GDT: GDT #9 New York Islanders @ Washington Capitals | November 2nd | 7 PM | F/3-0 W

[MJF]

Not winning the cup is being used as a cudgel against anyone who doesn't agree with a full on rebuild. Whether the Islanders lose in the first round, the ECF, or in game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals that "argument" can be used to justify the position. I think it's incredibly broad and, quite frankly, silly.

This is your feeling and apparently ONLY YOUR feeling. I only started mentioning our SCF futility this summer when I read a list of teams in the 4 major sports and their time between visits to the final round. In the NHL we are 2nd longest. Only the Maple Leafs are suffering a longer drought.

I started pushing for a rebuild 2 years ago. Not because of any playoff shortcomings, but because the makeups of our roster isn't balanced right, along with my belief that who would be our most productive players were already hitting the other side of 30 years old and will have contracts that are expiring in their early-mid 30s. Those are not players I would want to resign at that point, and with a weak prospect pool plus no success signing high end UFAs, trading the likes of a Nelson or Barzal back then could have solved so many of our problems. Unfortunately, that path closed to us for good when Lou traded for Horvat.

Everything else you put out in your post is based on your own take on what is acceptable as far as playoff performance. If we don't win X number of rounds, tear it down. I base my call for a rebuild based on roster makeup, the direction of the style of play in the league and our ability to compete against the teams in our own conference. I also based it on our ability to replace players as they age out. In a hard cap league a team needs a good stream of home grown players. We haven't hit on players that can score can't attract them on the open market and only this year do we finally have a 1st round pick.

All the extenuating factors that made us an undesirable destination are gone. The Islanders aren't the side show they used to be. Yet when I look at this team today, just as I did 3 years ago, I don't see a team that is built to compete in this league and doesn't have adequate replacements in the system. In fact the Capitals game just reaffirmed to me that if we make the playoffs it will be because our goaltending dragged us there, not because of we defend well or can roll 4 lines with balanced scoring.

 

[Glorydays22]

End of the year. Just in time for the draft party that you so long for.



Barzal just signed an 8 yr extension...now he wants out?

Let's hope it's a high draft pick then.

As far as Barzal, if you read the comments Brazal made recently about when Lambert replace him for Wally for him on the 1st line in the Detroit game (Eyes on Isles). You can tell he's not happy about things. I didn't say Brazal stated he wants out. But I think you can see the frustration. That this could boil over soon. To be fair, I do think he's moping a bit now because of the lack of success he's having.

Just a thought here. Do you think that Lou and Lambert when they were talking extension with Brazal sold him on the idea Lambert would come in and loosen up the defensive style to fit Brazal but now Lambert has gone back to it. And I understand why, because we don't have the talent to open it up. You don't think he's a little pissed? Not saying he's right or wrong but this style will never suit Brazal. You will never get the most out of him and for that, maybe all you guys are right about moving him.

Its sad because he has a world of talent and we are just using it.

 

[PK Cronin]

This is your feeling and apparently ONLY YOUR feeling. I only started mentioning our SCF futility this summer when I read a list of teams in the 4 major sports and their time between visits to the final round. In the NHL we are 2nd longest. Only the Maple Leafs are suffering a longer drought.

I started pushing for a rebuild 2 years ago. Not because of any playoff shortcomings, but because the makeups of our roster isn't balanced right, along with my belief that who would be our most productive players were already hitting the other side of 30 years old and will have contracts that are expiring in their early-mid 30s. Those are not players I would want to resign at that point, and with a weak prospect pool plus no success signing high end UFAs, trading the likes of a Nelson or Barzal back then could have solved so many of our problems. Unfortunately, that path closed to us for good when Lou traded for Horvat.

Everything else you put out in your post is based on your own take on what is acceptable as far as playoff performance. If we don't win X number of rounds, tear it down. I base my call for a rebuild based on roster makeup, the direction of the style of play in the league and our ability to compete against the teams in our own conference. I also based it on our ability to replace players as they age out. In a hard cap league a team needs a good stream of home grown players. We haven't hit on players that can score can't attract them on the open market and only this year do we finally have a 1st round pick.

All the extenuating factors that made us an undesirable destination are gone. The Islanders aren't the side show they used to be. Yet when I look at this team today, just as I did 3 years ago, I don't see a team that is built to compete in this league and doesn't have adequate replacements in the system. In fact the Capitals game just reaffirmed to me that if we make the playoffs it will be because our goaltending dragged us there, not because of we defend well or can roll 4 lines with balanced scoring.

Nothing you're saying is refuting the silliness of the argument I was talking about though. You're providing reasons for your belief in a more detailed manner rather than resorting to the "they won't win, you'll see!" type of argument that I find nonsensical. That's my whole point.

 

[MJF]

Nothing you're saying is refuting the silliness of the argument I was talking about though. You're providing reasons for your belief in a more detailed manner rather than resorting to the "they won't win, you'll see!" type of argument that I find nonsensical. That's my whole point.

I can only speak for myself. I’m not the defender of the cause for anyone else. I don’t think this roster can win, I don’t see the GM being able to adequately replace the players who will age out, and I don’t want to get caught in a cycle of throwing good money after bad to fix the roster issues by extending guys in their mid-30s for too long. The Islanders hit a crossroads after 2021 when we lost to Tampa for the 2nd time. Lou needed to make some changes to the roster to get the team over the goal line, he wasn’t able to do it, the team missed the playoffs in 2022. That was the time to start breaking in down.

 

[BelovedIsles]

^I agree that Barzal’s body language does not look good. On the ice, on the bench, and in greeting Varly after the win; he looks apathetic and disgruntled. For me, he’s not producing, he’s expected to produce, he’s paid a pretty penny to produce. He is playing like a passenger; I’m starting to believe that is what he is. I would not hesitate to move him for a similar-aged goalscorer.

Along with my concerns about Barzal are concerns about the overall team infrastructure. Most of the roster is on the decline. Nelson isn’t too far behind, Pelech is now oft injured and likely not far behind. Major changes have to be made this offseason and beyond, as this group ages out.

As for the current record. Of course I’m happy they are 5-2-2. With that said, it’s a small sample size and they haven’t looked all that good in most of the games to inspire confidence. I want nothing more than to see this team earn a playoff spot and win a few rounds; I am not convinced they have the talent or coaching to do so. They generally work hard, are hard to play against, and make you fight for ice; that only takes a team so far.

 

[LeapOnOver]

The Isles PK is at 18% and WAS PP is at 12%. So they didn't need to be 100% sure to make it a worthwhile challenge.

Any PP with Ovechkin on it tells me to not give a damn about current percentages, lol.

 

[Rehabguy]

^I agree that Barzal’s body language does not look good. On the ice, on the bench, and in greeting Varly after the win; he looks apathetic and disgruntled. For me, he’s not producing, he’s expected to produce, he’s paid a pretty penny to produce. He is playing like a passenger; I’m starting to believe that is what he is. I would not hesitate to move him for a similar-aged goalscorer.

Along with my concerns about Barzal are concerns about the overall team infrastructure. Most of the roster is on the decline. Nelson isn’t too far behind, Pelech is now oft injured and likely not far behind. Major changes have to be made this offseason and beyond, as this group ages out.

As for the current record. Of course I’m happy they are 5-2-2. With that said, it’s a small sample size and they haven’t looked all that good in most of the games to inspire confidence. I want nothing more than to see this team earn a playoff spot and win a few rounds; I am not convinced they have the talent or coaching to do so. They generally work hard, are hard to play against, and make you fight for ice; that only takes a team so far.

There’s no avoiding a lengthy rebuild for this squad in the not so distant future no matter what but to not give this core group of players one or two more seasons (including this one) to see if they can win it all wouldn’t make sense. This is this franchise best shot to win the Cup at anytime in the foreseeable future. With proper coaching and game plan I see no reason why this team could not win it all given its recent success in the past 3 years. The recent additions including the development of some of our prospects gives me hope that some of the weaknesses this team showed including size and speed have been adequately addressed. Horvat, Engvall, Fasching we’re good additions to this club last year bringing much needed size and speed to the lineup.

The difference will be coaching and the final system of play and style of play this club decides upon. I do believe the proper utilization of what Barzal brings to the table can make or break this team. Unlike a few here I disagree that Barzal is not as good as he was advertised to be but the marriage between Barzal’s preferred and productive style of play and this conservative system of play is the worse combination possible. I don’t blame Barzal for his current lack of production. He’s playing winger in a system that frowns upon the style of play he prefers to play. No one should be arguing against what they saw his Calder season. Sure like any rookie offensive minded player he had the occasional defensive lapse and he was still learning what he could get away with but there’s no denying that he was more productive when he was allowed to do what he did best rather than playing wing man to a player not particularly known for his play making abilities in Horvat.

Barzal needs to be centering a line. He needs to be in the center position to take advantage of his natural gifts. He’s been a dutiful soldier but this nonsense has to stop with him playing on the wing. Barzal’s not as productive as before. Well duh! Try switching Trottier to the wing and Bossy to center all those years and that would have been a ridiculous situation as well. I don’t understand why they don’t just swap Barzal and Horvat’s positions and give it a try. When Barzal was asked what the biggest adjustment he had to make moving from his natural center position for 15 years to all of a sudden winger he said “I would say the biggest thing is as centerman is crossing over a little more, whereas wingers, there's a little more stop and start, kind of on your side of the ice a little bit more. So I think that was the one thing get used to. I wasn't in all areas of the ice as much as I was at center. So there's definitely a little bit of a mentality shift”.

For someone who produced primarily through his skating all over the offensive zone restricting him more or less to one side of the rink is foolish. It restricts his play making ability and ability to utilize his greatest asset, his skating. It really clips his wings so of course he looks and is less productive. The Isles should take advantage of Horvats quick release by playing him at the wing and have him plant himself in front of the net or join the rush while Barzy is allowed to do his razzle dazzle in the offensive zone looking to feed Horvat for a one timer. At the center position he will be able to circle from either side of the ice and do what he does best- make plays and find the open man. Right now I think they got their positions backwards. It’s always been playmakers at center and shooters at the wing. Barzal is not a natural shooter and Horvat is not a natural playmaker. Can you imagine Al Arbour putting Lafontaine at the wing position?

The current arrangement is a natural result of Lambert preferring defense over offense. Horvat is stronger defensively and a better face off specialist but to me that is too much of a trade off. These players were brought onboard to put pucks in back of the net not to worry primarily about defense. They need to be scoring goals to be a real threat on the ice and the current arrangement is backwards. Barzal IS playing like a passenger because that’s the position he was put in. He should be the engine driving that line.

 

[islesfan186]

So interesting comment on Washington being slow, I purposely focused Ovechkin last night in his pursuit of Gretzky's goal scoring record. And what I saw was a man who's play is definitely being impacted by Father time. I saw a player that had no interest in returning to the play in the D-zone and lacked in his ability to throw his signature crushing hit at least once a game. His pursuit of the puck in the offensive zone also seemed to be missing some spark. Maybe he was having an off night or maybe all those big hits he's thrown all these years are taking a toll. But I'm not sure as all the analyst are saying that it's a "matter of when and not if" the record will be broken. That being said I'm sure in his next game he throws a massive hit and scores a natural hat trick.

I too, noticed that age seems to have finally caught up to OV. He did not same as dangerous as in many past seasons. Granted it’s still fairly early in the season. I thought for sure Ovechkin had the goal scoring record in the bag, but if this is a sign of things to come that he is finally on the decline…he may come up just short. I really hope he doesn’t, because to see someone actually break the goal scoring record would be really awesome

 

[CupHolders]

If one is looking to rebuild… then it’s not during the first month of a season that a team is 5-2-2. Or, pretty much any record at the time for that matter. So please spare these rebuild NOW sentiments after every game.

In a CAP league, the earliest ANY rebuild can start is at a trade deadline with UFA’s. Followed by the offseason with upcoming UFA’s (Nelson, Palmieri), players coming off of NMCs (Lee) or before they start their NTCs (Barzal).

I don’t actually expect the Isles to try a rebuild, but I don’t get why some posters here are flummoxed that they are NOT trying to rebuild right this moment.

 

[steveat]

wow..pens look bad.

No. That Kadri contract ends when he's 39 and will be a killer.

Now, Barzal, Wally and Bolduc for Hanafin and Lindholm or Mangiapane?

Agreed, this is another Lee contract in the making.

 

[BrockLobster]

Let's hope it's a high draft pick then.

As far as Barzal, if you read the comments Brazal made recently about when Lambert replace him for Wally for him on the 1st line in the Detroit game (Eyes on Isles). You can tell he's not happy about things. I didn't say Brazal stated he wants out. But I think you can see the frustration. That this could boil over soon. To be fair, I do think he's moping a bit now because of the lack of success he's having.

Just a thought here. Do you think that Lou and Lambert when they were talking extension with Brazal sold him on the idea Lambert would come in and loosen up the defensive style to fit Brazal but now Lambert has gone back to it. And I understand why, because we don't have the talent to open it up. You don't think he's a little pissed? Not saying he's right or wrong but this style will never suit Brazal. You will never get the most out of him and for that, maybe all you guys are right about moving him.

Its sad because he has a world of talent and we are just using it.

Its barzals fault that hes been terrible. Not lamberts fault.

 

[CupHolders]

Q: Would you trade Barzal, Wally, and whatever to get Hanifin (Lou resigns him) and Kadri?

Swapping out Barzal for Kadri is mostly lateral… but I won’t nitpick rating Kadri higher. Hanifin is on par with Pulock. Both Calgary players would be helpful.

With that said, and your clear opinion on Barzal acknowledged; let’s just set aside rhetoric about “unlocking” Barzal and consider…

He was signed to the contract that he has and the comments by Lou corroborate that the organizational opinion is that:

They need a highly dynamic player to succeed

They believe he is their best opportunity at potentially having one

Again, you and everyone can disagree that Barzal will ever or was ever a possibility to become such a player.

But moving on from him AND NOT returning an actual dynamic player (who meets the expectations placed on Barzal) OR assets to acquire said player…

It leaves the Isles better (maybe), but likely no closer to a championship anyway. But more concerning is that Kadri will likely be a greater anchor at some point.

Moving Barzal for assets to then flip for a similarly aged player (with more consistent production) who also doesn’t diminish the team speed… sure why not. This in my opinion would be an example of a retool.

I agree with one of your posts on this board about keeping tabs on Peterson in Vancouver. Also think Nylander maybe a much smaller scale option. Every year post playoffs teams look to move in different directions. Maybe something there?

But failing at acquiring higher-end dynamic talent in place of Barzal… then maybe the Isles should wind down into a rebuild.

Its barzals fault that hes been terrible. Not lamberts fault.

Let’s keep perspective…

Neither has been terrible. Neither has been bad. But Barzal as the lesser of the two? That’s a reasonable take, and I agree.

 

[Glorydays22]

Its barzals fault that hes been terrible. Not lamberts fault.

I did not say Brazal doesn't share the blame for his play. He regardless of style and what maybe they told him/ if the told him that. He signed the contract and he needs to play better. I'm just saying, I don't think we will ever see his max talent in this system.

 

[Throttle]

Swapping out Barzal for Kadri is mostly lateral… but I won’t nitpick rating Kadri higher. Hanifin is on par with Pulock. Both Calgary players would be helpful.

With that said, and your clear opinion on Barzal acknowledged; let’s just set aside rhetoric about “unlocking” Barzal and consider…

He was signed to the contract that he has and the comments by Lou corroborate that the organizational opinion is that:

They need a highly dynamic player to succeed

They believe he is their best opportunity at potentially having one

Again, you and everyone can disagree that Barzal will ever or was ever a possibility to become such a player.

But moving on from him AND NOT returning an actual dynamic player (who meets the expectations placed on Barzal) OR assets to acquire said player…

It leaves the Isles better (maybe), but likely no closer to a championship anyway. But more concerning is that Kadri will likely be a greater anchor at some point.

Moving Barzal for assets to then flip for a similarly aged player (with more consistent production) who also doesn’t diminish the team speed… sure why not. This in my opinion would be an example of a retool.

I agree with one of your posts on this board about keeping tabs on Peterson in Vancouver. Also think Nylander maybe a much smaller scale option. Every year post playoffs teams look to move in different directions. Maybe something there?

But failing at acquiring higher-end dynamic talent in place of Barzal… then maybe the Isles should wind down into a rebuild.


Let’s keep perspective…

Neither has been terrible. Neither has been bad. But Barzal as the lesser of the two? That’s a reasonable take, and I agree.

On its face, Barzal has proven more of what he can’t do vs what he can do. He has absolutely failed to live up to what was expected of him from that contract.

What I am proposing is the Isles have a window while he has no trade protection this season, to get out from underneath it before you are 100% stuck with it. No more hopes and dreams, you are paying $9.1M for a player that does not perform remotely close to that level.

Now, ideally, best case is someone like a Petterssen wants out, Barzal is the consolation prize in return.

Next level, is something like a lateral move with some goods and bads on it. Like the Kadri/Hanfin.

The isles are only getting a ‘dynamic’ player in return in the ideal scenario, which is a long shot. Otherwise, it’s a lateral move.

And no, this team does not have to rebuild because they trade mat ‘I can skate’ Barzal. This team made the playoffs without him. He also sucked when the team had Covid and didn’t raise his game at that time either. If anything, the Horvat acquisition is giving the isles more of a return than trying to solve the Barzal problem.

My guess is Lou has seen enough and looks to move on before he gets stuck with him.

And I agree with you that his body language and performance is reminiscent of the second half of the Covid season when, even under Trotz, he kinda checked out. Not a guy to pay $9.1M.

 

[CupHolders]

On its face, Barzal has proven more of what he can’t do vs what he can do. He has absolutely failed to live up to what was expected of him from that contract.

What I am proposing is the Isles have a window while he has no trade protection this season, to get out from underneath it before you are 100% stuck with it. No more hopes and dreams, you are paying $9.1M for a player that does not perform remotely close to that level.

Now, ideally, best case is someone like a Petterssen wants out, Barzal is the consolation prize in return.

Next level, is something like a lateral move with some goods and bads on it. Like the Kadri/Hanfin.

The isles are only getting a ‘dynamic’ player in return in the ideal scenario, which is a long shot. Otherwise, it’s a lateral move.

And no, this team does not have to rebuild because they trade mat ‘I can skate’ Barzal. This team made the playoffs without him. He also sucked when the team had Covid and didn’t raise his game at that time either. If anything, the Horvat acquisition is giving the isles more of a return than trying to solve the Barzal problem.

My guess is Lou has seen enough and looks to move on before he gets stuck with him.

And I agree with you that his body language and performance is reminiscent of the second half of the Covid season when, even under Trotz, he kinda checked out. Not a guy to pay $9.1M.

You have me confused with someone else regarding Barzal’s body language comment from the last game. I fell asleep and missed most of the Washington game. So I’m not aware of how bad he supposedly was for that game.

Also you missed my point. I was not getting into any kind of discussion about Barzal’s actual overall play. But stating what the Isles expectations (met or unmet) were.

Lou signed Barzal to that deal and made the comments that he made because he felt the Isles need a particular kind of player to win. Regardless of what Barzal has done or failed to do, doesn’t change the need for the kind of player that Lou is expecting on that deal.

I’m aware that your premise is to trade Barzal before his NTC activates. I wasn’t even countering it. I was

I think acquiring Kadri makes the Isles marginally better at best (debatable). But likely puts them in a worse cap situation. @doublechili suggestion of Lindholm would make better sense as would yours of a contract situation like Petterrson.

Otherwise, find ways to just clear space while getting picks and take a shot at an UFA.

If you’re going to load this roster up with nothing better than safe solid players like Horvat, Nelson and Kadri then you are still likely to fall short anyway. St. Louis Blues may be the only recent model to cite as an example of the team you’re proposing. And the Isles forward talent would still be lesser than theirs.

Basically to sum it up… You want to trade Barzal? Sure have had it. But for Kadri? No.

I honestly would prefer not getting anything back and having the monies for someone else. And I like Kadri as a player.

 

[BelovedIsles]

There’s no avoiding a lengthy rebuild for this squad in the not so distant future no matter what but to not give this core group of players one or two more seasons (including this one) to see if they can win it all wouldn’t make sense. This is this franchise best shot to win the Cup at anytime in the foreseeable future. With proper coaching and game plan I see no reason why this team could not win it all given its recent success in the past 3 years. The recent additions including the development of some of our prospects gives me hope that some of the weaknesses this team showed including size and speed have been adequately addressed. Horvat, Engvall, Fasching we’re good additions to this club last year bringing much needed size and speed to the lineup.

The difference will be coaching and the final system of play and style of play this club decides upon. I do believe the proper utilization of what Barzal brings to the table can make or break this team. Unlike a few here I disagree that Barzal is not as good as he was advertised to be but the marriage between Barzal’s preferred and productive style of play and this conservative system of play is the worse combination possible. I don’t blame Barzal for his current lack of production. He’s playing winger in a system that frowns upon the style of play he prefers to play. No one should be arguing against what they saw his Calder season. Sure like any rookie offensive minded player he had the occasional defensive lapse and he was still learning what he could get away with but there’s no denying that he was more productive when he was allowed to do what he did best rather than playing wing man to a player not particularly known for his play making abilities in Horvat.

Barzal needs to be centering a line. He needs to be in the center position to take advantage of his natural gifts. He’s been a dutiful soldier but this nonsense has to stop with him playing on the wing. Barzal’s not as productive as before. Well duh! Try switching Trottier to the wing and Bossy to center all those years and that would have been a ridiculous situation as well. I don’t understand why they don’t just swap Barzal and Horvat’s positions and give it a try. When Barzal was asked what the biggest adjustment he had to make moving from his natural center position for 15 years to all of a sudden winger he said “I would say the biggest thing is as centerman is crossing over a little more, whereas wingers, there's a little more stop and start, kind of on your side of the ice a little bit more. So I think that was the one thing get used to. I wasn't in all areas of the ice as much as I was at center. So there's definitely a little bit of a mentality shift”.

For someone who produced primarily through his skating all over the offensive zone restricting him more or less to one side of the rink is foolish. It restricts his play making ability and ability to utilize his greatest asset, his skating. It really clips his wings so of course he looks and is less productive. The Isles should take advantage of Horvats quick release by playing him at the wing and have him plant himself in front of the net or join the rush while Barzy is allowed to do his razzle dazzle in the offensive zone looking to feed Horvat for a one timer. At the center position he will be able to circle from either side of the ice and do what he does best- make plays and find the open man. Right now I think they got their positions backwards. It’s always been playmakers at center and shooters at the wing. Barzal is not a natural shooter and Horvat is not a natural playmaker. Can you imagine Al Arbour putting Lafontaine at the wing position?

The current arrangement is a natural result of Lambert preferring defense over offense. Horvat is stronger defensively and a better face off specialist but to me that is too much of a trade off. These players were brought onboard to put pucks in back of the net not to worry primarily about defense. They need to be scoring goals to be a real threat on the ice and the current arrangement is backwards. Barzal IS playing like a passenger because that’s the position he was put in. He should be the engine driving that line.

So Horvat takes the draws, then they automatically shift positions? Think it may get cumbersome and convoluted. You put Barzal in for the draws, you then jeopardize possession (a weakness of Barzal, strength of Horvat).