Post-Game Talk (GBU): generational ugly

[Sabre the Win]

Except for that beautiful set up he gave to Eichel in the 2nd, right?

The pass itself could be done by any competent NHLer however the hardest thing for Kane to do in that situation which I'm impressed with is he actually passed rather than shooting a low percentage shot.

 

[BowieSabresFan]

It's fair criticism. I just don't think his Overall Corsi is fully reflective of his offensive zone play at all.

First, let's acknowledge that his Corsi is better than Eichel and Ennis. Are they terrible offensive players?

Let's look at what is driving the narrative and where it loses context... Larsson has a negative Corsi On and Corsi Rel. It's still 7th and 6th best on the team... but let's ignore that for now. What's the real narrative?

Eichel CF w/ Larsson 55.14
Eichel CF w/o Larsson 54.34
Eichel CA w/ Larsson 54.43
Eichel CA w/o Larsson 58.72

So Larsson isn't holding Eichel's Corsi For back at all (slight improvement actually), but is driving down Corsi against. For net improvement of 2.2% in Corsi (48.1% to 50.3%)

Reinhart has played a significant amount of time (thus far) with Larsson as well. And as one of the 3 possession drivers on the team (Oreilly, Reinhart, Larsson), he's sees a noticeable increase in possession, even above his notable numbers in any scenario.

Reinhart CF w/ Larsson 54.86
Reinhart CF w/o Larsson 53.22
Reinhart CA w/ Larsson 43.71
Reinhart CA w/o Larsson 47.39
Reinhart w/ Larsson Corsi % = 55.7%
Reinhart w/o Larsson Corsi % = 52.9%

Those are the 2 forwards Larsson has played with the most. They are both playing better with Larsson than without him. I also note that Foligno (3rd most played with) goes from 48.3 CF % to 51.0%...

Meanwhile, in short stints so far, Ennis (42.6% CF ww/ Larsson, Larsson is 51.1 without Ennis) and McGinn (47.3) have had some pretty big/bad impacts in much smaller sample time with Larsson pulling his overall Corsi down just enough for someone to make a limited contextual argument about his possession / ozone play. I think the above demonstrates not only that the narrative is flawed... but that the argument about his ability to play a top 6 role on a good team is flawed as well.

His play accentuates talent. Very much like Jochen did in his time in a top line role. I disagree completely that "on a good team" Larsson is a 3rd liner. Sure, he could be. But GOOD teams, find line balance and line chemistry.

Fair response, and obviously Larsson is a good complimentary piece. At some point though, it does have to result in points on the ice, both for him and his line mates. Hecht is a good counter-argument, but I still see Larsson as a more effective 3C, than a 2W on a good team.

And as a separate comment, no, at least this year Ennis has not been a good offensive player.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Reinhart has played a significant amount of time (thus far) with Larsson as well. And as one of the 3 possession drivers on the team (Oreilly, Reinhart, Larsson), he's sees a noticeable increase in possession, even above his notable numbers in any scenario.

This might be a dumb question, but why isn't ROR - Reinhart - Larsson our three centers, considering they are the 3 clear possession drivers of the team? You'd then use:
Eichel and Moulson with ROR,
Ennis and Kane with Reinhart
Girgs and Gionta with Larsson.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Because Bylsma doesn't trust Reinhart at C yet, even though we have a high level defensive winger who prefers his linemates put in their work off the puck.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Because Bylsma doesn't trust Reinhart at C yet, even though we have a high level defensive winger who prefers his linemates put in their work off the puck.

My point is that, based on Jame's numbers analyses, Bylsma's lack of trust is unfounded. In fact, I would say Bylsma's list of players of who he does and doesn't trust is among his most glaring shortcomings.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

My point is that, based on Jame's numbers analyses, Bylsma's lack of trust is unfounded. In fact, I would say Bylsma's list of players of who he does and doesn't trust is among his most glaring shortcomings.

Well, yeah. Most-everyone talking about deployment has accepted Bylsma's bad player-usage tendencies by now.

 

[Zip15]

Oh right, I forgot about his pass.
Singular.

The pass itself could be done by any competent NHLer however the hardest thing for Kane to do in that situation which I'm impressed with is he actually passed rather than shooting a low percentage shot.

He set up a glorious opportunity, now you marginalize it. Okay.

I think the "Kane never passez" meme is going to take on a life of its own until, ironically, he starts scoring goals.

Here's the YT. Go to the 1:25 mark. "Any competent NHLer" could fake out Klingberg like that - Klingberg's jock was on the floor - and feed the puck past an outstretched Seguin? Sure.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Well, yeah. Most-everyone talking about deployment has accepted Bylsma's bad player-usage tendencies by now.

anyone who knows Bylsma at all should know that his usage is terrible, which is where the push back against 'the Bylsma's usage is killing this team' comes from, we're stuck with his poor usage but he won a cup with his poor usage, the poor usage isn't going to change so its really unproductive to talk about his poor usage unless you are then bridging the argument into 'he should be fired'

 

[Chainshot]

Ugly - Missed three in a row now.

 

[sabrebuild]

anyone who knows Bylsma at all should know that his usage is terrible, which is where the push back against 'the Bylsma's usage is killing this team' comes from, we're stuck with his poor usage but he won a cup with his poor usage, the poor usage isn't going to change so its really unproductive to talk about his poor usage unless you are then bridging the argument into 'he should be fired'

He won a cup with someone else's team, with someone else's system, with a team who was in the finals the year before, and to his credit with his style of motivation.

Let's be frank, he took over halfway thru the season with a young team who hated their previous coach for being a hardass. He let the reins go loose and they responded.

Let's just not act like he won a cup, so usage doesn't matter, regardless of whether its tedious or bridged into a fire bylsma thread. That won't happen for a year or two short of something huge happening, so that thread or comment would be super boring and useless.

 

[gallagt01]

He set up a glorious opportunity, now you marginalize it. Okay.

I think the "Kane never passez" meme is going to take on a life of its own until, ironically, he starts scoring goals.

Here's the YT. Go to the 1:25 mark. "Any competent NHLer" could fake out Klingberg like that - Klingberg's jock was on the floor - and feed the puck past an outstretched Seguin? Sure.

Didn't Kane also have a very nice feed to Jack in the high slot from behind the goal line? Or was that someone else?

 

[Heraldic]

This might be a dumb question, but why isn't ROR - Reinhart - Larsson our three centers, considering they are the 3 clear possession drivers of the team? You'd then use:
Eichel and Moulson with ROR,
Ennis and Kane with Reinhart
Girgs and Gionta with Larsson.

Because we're not playing under Ted Nolan anymore.

By this I mean that we don't defend anymore the same way. Our defensive system is not anymore about defending your man, supressing shots and covering passing lanes.. (being a passive zone) We have moved towards a lot more aggressive, swarm type defensive system.

Basically defending is understood as covering your man and suppressing passing lanes. But that's not the bread and butter of modern, possession based defensive system. The point is not to wait for the opponent to make a mistake with the puck - the point is to break the possession before they have space and time to do anything.

And if you want to break the possession, you need to have all your defenders and your center to be able to get the puck carrier pinned against the boards, outmuscle your opponent, dig the puck, and be able to have the poise, speed and patiency to get a controlled zone-exit.

Neither of Reinhart or Larsson are exactly good at it atm. They are too weak and slow to be able to effectively break the possession, and they need legs and poise to be able to get controlled zone-entry WHILE BEING HEAVILY PRESSURED. And that is the reason most likely those two are not regularly played as centers atm.

Both of them are good at covering their man, positioning themselves and suppressing passing lanes. But you need more in a defensive system that wants to break the opponents possession as fast as possible.

Reinhart will get faster and stronger, and he has decent size. Larsson on the other hand most likely won't get clearly stronger, faster or bigger. He is a really good guy transitioning the puck when the puck is played to him after the opponent's possession has been broken. When he has the puck and is not under heavy pressure, he almost always makes a quick move that builds the play. But after now seeing how this team plays, I have little by little understood a bit more some of the decisions they have made.

Before the season started I also thought that Girgs should be a winger and Larsson a center. But I think I was just too used to watch a defensive system outdated. When you have watched the team being able to be possession wise dominant, and have seen how important role the breaking of the possession and getting a controlled zone-exit has, you emphasize more aspects than just being positionally sound and reading plays - which of course still matters a lot.

 

[flyingpig]

Didn't Kane also have a very nice feed to Jack in the high slot from behind the goal line? Or was that someone else?

That was Kane.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Because we're not playing under Ted Nolan anymore.

By this I mean that we don't defend anymore the same way. Our defensive system is not anymore about defending your man, supressing shots and covering passing lanes.. (being a passive zone) We have moved towards a lot more aggressive, swarm type defensive system.

Basically defending is understood as covering your man and suppressing passing lanes. But that's not the bread and butter of modern, possession based defensive system. The point is not to wait for the opponent to make a mistake with the puck - the point is to break the possession before they have space and time to do anything.

And if you want to break the possession, you need to have all your defenders and your center to be able to get the puck carrier pinned against the boards, outmuscle your opponent, dig the puck, and be able to have the poise, speed and patiency to get a controlled zone-exit.

Neither of Reinhart or Larsson are exactly good at it atm. They are too weak and slow to be able to effectively break the possession, and they need legs and poise to be able to get controlled zone-entry WHILE BEING HEAVILY PRESSURED. And that is the reason most likely those two are not regularly played as centers atm.

Both of them are good at covering their man, positioning themselves and suppressing passing lanes. But you need more in a defensive system that wants to break the opponents possession as fast as possible.

Reinhart will get faster and stronger, and he has decent size. Larsson on the other hand most likely won't get clearly stronger, faster or bigger. He is a really good guy transitioning the puck when the puck is played to him after the opponent's possession has been broken. When he has the puck and is not under heavy pressure, he almost always makes a quick move that builds the play. But after now seeing how this team plays, I have little by little understood a bit more some of the decisions they have made.

Before the season started I also thought that Girgs should be a winger and Larsson a center. But I think I was just too used to watch a defensive system outdated. When you have watched the team being able to be possession wise dominant, and have seen how important role the breaking of the possession and getting a controlled zone-exit has, you emphasize more aspects than just being positionally sound and reading plays - which of course still matters a lot.

I agreed with this line of thinking until I saw the advanced stat data. My whole point was that the data doesn't seem to backup this argument you're making.

 

[Heraldic]

I agreed with this line of thinking until I saw the advanced stat data. My whole point was that the data doesn't seem to backup this argument you're making.

Because their not doing the heavy lifting there. They're not the guys who break up the possession and do the most difficult play after that. But they do a lot of good things when the puck eventually comes to them. They are wingers on their line (or have been bulk of the season so far), not centers. They do their piece as wingers really well, but it's a lot different piece than what the centers do. And they also have easier matchups than the heavy lifters - especially Reinhart (Reinhart also has a lot of o-zone-starts).

It's not a coincidence that ROR and Girgs are the best centers possession wise corsi on. And I think the eye-test also confirms that they really often do break the possession and get the puck out controlled (while having the toughest matchups). They are clearly the two best forwards in our team atm doing so. And that is the reason why Bylsma most likely gives them the heavy lifting.

 

[Jame]

Because we're not playing under Ted Nolan anymore.

By this I mean that we don't defend anymore the same way. Our defensive system is not anymore about defending your man, supressing shots and covering passing lanes.. (being a passive zone) We have moved towards a lot more aggressive, swarm type defensive system.

Basically defending is understood as covering your man and suppressing passing lanes. But that's not the bread and butter of modern, possession based defensive system. The point is not to wait for the opponent to make a mistake with the puck - the point is to break the possession before they have space and time to do anything.

And if you want to break the possession, you need to have all your defenders and your center to be able to get the puck carrier pinned against the boards, outmuscle your opponent, dig the puck, and be able to have the poise, speed and patiency to get a controlled zone-exit.

Neither of Reinhart or Larsson are exactly good at it atm. They are too weak and slow to be able to effectively break the possession, and they need legs and poise to be able to get controlled zone-entry WHILE BEING HEAVILY PRESSURED. And that is the reason most likely those two are not regularly played as centers atm.

Anyone watching, no matter how much the dislike Larsson, should be able to recognize how wrong this statement is. You are describing Larsson's greatest strength, as a weakness. It's simply baffling.

If you are looking for a reason that Larsson isn't playing center, it's simple. Bylsma is looking for someone who can do all the things you said he can't do. Oreilly and Eichel at center has been set from day one... and Bylsma has used Larsson on those lines in a defensive, possession role. When on the 3rd line, Girgensons simply brings more speed and finish to center, while Larsson continues to be the guy doing all the things you think he cant do.

Seriously, are you watching the games?

 

[Jame]

Because their not doing the heavy lifting there. They're not the guys who break up the possession and do the most difficult play after that. But they do a lot of good things when the puck eventually comes to them. They are wingers on their line (or have been bulk of the season so far), not centers. They do their piece as wingers really well, but it's a lot different piece than what the centers do. And they also have easier matchups than the heavy lifters - especially Reinhart (Reinhart also has a lot of o-zone-starts).

It's not a coincidence that ROR and Girgs are the best centers possession wise corsi on. And I think the eye-test also confirms that they really often do break the possession and get the puck out controlled (while having the toughest matchups). They are clearly the two best forwards in our team atm doing so. And that is the reason why Bylsma most likely gives them the heavy lifting.

I think Larsson's Dzone start to Ozone finish highlights breaking possession as well as any corsi combined stat.

regarding Girgs possession numbers... missing out on 4 games vs Stl and Dal was helpful... and he's most common linemates this year are all veterans.

 

[Heraldic]

Anyone watching, no matter how much the dislike Larsson, should be able to recognize how wrong this statement is. You are describing Larsson's greatest strength, as a weakness. It's simply baffling.

I don't dislike Larsson. I have said several of times that I like him as a player. Just because someone else actually sees some holes in his game doesn't mean one hates him.

He's relatively strong with the puck, when he is moving. But he lacks the explosiveness, size and reach of Girgs and the dynamics of Ennis.

Just to be sure, you actually see Larsson's greatest strength being outmuscling and separating opponents from the puck?

For his size he is relatively strong, but it doesn't help a lot because he is pretty small. Larsson has the patiency and poise, but he doesn't have legs or reach to get the puck moved if all the passing options are neutralized and there is heavy pressure coming simltaneusly.

On the o-zone it's pretty usual to see Larsson being able to hold the puck pretty well when his feet are moving, but when the defender slows him down and gets him pinned against the board, Larsson is not able to outmuscle his way out. And he gets pinned against the boarder relatively easily, because he lacks the dynamics to operate fast and agile in tight spaces.

 

[Jame]

I don't dislike Larsson. I have said several of times that I like him as a player. Just because someone else actually sees some holes in his game doesn't mean one hates him.

He's relatively strong with the puck, when he is moving. But he lacks the explosiveness, size and reach of Girgs and the dynamics of Ennis.

Just to be sure, you actually see Larsson's greatest strength being outmuscling and separating opponents from the puck?

Yes, absolutely. One of his greatest strengths is his functional hockey strength. His boardwork offensively and defensively is as good as anyone on the team not named Oreilly.

For his size he is relatively strong, but it doesn't help a lot because he is pretty small. Larsson has the patiency and poise, but he doesn't have legs or reach to get the puck moved if all the passing options are neutralized and there is heavy pressure coming simltaneusly.

Stamp a couple plays from tonight's game for me. Maybe join us in the GDT.

On the o-zone it's pretty usual to see Larsson being able to hold the puck pretty well when his feet are moving, but when the defender slows him down and gets him pinned against the board, Larsson is not able to outmuscle his way out.
And he gets pinned against the boarder relatively easily, because he lacks the dynamics to operate fast and agile in tight spaces.

I really have no idea what you are watching. I'm becoming convinced you aren't.

 

[Heraldic]

I think Larsson's Dzone start to Ozone finish highlights breaking possession as well as any corsi combined stat.

If you actually watch the games, you should know that the majority of the breakings happen by d-men and centers... Larsson does his part really well, but it is a different part than what the centers do. Though I think he did a good job against Dallas as a center.

regarding Girgs possession numbers... missing out on 4 games vs Stl and Dal was helpful... and he's most common linemates this year are all veterans.

And now your bias is showing... Girgs numbers have been good all the season. And next you tell us his numbers are a result of him missing his games?

And you're actually trying to say that his linemates have helped him? He has played the majority of the season with Moulson and Gionta... IN A HIGHLY DEFENSIVE ROLE.

Are you serious?

 

[Heraldic]

Yes, absolutely. One of his greatest strengths is his functional hockey strength. His boardwork offensively and defensively is as good as anyone on the team not named Oreilly.

Either we're talking about a different thing or we just disagree. I'm not saying he is weak player around the boards (because he is not). And I think he is good along the boards when the puck is bit loose. But I absolutely don't think he is a good guy at pinning a moving player along the boards and getting the puck out of him. He rather follows his man, positions himself so that the player cannot proceed towards the net or make plays, than immediately breaks the possession. And the latter is a lot more needed action in a defensive system like ours.

Stamp a couple plays from tonight's game for me. Maybe join us in the GDT.

I honestly would like to attend more (or even little). But it's 2.00 AM here most nights, and when the game comes sooner, it's usually a weekend and I don't watch hockey then usually. I mean, I need to sleep a little to be even a bit functional at my work. And for example now I should have been sleeping couple of hours ago.

I really have no idea what you are watching. I'm becoming convinced you aren't.

Then we just disagree. I don't see him getting regularly out of the situation with the puck. Especially not against bigger d-men. But he has strength to keep himself being not pinned, if he keeps moving. Not every player of his size can do that. And that's the reason why he is able to hold the puck really well around the boards considering his size. I'm not saying he is being thrown around there or he is falling a lot - because that's absolutely not the case. He has a great balance and is not easily thrown, but with his size it's pretty unavoidable to get pinned, if the movement stops or slows enough.

 

[Jame]

If you actually watch the games, you should know that the majority of the breakings happen by d-men and centers... Larsson does his part really well, but it is a different part than what the centers do. Though I think he did a good job against Dallas as a center.

Classic Goal Post...

And now your bias is showing... Girgs numbers have been good all the season. And next you tell us his numbers are a result of him missing his games?

I didn't say his numbers havent been good all year. I said, his current measure against the rest of the team, is impacted by not playing in 3 games against Western Power houses... while everyone else played in those games.

That stuff will even out over the course of a season... but it's relevant to the current discussion where you tried to put Girgs in the same sentence as Oreilly (who faces significant tougher QOC)

And you're actually trying to say that his linemates have helped him? He has played the majority of the season with Moulson and Gionta... IN A HIGHLY DEFENSIVE ROLE.

Are you serious?

Veterans don't make as many mistakes as rookies, the type that end a possession, leave a transition lane unfilled, etc. As this was a conversation about possession and transition, I think it's relevant.

 

[Heraldic]

Classic Goal Post...

Care to elaborate a bit?

I didn't say his numbers havent been good all year. I said, his current measure against the rest of the team, is impacted by not playing in 3 games against Western Power houses... while everyone else played in those games.

Someone has said otherwise? So are you saying his numbers are distorted by his missing games or not? Or what is the point of this?

That stuff will even out over the course of a season... but it's relevant to the current discussion where you tried to put Girgs in the same sentence as Oreilly (who faces significant tougher QOC)

And then you conveniently forgot the fact that Girgs missing his games also affects his relative QOC-number (under the presumption his usage would have beent he same) and him missing games means higher QOC number for other players because Girgs is not having those minutes...

Veterans don't make as many mistakes as rookies, the type that end a possession, leave a transition lane unfilled, etc. As this was a conversation about possession and transition, I think it's relevant.

So you're saying that Moulson and Gionta are good possession and transition players? You're saying that Girgs numbers considering his usage is more the result of Gionta and Moulson doing great job rather than the result despite them not doing a great job?