've been way too big. Maybe a Canadian academy would've been good, but that's crazy expensive. He should be a strong candidate for the CHL next season though.
Speaking of the Canadian academies, though, an interesting note re. the DNL not being a good development league. Generally I agree. However, Philipp Nuss was a decent player (decent, nothing special) at Delta Academy, one of the best programs in the country, last season. Delta, like several other CSSHL programs, consistently produces NHL-level talent. In 2021-22, the U17 team's top scorers were NHL prospects Miguel Marques, Jordan Gavin, Thomas Mrsic and Cayden Lindstrom. Lukas Dragicevic was there the previous year.
What I'm getting at is that Nuss was a top-10 scorer on his team. Now he's in Cologne as a 17-year-old, playing on the fourth line and he's without a point through 13 games. The DNL is certainly different from North American leagues and generally weaker than North American major junior or even Jr. A, but it's still a very tough league to play in as a 16- or 17-year-old. So I really don't mind guys like Lewandowski or the Grivas taking the next step there before moving on to bigger things.
There might be individual cases where the Oberliga is a better spot, like with Bleicher, whose DNL team plays in the DNL 2. But generally, I really don't mind the DNL as a step between U17 and major junior or pro for German prospects. Certainly didn't hurt Seider, Stützle or Reichel either.
I appreciate your insights here. I think there are 2 things in favor for him here in regards to the Hlinka tournament. First, he was kind of an underaged player, not really underaged, but still the players that were supposed to dominate the hlinka were the 06s in their draft year. Second, the jump from German u17 to a world tournament may actually be a bit of shell shock. A lot of the kids in that tournament are already used to playing at the junior level and dominanting. I would hope that if he goes back to the Hlinka next year he should have an improved showing.
I have no clue about the Oberliga, but I really like the point you are making. The DNL may not be as strong as USHL or Canadian Major Junior, but Germany does have the ability develop homegrown talent. It can and already has produced very good players. The DNL definitely did not hurt Stützle, Reichel, or Seider. They did follow it up with a stint in the DEL, but I would say all 3 actually proved homegrown talent can be high NHL picks.
Outside of Redbull academy, Players should not be leaving the country for "superior development". As those 3 proved it is unnecessary to leave and it only hurts the competition level in the German leagues.
I think more exposure to Swedish/Finnish/NA hockey at youth levels may be a decent move to improve further. The NA and Canadian teams meet at tournaments all the time. The US also has Nationals and thats definitely a big deal scouting and competition wise. An EU version of Nationals or a Youth Champions League seems like an great idea. It is actually so good of an idea I am convinced it has to already exist. If it doesn't, someone tell a person with actual influence that a Youth Champions League is a must.
Oswald is on Fire at the DEL last 5 Games
www.eliteprospects.com
There might be not same the peak level for the U20s like with the 2002s but there is a solid depth at forwards with Oswald, Lutz, Kechter, Elias, Hauf, Sumpf, Bicker….Defensive might fall off
Veit Oswald at eliteprospects.com
Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Veit Oswald, 2004-08-31 Landshut, GER Germany. Most recently in the DEL with EHC München. Complete player biography and stats.
www.eliteprospects.com
There might be not same the peak level for the U20s like with the 2002s but there is a solid depth at forwards with Oswald, Lutz, Kechter, Elias, Hauf, Sumpf, Bicker….Defensive might fall off
Merkl (2006) starting to get impressing TOI at Nurnberg and got his first point too
www.eliteprospects.com
Never thought he could outrun Mayer or Tropmann as he is almost a year younger.
Maximilian Merkl at eliteprospects.com
Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Maximilian Merkl, 2006-06-27 Nürnberg, GER Germany. Most recently in the DEL with Nürnberg Ice Tigers. Complete player biography and stats.
www.eliteprospects.com
Never thought he could outrun Mayer or Tropmann as he is almost a year younger.
I think the big thing with Merkl is that he played at a lower level outside of the high-end junior programs for a very long time. While the rest of the 06s were all in Mannheim, Cologne or even Krefeld from a young age, he just did his thing close to home. Now while everyone else is kind of falling behind expectations, Merkl is taking over. He’s really grown on me over the past year, but it was impossible to really make a good projection based on the low level he was playing at. He does look legit now. Not sure about the draft yet, but he’s getting there. I thought he was way better than Ficenec at the Hlinka too, but Ficenec is an Allan Walsh / Octagon client (Mayer, Mähler and Sager too, by the way) and they usually have an easier time getting on CSS lists.Merkl (2006) starting to get impressing TOI at Nurnberg and got his first point too
Maximilian Merkl at eliteprospects.com
Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Maximilian Merkl, 2006-06-27 Nürnberg, GER Germany. Most recently in the DEL with Nürnberg Ice Tigers. Complete player biography and stats.
Never thought he could outrun Mayer or Tropmann as he is almost a year younger.
My goodness, Rio Kaiser is 6'7"?!?! He might get drafted just in hopes he can develop further at that height
Sure, but when you watch him, he is still clearly not fully comfortable with his height. And that's quite normal. He is often playing a bit hunched over and when it comes to making contact with opposing players he seem very conscious about making himself smaller to avoid hitting everyone in the head.
That can make him play a little tentative.
He has some great physical tools, and made some solid progress last season and it looks like he might take an even bigger step this year, but it is still a huge gamble if he can actually put it all together at some point.
He could benefit from being a late birthday so he is not eligible until the 2025 draft which will give him another season to develop. I am constantly hopping on and off his bandwagon.
Some of the things I see with Kaiser I also recall from Oliver Mebus, who looked like he was still adjusting to his body and filling out his frame in his early twenties. I was not following our prospects nearly as closely in Mebus' day, so I may not remember this correctly, but I think by comparison Kaiser is slightly ahead on the development curve.
We have a few huge defensemen coming up. Darian Rolsing is just 15 years old but already 6'5''. I am kind of hoping he doesn't grow much more because at that height he is still a pretty good skater and I am not sure if he can keep that up if he grows another couple of inches.
Separate question, but in theme here is EC Bad Tölz in a lower division or something? They have a couple 08s with over 2 pts/g in the u17 league, but they haven't played on the u16 national team.
Also a kid on Starbulls Rosenheim, Leitner, that has over 2 pts/g that hasn't seen the u16 national team.
Further down the road Mannheim seems to have a real talented group of 09s in the u17 league right now. At least on paper they are looking talented. It looks like 8 total 09s are pt/g or better in the u17 league right now. A couple haven't played many games, but still
Also a kid on Starbulls Rosenheim, Leitner, that has over 2 pts/g that hasn't seen the u16 national team.
Further down the road Mannheim seems to have a real talented group of 09s in the u17 league right now. At least on paper they are looking talented. It looks like 8 total 09s are pt/g or better in the u17 league right now. A couple haven't played many games, but still
For the moment I'll just share my thoughts on Bad Tölz, I'll need more time to get into the other parts of your post.
I have watched Bad Tölz a few times this season.
The team is good, but not great. They could have been way stronger if they had not lost their two best players in Quirin Schlager and Elias Schunke to the Red Bull Academy. Honestly, I expected Michael Feichtmair to be one of their top players this season, and he has been better than his point totals suggest, but he has been outperformed so far by Haßmann and Strauss. I thought Haßmann would be good, but not expect him to score this much. Strauss came sort of out of nowhere for me. Both look really good and especially Haßmann intrigues me, but there is a factor that may inflate their numbers and the numbers of all the bigger teams playing in the southern division a little bit.
This season they have two south divisions in this phase of the season where they are trying to qualify for the championship round. Unless I'm having a total blackout, they had only one south division last season. This means there are fewer games where they face their top competitors, since half of them are in the other division. And Bad Tölz and the other teams in their division get to beat up on a very weak Straubing team this season.
Once the championship round starts, we will see which players can keep up their scoring against the best competition available.
Have you had a chance to watch Kaiser live yet? I thought he looked way better live than on video. Still has a lot of work to do but live you could really see what his upside is all about.
No, still limited to streams and such. At least the quality of the streams has improved so it doesn't feel like watching an 8bit video game.
Good catch.
I had totally missed him last season and meant to add him for this season, and I had (at least in my head). I remember debating with myself how to rank the trio of Kerbel, Biggins and Sager.
I know that I had settled on 31 players to rank, and figured I'll cut one to have an even 30, but Sager was not the one I meant to take out. Not sure exactly what happened. Maybe I confused him with Seeger again and took him out because I thought he was in the wrong category since Seeger is in the 2025 group. I know it happened to me before when I ranked Seeger fro 2024 because I mixed him up with Sager.
I'll update the ranking a little later. Expect him in that 14-15 range.
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It is so weird seeing Mannheim's U20 not even qualify for the Championship round.
I am not entirely sure what to make of it. Is it a further sign of the decline of Mannheim's youth program? Or is it a positive sign for German hockey as more teams appear to be on a similar level?
In the qualification round where Mannheim finished 5th out of 7 teams the lowest scoring team (Iserlohn) finished last while scoring 34 goals in 12 games, while the highest scoring team and top finisher (Landshut) had 42 goals in 12 games. That is unusual parity for this level. The other group was less balanced but it feels like blowouts become rarer every season at the top level. I am just not sure if it's more teams catching up or our top programs getting weaker.
Maybe a bit of both.
I am not entirely sure what to make of it. Is it a further sign of the decline of Mannheim's youth program? Or is it a positive sign for German hockey as more teams appear to be on a similar level?
In the qualification round where Mannheim finished 5th out of 7 teams the lowest scoring team (Iserlohn) finished last while scoring 34 goals in 12 games, while the highest scoring team and top finisher (Landshut) had 42 goals in 12 games. That is unusual parity for this level. The other group was less balanced but it feels like blowouts become rarer every season at the top level. I am just not sure if it's more teams catching up or our top programs getting weaker.
Maybe a bit of both.
I initially thought the overall youth of Mannheim's team might play a role in it, as they had one 19-year-old, 8 or 9 18-year-olds and then a bunch of players younger than that, with several (like the 16-year old Grivas) expected to be offensive cogs.
Then again, Düsseldorf is apparently even younger than Mannheim and they made it into the playoff round, boasting two 16-year-olds among their absolute top players.
I then looked around and saw that Regensburg, for example, not only had 5 foreigners among their top 10 scorers after 12 games (with the top two being foreigners who were among the overall topscorers in the league), but also a Czech goalie who had played in all 12 preliminary round contests. Makes me wonder if that's what the DNL is supposed to be about? Granted, I think some of those foreigners count as German players as well.
In general though, maybe the short amount of just 12 games in the preliminary round is a bit damning in and of itself. If I saw correctly, you play some teams twice at home and some twice on the road. That kind of thing can make a difference.
I'm thinking that if the preliminary round were 24 instead of 12 games, the cream has more time to float to the top. In the 12-game instance, you get punished hard for not coming out of the gate on all cylinders.
Many god and interesting points.
Regensburg certainly benefitted from older foreign players, especially Angaran and Giesl playing huge roles, but they also had the Kose twins playing key roles and doing well.
Krefeld had Nikita Krymskiy and Carl Konze playing in a lot of or all games respectively, Last year Krymskiy played pretty much a full season in DEL2 this season not so much. Konze also has siginificant pro experience.
What surprised me about Mannheim is, that on paper their team should still be able to challenge for the title. But many players I thought highly of, before the season, are not really delivering for them. They are now playing in the qualification round for next seasons top group and are in first place, but the Grivas have yet to score a single point. Gustavs has only played in 2 of 6 games and Rihards in 4 of 6. The 2007 top scorer for Mannheim in that round is Denis Root (second in scoring on the team overall).
It's just weird seeing this team go from dominating every year, to being one of the top teams the last few seasons to a middle of the pack team this season. For many other teams it is normal that they have ups and downs from season to season as they will sometimes have a great class and then a year later a pretty bad one. Mannheim was just always so consistent. They would always get the best players if they wanted them and that showed.
Thing would probably look different if they had Mayer (played only 2 games and went scoreless), Bicker, Brandl and Niehus on the roster. Not sure they would have been able to challenge Köln, but they surely would have finished the preliminary round in the top 4.
I'll have to check my data and see if there may be more 04s playing in the DNL this season than 03s in the season before.
Usually most 19-year-olds that really make a difference have already graduated to pro hockey to the point where they will at least miss some games. And it's the 18-year-olds that dominate the DNL along with the absolute best of the younger players.
Tomorrow I will look into the statistics a little deeper. Not just the average age of all teams but also the average age of every game played and every point scored. But now I am heading to bed. It'll be a nice change to go to sleep at a normal hour by my standards.
Willhöft left Rögle and will play for Mannheim.
Will be interesting, if he can dominate DNL - Qualifikationsrunde 1.
Will be interesting, if he can dominate DNL - Qualifikationsrunde 1.
If Mannheim is lucky, he'll really jumpstart the Grivas.
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