GDT: GDT: Austria vs Česko

Czechboy

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Talking about hockey in Austria: They have (I believe) 3 junior teams playing in the AlpsHL. I am not sure if this is the right way.

They let juniors play vs. men, who usually have greater physical strength and more experience, but not so much of skill. Reminds me a bit of the Slovak national team development program (U20 team playing men in the Slovak Extraliga), which didn't bring the expected results, or the Czech "Dukla Project" (a lot of U20 players concetrated in one team playing the men's second league), which was recently stopped because it didn't bring the expected results either.

I think that junior players need to develop specific skills in specific age, and playing full grown, muscular guys who are not so great skaters, stickhandlers and so on doesn't help them develop these skills. The juniors are mostly getting smashed around the boards, desperately trying not to being outmuscled, often literally out-wrestled, and have a little room to play the kind hockey they need to play to make progress. If there are a few juniors on a men's team roster, it is OK. But I am sceptical on fully or almost fully junior teams playing vs. men.

What do you think?
That was the Slovak 'Orang' program too. I don't think it yielded the right results. Nor did 'Litmorice' which I never fully understood.lol

I like the idea of a centralized grouping as that works amazing for the US and Belarus had a similar model and were starting to get great U18 results. I'd love the Czechs to do something like that for the ones left in Europe as our team is very North American but we do have great players in Europe who seem to get lost in the shuffle. Stayling home seems to be a punhisment and I don't like that.
 

BigBadBoar

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That was the Slovak 'Orang' program too. I don't think it yielded the right results. Nor did 'Litmorice' which I never fully understood.lol

I like the idea of a centralized grouping as that works amazing for the US and Belarus had a similar model and were starting to get great U18 results. I'd love the Czechs to do something like that for the ones left in Europe as our team is very North American but we do have great players in Europe who seem to get lost in the shuffle. Stayling home seems to be a punhisment and I don't like that.

Yes, the Slovak "Orange" program I also mentioned wass maybe even bigger disaster "Dukla". Might be good having the best juniors kind of concentrated together but whom should they play? Which teams? I am not sure.
 
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WarriorofTime

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There are some major junior-based kids not making even the Latvian roster.

Austria is a prime example of a country stuck in the middle-tier trap. They have a self-sufficient minor pro league that is good enough to attract domestic prospects like a big old magnet, but that also means those same prospects are simply not being trained and developed efficiently, as the quality of their domestic system and coaches is just mediocre. They're all hitting a ceiling and are bound to become minor pro players at best.

And the exceptions are too few and too far between to really make a difference at any level.

They should be going abroad at a younger age. The number of players, rinks and hockey teams in Austria is quite large and they should be a much better hockey side than they are right now.
My guess is that the development system itself is fine. Quality players have come out of it. I doubt they're training kids all that differently than say, Canada. I think it's just an issue of a lack of popularity so the overall player pool is not that high, and thus the number of high-end players are few and far between just due to simple probability and statistics. Obviously, it goes without saying, but tons of very mediocre future minor pros are developed in Canada and USA.
 

Namejs

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Ask yourself how hockey ranks among other sports in Austria. Yes, the climatic conditions in the part of Austria where there are mountains will be better than, for example, in Vienna. However, sports such as ski jumping or downhill skiing will still be popular in Austria. Maybe Austria would need its own Draisaitl or Grubauer. Marco Rossi or Marco Kasper are too few to make hockey more popular.

The problem with the coaches is one of the many reasons why their hockey cannot take a faster step forward. They have Salzburg or Vienna, but these clubs prefer ready-made players, they have no patience with youngsters. And it's also a country with good infrastructure, you can drive all over Austria in a few hours, so you can sleep in your own bed every night. They also do not have a chance to build a stronger junior league, and Austrian players are not interesting enough for Finnish or Swedish clubs, so they are left with options such as Switzerland or Germany, or the USA/Canada. And it's not at all certain that playing overseas will help them become better players.

It could be better with Austria at the WJC sometime in 2025 or 2026, they should have more individual quality and not have to go 11-0 like they do now. That is, if they are in the elite division at that time.
What you're saying does not make a lot of sense.

Austria has a large amount of players. They have an interest in hockey. Popularity is not an issue.

Playing overseas will make them better players, that is completely obvious. You can not develop major pro or NHL players in Austria. That's the entire point.

It's the same thing with France, the UK, Poland. The kids are not eager to go abroad, because there are half decent options at home and they don't realize that they're stunting their own development.

Another factor, obviously, is the fact that parents have to be supportive of their kids and that includes time and money. So if there is no hockey culture and expertise (e.g., 'it's not certain that there are much better places for player development abroad'), it's just a self-repeating cycle and a trap you can not get out of.

And this is the main reason why, for example, Latvia has been a tier above Austria for so long despite having fewer rinks, fewer players and less resources in general.
 
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Namejs

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My guess is that the development system itself is fine. Quality players have come out of it. I doubt they're training kids all that differently than say, Canada. I think it's just an issue of a lack of popularity so the overall player pool is not that high, and thus the number of high-end players are few and far between just due to simple probability and statistics. Obviously, it goes without saying, but tons of very mediocre future minor pros are developed in Canada and USA.
You are completely incorrect.

Look up the IIHF player survey before using terms like probability and statistics. Austria has about 1/3 more junior players than Latvia, and that has been the case since forever.

Their system is inefficient due to the reasons listed above.
 

BigBadBoar

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What you're saying does not make a lot of sense.

Austria has a large amount of players. They have an interest in hockey. Popularity is not an issue.

Playing overseas will make them better players, that is completely obvious. You can not develop major pro or NHL players in Austria. That's the entire point.

It's the same thing with France, the UK, Poland. The kids are not eager to go abroad, because there are half decent options at home and they don't realize that they're stunting their own development.

Another factor, obviously, is the fact that parents have to be supportive of their kids and that includes time and money. So if there is no hockey culture and expertise (e.g., 'it's not certain that there are much better places for player development abroad'), it's just a self-repeating cycle and a trap you can not get out of.

And this is the main reason why, for example, Latvia has been a tier above Austria for so long despite having fewer rinks, fewer players and less resources in general.

Many people have been saying Latvia had been benefiting from the KHL/MHL and the involvement of their young players in the Russian system, and now dark times are coming for Latvian hockey. I don't agree, and actually think we will see more very good Latvian prospects in the near future than we were seeing in the KHL/MHL era. What do You think?
 
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Namejs

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Many people have been saying Latvia had been benefiting from the KHL/MHL and the involvement of their young players in the Russian system, and now dark times are coming for Latvian hockey. I don't agree, and actually think we will see more very good Latvian prospects in the near future than we were seeing in the KHL/MHL era. What do You think?
We're getting offtopic, but I agree with you entirely. The MHL/KHL was more like a benign growth in the body of Latvian hockey than anything else.

Dinamo lasted an entire generation. 12-13 years. How many national team players they developed? I can only name one 3rd pairing D, which is ridiculous.

Obviously, more have gone through their ranks, but what Dinamo did is they took the best kids from other domestic programmes and stuck them in a bus that went round and round some random Russian shitholes. We did not gain anything from that.
 
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HungryFrank

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Playing against men per se isn't bad, but it has to be done Salzburg way. Lot of teams on various levels, good coaches, a gradual climb. Unfortunately there mostly Germans are playing.

Other teams either have weak Austrian junior leagues which are made for masses or are thrown in Alps directly from U18 with no alternative to play. If a team has only Austrians they mostly lose, if they bring foreigners they are more competitive, but then Austrians play minor role.

As mentioned, bad programme, unadequate coaching, lack of a plan from federation's point and unambitious teams make for a bad system. Add a culture where you make enough money in the sport to have a casual life without much stress until you find something long term, make for a not so good team.
 

Czechboy

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Playing against men per se isn't bad, but it has to be done Salzburg way. Lot of teams on various levels, good coaches, a gradual climb. Unfortunately there mostly Germans are playing.

Other teams either have weak Austrian junior leagues which are made for masses or are thrown in Alps directly from U18 with no alternative to play. If a team has only Austrians they mostly lose, if they bring foreigners they are more competitive, but then Austrians play minor role.

As mentioned, bad programme, unadequate coaching, lack of a plan from federation's point and unambitious teams make for a bad system. Add a culture where you make enough money in the sport to have a casual life without much stress until you find something long term, make for a not so good team.
Lots of Czechs train in the Alps to ski.. surprised more Austrians aren't coming next door to Czech leagues.... eg. Vienna is a 50 minute drive from Brno and Brno is a great junoir developmental program for Czech standards.. Svozil, Kaut, Sale
 

BigBadBoar

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Lots of Czechs train in the Alps to ski.. surprised more Austrians aren't coming next door to Czech leagues.... eg. Vienna is a 50 minute drive from Brno and Brno is a great junoir developmental program for Czech standards.. Svozil, Kaut, Sale

Martin Nečas as well. Brno currently has probably the best junior developlmental program in Czechia. I agree it could be an opportunity for some young Austrian players. It is close to the border, good train connection, a kid from Vienna wouldn't even need to live in Brno, the train makes it in less than an hour and a half.
 

Czechboy

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Martin Nečas as well. Brno currently has probably the best junior developlmental program in Czechia. I agree it could be an opportunity for some young Austrian players. It is close to the border, good train connection, a kid from Vienna wouldn't even need to live in Brno, the train makes it in less than an hour and a half.
It's so nice because Brno had Robert Kron and then we didnt' produce anything for 2 decades.. it was Kladno (which is great). Brno is doing a good job up till 16 or 17. A very good job.
 
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BigBadBoar

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It's so nice because Brno had Robert Kron and then we didnt' produce anything for 2 decades.. it was Kladno (which is great). Brno is doing a good job up till 16 or 17. A very good job.

I believe it is connected to the overall growth of hockey in Brno. I moved to Brno in 2010, the city was living with hockey because Kometa was playing Extraliga against, after decades of misery. It took some 5-7 years until certain things got stabilized, but then they started producing really good young players, with Nečas obviously being the brighest star so far.

The fun fact is that I moved from Brno to another traditional hockey city of Pardubice in 2020 and soon Pardubice begun to be good again too. I should probably move to Kladno or Litvínov next time. :DD
 

Czechboy

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I believe it is connected to the overall growth of hockey in Brno. I moved to Brno in 2010, the city was living with hockey because Kometa was playing Extraliga against, after decades of misery. It took some 5-7 years until certain things got stabilized, but then they started producing really good young players, with Nečas obviously being the brighest star so far.

The fun fact is that I moved from Brno to another traditional hockey city of Pardubice in 2020 and soon Pardubice begun to be good again too. I should probably move to Kladno or Litvínov next time. :DD
Hemsky or Nedved! Tough call. I think Pardubice has been producing some good young guys too! I love Brno.. fav city in Cesko. I may be biased though!
 

BigBadBoar

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Hemsky or Nedved! Tough call. I think Pardubice has been producing some good young guys too! I love Brno.. fav city in Cesko. I may be biased though!

Brno is cool, I was living there for 10 years, basically my university years including the PhD. Then I moved away because I found a good job opportunity in Pardubice. But I still like coming to Brno for a weekend trip or so, have some friends there, love the atmosphere of the city. The sad part is that my workplace in Pardubice is 10-15 mins of walk from the arena, but I don't have many opportunities to attend the games.
 

Czechboy

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Brno is cool, I was living there for 10 years, basically my university years including the PhD. Then I moved away because I found a good job opportunity in Pardubice. But I still like coming to Brno for a weekend trip or so, have some friends there, love the atmosphere of the city. The sad part is that my workplace in Pardubice is 10-15 mins of walk from the arena, but I don't have many opportunities to attend the games.
Pegas is my fav microbrewerey anywhere! I went there in the 90s and was there in 2018 and nothing had changed. The 'black and tan' is a national treasure IMO.lol

PhD... I always the knew the Czech posters were smart!
 
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BigBadBoar

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Pegas is my fav microbrewerey anywhere! I went there in the 90s and was there in 2018 and nothing had changed. The 'black and tan' is a national treasure IMO.lol

PhD... I always the knew the Czech posters were smart!

We are clearly off topic but Pegas is cool. :DD They even have yet another pub near Konečného Náměstí.
 
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Elias40

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What you're saying does not make a lot of sense.

Austria has a large amount of players. They have an interest in hockey. Popularity is not an issue.

Playing overseas will make them better players, that is completely obvious. You can not develop major pro or NHL players in Austria. That's the entire point.

It's the same thing with France, the UK, Poland. The kids are not eager to go abroad, because there are half decent options at home and they don't realize that they're stunting their own development.

Another factor, obviously, is the fact that parents have to be supportive of their kids and that includes time and money. So if there is no hockey culture and expertise (e.g., 'it's not certain that there are much better places for player development abroad'), it's just a self-repeating cycle and a trap you can not get out of.

And this is the main reason why, for example, Latvia has been a tier above Austria for so long despite having fewer rinks, fewer players and less resources in general.
So with Austria, it will never be about what kind of player base they have. And I wouldn't say that there are more Austrian children who want to be like Rossi, more like Hayboeck or Kriechmayr. In addition, it is apparently a bit easier to make a living as a skier than as a hockey player in Austria.

If I am to believe the IIHF, there are 3339 players under the age of 20 in Austria, 2392 in Latvia, for example in Denmark it is 1918 or in Norway 6210 and in such Italy it is 3550. The only thing they have an advantage in is the stadiums, here Austria has a total of 122 of stadiums, Denmark 27, Norway 58, Latvia 27 and Italy 70. But the position of hockey in Austria and Latvia is different, on a solid level Austria has more sports than Latvia, it is also a richer country. But that's not the point when we're talking about ice hockey.

Austrian hockey is certainly on the rise, so it is not unrealistic in the 4-5 year horizon for them to have at least one player in the draft every year from 2025. Of course, it will only be a few individuals and not a system production, which given their size and interest in hockey is good enough. And as long as Canadians, Americans or Swedes play in their league, young players from Austria will play in the Alpine League. In addition, they will be relatively well paid for playing hockey, the same problem is for example in Switzerland.

This is where the Austrian federation should intervene, develop some meaningful concept, or try to hire foreign youth coaches. Just take the necessary steps so that Austria has some promising prospects and raise even more interest in hockey in the country.


Well, it is quite debatable that the OHL, WHL or QMJHL made a significantly better player out of a young player. There are cases when this is the case, but there are also cases when a player returns to the home country from where he left and is not a significantly better player than when he left. It may be so, and playing in Canada will make it easier for him to transition to the seniors, but can you say that a large percentage of players can handle this step? Sometimes it's just better to stay home, try to play more minutes between men and gradually move forward than to run to Canada at all costs. For countries like Austria or Denmark, it cannot be said unequivocally that leaving is a clear win. I clearly don't see it that way in smaller countries.

In the case of Austria, how many players are we talking about? This is not like, for example, the Czech Republic, where I think they have forty of the best juniors in Canada, the USA, Sweden and Finland, and the rest play in the Czech junior competition. If you only have three or four players with elite talent, you're looking for a way for them to be able to play man-to-man. And if they get that chance in Salzburg, Graz or Vienna, it doesn't matter. Mannheim gave Stützle a chance and it worked out for them, he didn't have to go to Canada.

If you have three of the best young Latvian players in your year, do you send them all to Canada or just the ones who want it?
 

WarriorofTime

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You are completely incorrect.

Look up the IIHF player survey before using terms like probability and statistics. Austria has about 1/3 more junior players than Latvia, and that has been the case since forever.

Their system is inefficient due to the reasons listed above.
I'm confused, is Latvia some big junior hockey superpower now? What does one bad hockey nation's player pool have to do with another? In Austria, all the best athletes are not playing ice hockey. Junior numbers hardly tell the full picture. If you have a passionate nation of hockey players competing for a few spots, that may be better than in places where there a bunch of crappy junior teams to join to keep numbers up once players hit the Junior level.

Perhaps instead of wagging your finger accusing a nation of not knowing how to develop ice hockey players (it's pretty straightforward, there is not rocket science involved... skate, shoot, pass, stickhandle.. these drills are run anywhere there is ice hockey), you (like me) should actually look through rosters of Austrian junior teams at the U-20 and U-18 on a rolling and cumulative basis and you'll see plenty of players that have in fact spent time in North America will end up on these rosters from time to time, and more often than not, they are just bad players playing in bad NA leagues. They don't just get magic North American junior hockey dust and become good ones.
 
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Namejs

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I'm confused, is Latvia some big junior hockey superpower now? What does one bad hockey nation's player pool have to do with another? In Austria, all the best athletes are not playing ice hockey. Junior numbers hardly tell the full picture. If you have a passionate nation of hockey players competing for a few spots, that may be better than in places where there a bunch of crappy junior teams to join to keep numbers up once players hit the Junior level.

Perhaps instead of wagging your finger accusing a nation of not knowing how to develop ice hockey players (it's pretty straightforward, there is not rocket science involved... skate, shoot, pass, stickhandle.. these drills are run anywhere there is ice hockey), you (like me) should actually look through rosters of Austrian junior teams at the U-20 and U-18 on a rolling and cumulative basis and you'll see plenty of players that have in fact spent time in North America will end up on these rosters from time to time, and more often than not, they are just bad players playing in bad NA leagues. They don't just get magic North American junior hockey dust and become good ones.
I realize that you're confused. And you're still not getting the very basic point I'm trying to get across.

Latvia is one of the most efficient nations in hockey at developing talent, correct. The last time I analyzed it, we were 4th or 5th in the world. We have very few players, but around 200 of them play pro hockey.

Note that we're not talking about junior leagues, but about countries at large. The Latvian approach is generally to use other junior leagues and other countries for player development after the age of 14/15 or even earlier than that. This comes at a cost as other nations can scoop up these players, especially the most talented ones. There's 1 or 2 Latvian-born players on the German team in the WJC, for example.

The player pool is the basis for making any assessments. If you have a pool of 15,000 players like Japan, yet you struggle to produce a single NHL player in 20 years, your approach sucks. If you have a pool of 2,500 players, yet you have 5 players in the NHL constantly, you're doing good.

Austria is simply not good at developing talent. And it is clear as day that this will not change because of the system they have in place. And that system maximizes the level of club teams playing in EBEL. They are two tiers ahead of the Latvian domestic league, which is at the level of AlpsHL or the Austrian 2div. But their national team is not going to reach our level over the next 5-7 years guaranteed.

You also don't seem to realize that individual practice sessions do not create elite talent. You have to face good enough opposition to continue progressing, otherwise you're able to score 3 points a game while being just good. And then you get stuck in development. You have to be on your toes, you have to hustle and improve every facet of your game every single year. Playing in Austria (or Latvia!) does not facilitate that after a certain age. If you're 13, you can always play against 2 or 3 years older kids, but eventually you're going to hit a ceiling and you will have to move abroad or remain mediocre.
 

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