GDT: GDT #8 Detroit Red Wings vs New York Islanders | October 30th | 7:30 PM | F/4-3 OTL

[SI90]

I mean if you've egregiously giving up the puck I'd say you're the reason you're not getting any breaks.

I meant us!!

 

[WangMustGo]

No question, one can't skate and the other just doesn't fit.

What a disappointment Wahlstrom has become. The kid had a lot of potential, but just couldnt put it together. Im ready to put Fasching back in the lineup. Hopefully Parise decides to give it one more go.

 

[PK Cronin]

Pfft. If you claim that you like to engage posters is because you want to learn something then LEARN. My concerns were in every way exemplified in this game.

As for the above if this was true why did they lose the game literally a minute after I saw that they were backing off what they were doing in the first two periods? I mentioned how I didn’t like a couple of shifts and saw the momentum about to change. The game was lost EXACTLY as I said they were going to lose it. They played conservatively when they should have kept their foot on the pedal.

I already described that to you multiple times and you just keep ignoring the actual play.

You're going to seriously argue that the shifts before the goals that were scored are the cause for the goals rather than the shift they actually took place? What happened on the Bolduc/Aho goal? What happened on the turnover from Dobson goal? In detail please.

And while you were trying to lecture me about what you thought was happening I was looking at the bigger picture watching how our D was collapsing in front of Sorokin and as predicted allowed the opposing team to score on a screen shot just like they allowed against the Avs. Just as I told you opposing teams have been doing. You can’t do this in the game you have to get the puck out of the zone and keep the opposing team hemmed into their own D zone. When protecting leads they have to stop collapsing in front of the net and have a player approach the puck carrier at the blue line to cut down his angles and passing lanes. They play like they are down a man. They just all fall back and huddle around the net giving time for the point men to wind up and get a screen shot on the Isles goaltender. It’s predictable and every team now knows how to take advantage of it. A player must attack the puck carrier at the point.

The first goal wasn't a screen shot.

The second goal deflected off Wahlstrom, who was challenging the point.

Here, I'll use pictures. This was Wahlstrom who was in position to get the puck and it skipped over his stick.

Here we see the Detroit defenseman grab the puck after it hopped Wahlstrom's stick. There are three Red Wings below the hash marks, you want those guys left alone? What exactly is Wahlstrom supposed to do here other than go towards the point like he's doing?

The third goal was a tap in because they lost their coverage. In both the second and third goal the winger did attack the point. Also, just a note, you seem to think point shots with screens are a unique strategy teams employ against the Islanders. It isn't. Every team in the NHL uses point shots with screens because they're easy opportunities to get.

On the offensive side there absolutely were some improvements. They absolutely were being more aggressive on offense and opening up the game a bit. I love seeing Dobson joining or leading the rush. I love how loose the players were relentlessly getting pucks to the net and driving towards the net. They were entering the offensive zone with speed and I thought they moved the puck quicker and less telegraphing their passes on the PP. Horvat is finally showing us why he was worth the salary and picks. This was an element I haven’t seen in a long time. In fact it looked like the Islanders were enjoying themselves. Unfortunately this last for only 2 1/2 periods and inexplicably they stopped pressing and allowed the opposing team to regroup.

And you're going to chalk this difference up to a system change?

If they can just fix this mental aspect of the game they will fix a lot of their problems in giving up leads. If they learn to open up the game at the right times during a game they will do well. The first 2 periods were fantastic and I couldn’t ask for more. The third not so much.

Oh, open it up when it it leads to goals for but not for goals against. Got it.

Your posts are like this, regardless of how the game was actually played:

"See, they won the game because they scored more doing the things I said they should do!"
"See, they lost the game because they didn't do the things I said they should do!"

You use results of the game to defend your "opinions" and completely ignore anything that actually happened in the game.

 

[MJF]

I was urgently destroying a UBS stall when Detroit and isles scored their third goals. Guess it didn’t help.

You had the Halal Lamb with too much tzatziki sauce?

 

[Throttle]

100% correct. Lou is going to trade a 2nd before the deadline to acquire such a player. Find an older vet D-man with good character on a non-playoff team on an expiring contract and you've probably identified Lou's target.

Seemed to work out pretty darn well with Greene, no?

 

[Rehabguy]

I already described that to you multiple times and you just keep ignoring the actual play.

You're going to seriously argue that the shifts before the goals that were scored are the cause for the goals rather than the shift they actually took place? What happened on the Bolduc/Aho goal? What happened on the turnover from Dobson goal? In detail please.



The first goal wasn't a screen shot.

The second goal deflected off Wahlstrom, who was challenging the point.

Here, I'll use pictures. This was Wahlstrom who was in position to get the puck and it skipped over his stick.
View attachment 760788

Here we see the Detroit defenseman grab the puck after it hopped Wahlstrom's stick. There are three Red Wings below the hash marks, you want those guys left alone? What exactly is Wahlstrom supposed to do here other than go towards the point like he's doing?

View attachment 760789

The third goal was a tap in because they lost their coverage. In both the second and third goal the winger did attack the point. Also, just a note, you seem to think point shots with screens are a unique strategy teams employ against the Islanders. It isn't. Every team in the NHL uses point shots with screens because they're easy opportunities to get.



And you're going to chalk this difference up to a system change?



Oh, open it up when it it leads to goals for but not for goals against. Got it.

Your posts are like this, regardless of how the game was actually played:

"See, they won the game because they scored more doing the things I said they should do!"
"See, they lost the game because they didn't do the things I said they should do!"

You use results of the game to defend your "opinions" and completely ignore anything that actually happened in the game.

On the first goal they stopped skating a for a few shifts which allowed the Wings to build momentum. That's the point when I mentioned in this thread that I didn't like what I was seeing. A minute later they scored their first goal.

On the second goal they did what they always do. They allowed the rushing forwards too much room to enter the zone because they always collapse right in front of Sorokin. They need to slow up the oncoming forwards not just retreat towards the net. As per usual there were one too many defenseman standing in front of the net. There was only one opponent to contend with at the net yet they always have two defensemen needlessly crowding the front of the net blocking Sorokin's vision. He's being screened HIS OWN PLAYERS. Like I said in the game against NJ, Sorokin just needs to see the puck and he will be able to stop it. The opponent more often than not scores in these situations. The Isles are positioned like they are on a PK when they are still playing 5 on 5. This collapsing in front of the net (anchor strategy) bullshit is what's causing the Islanders so many late period collapses. The defensive system has to change. They just have to persist with their man on man coverage in the D zone and they will be fine. Creating a wall in front of one of the best goaltenders in the league is mindnumbingly stupid. Let Sorokin be Sorokin. He will be fine if you just let him see the puck. Convert the anchor strategy to a man to man coverage defensive system such as what the Lightning use and the Isles will be fine- especially with Sorokin in net.

Watch the video at the 5:30 mark and you will see exactly what I am talking about.



In general, when the game gets late this Islander squad either because of mental weakness or a poorly implemented anchor strategy that Lambert has them doing in front of the net causes them to turtle and unable to protect narrow leads.

 

[Glory Days]

Aho/Bolduc clearly aren’t effective. I would bring up Salo/Hutton. Could they be any worse?

The team lacks top 6 wingers. Not a new thought and a problem this team has had for a few years now. Lee is in decline, Barzal is not a wing, Engvall is only good at zone entries. Palmieri has been good.

The Isles lack of overtime success is a direct result of their poor puck handling/passing skills. The Isles can’t execute those tic tac toe passes that lead to most OT goals. Puck handling and passing skills are magnified with 3v3 and more open ice.

 

[crashthenet]

Horvat has been excellent. Unfortunate he gave that away in OT. Looked like he was trying to play it back for possession and didn’t get enough on a bouncing puck. Might have had barzal with a chip up the wall. Oh well, didn’t deserve the 2nd point anyway after that disgusting 5min stretch. Team could really use mayfield right about now. Bolduc/Aho pairing is bad.

Actually looked like it bounced back up into him. Puck was bouncing all night.

Dobson is like a bigger Marc Andre Bergeron. My goodness. Turnover after turnover and that nothing play after Bo's misplay. Who is addressing this?

Bolduc taking heat but it was Aho who blew that 2v2. Bolduc recovered and had his man. Aho did an amamzingly bad job on Sprong.

Barzal not being able to convert on at least one of his chances an obvious problem- 9mil per.

Nelson is a rockstar. He clearly directed Dobson on the Horvat goal and then allowed that puck to go through his legs. Beauty.

Holmstrom development continues.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

On the first goal they stopped skating a for a few shifts which allowed the Wings to build momentum. That's the point when I mentioned in this thread that I didn't like what I was seeing. A minute later they scored their first goal.

On the second goal they did what they always do. They allowed the rushing forwards too much room to enter the zone because they always collapse right in front of Sorokin. They need to slow up the oncoming forwards not just retreat towards the net. As per usual there were one too many defenseman standing in front of the net. There was only one opponent to contend with at the net yet they always have two defensemen needlessly crowding the front of the net blocking Sorokin's vision. He's being screened HIS OWN PLAYERS. Like I said in the game against NJ, Sorokin just needs to see the puck and he will be able to stop it. The opponent more often than not scores in these situations. The Isles are positioned like they are on a PK when they are still playing 5 on 5. This collapsing in front of the net bullshit is what's causing the Islanders so many late period collapses. The defensive system has to change. They just have to persist with their man on man coverage in the D zone and they will be fine. Creating a wall in front of one of the best goaltenders in the league is mindnumbingly stupid. Let Sorokin be Sorokin. He will be fine if you just let him see the puck.

Watch the video at the 5:30 mark and you will see exactly what I am talking about.



In general, when the game gets late this Islander squad either because of mental weakness or something Lambert has them doing causes them to turtle and protect narrow leads.

Defenseman screens goalie. Film at 11:00.

You certainly have a lot of words on this forum for someone that rarely posts.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

On the first goal they stopped skating a for a few shifts which allowed the Wings to build momentum. That's the point when I mentioned in this thread that I didn't like what I was seeing. A minute later they scored their first goal.

On the second goal they did what they always do. They allowed the rushing forwards too much room to enter the zone because they always collapse right in front of Sorokin. They need to slow up the oncoming forwards not just retreat towards the net. As per usual there were one too many defenseman standing in front of the net. There was only one opponent to contend with at the net yet they always have two defensemen needlessly crowding the front of the net blocking Sorokin's vision. He's being screened HIS OWN PLAYERS. Like I said in the game against NJ, Sorokin just needs to see the puck and he will be able to stop it. The opponent more often than not scores in these situations. The Isles are positioned like they are on a PK when they are still playing 5 on 5. This collapsing in front of the net bullshit is what's causing the Islanders so many late period collapses. The defensive system has to change. They just have to persist with their man on man coverage in the D zone and they will be fine. Creating a wall in front of one of the best goaltenders in the league is mindnumbingly stupid. Let Sorokin be Sorokin. He will be fine if you just let him see the puck.

Watch the video at the 5:30 mark and you will see exactly what I am talking about.



In general, when the game gets late this Islander squad either because of mental weakness or something Lambert has them doing causes them to turtle and protect narrow leads.

The moment of the video you decided to point out is two of the worst defensmen on the team making egregious defensive mistakes. Which has nothing to do with a defensive system.

If I am reading correctly, are you advocating for Islanders players to not block shots?

 

[crashthenet]

I was urgently destroying a UBS stall when Detroit and isles scored their third goals. Guess it didn’t help.

I thought that was the goalhorn going off and was confused.

 

[YearlyLottery]

100% correct. Lou is going to trade a 2nd before the deadline to acquire such a player. Find a older vet D-man with good character on a non-playoff team on an expiring contract and you've probably identified Lou's target.

This was the problem with the offseason in general. This team almost missed playoffs when Pelech went down. Mayfield goes down this year and there is just zero depth back there. For the record I think Bolduc brings a really nice skillset to the table for development. The problem is when you pair him up with Aho they have created a terrible third pairing. Neither can handle anything more than third pairing minutes though.

 

[Rehabguy]

The moment of the video you decided to point out is two of the worst defensmen on the team making egregious defensive mistakes. Which has nothing to do with a defensive system.

If I am reading correctly, are you advocating for Islanders players to not block shots?

I want them to stop blocking Sorokin's vision and convert this anchoring in front of the net to man on man coverage. This system has failed the team several key moments in pivotal games. It's not because it was Aho and Bolduc, this team gives up goals in the same manner regardless who is in front of the net. It's been happening more since Lambert took over.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I want them to stop blocking Sorokin's vision and convert this anchoring in front of the net to man on man coverage. This system has failed the team several key moments in pivotal games. It's not because it was Aho and Bolduc, this team gives up goals in the same manner regardless who is in front of the net. It's been happening more since Lambert took over.

They gave up 222 (2.7 per game) goals last season. Good for 6th in the league and an improvement over Trotz's last year. So far this year they are at 2.8 goals per game. 10th in the league.

 

[Tahoeblue]

Frustrating loss for sure. As many noted a pretty favorable schedule and home games out of the gate and our best player was between the pipes. This team needs to try to separate and stay with the higher echelon of teams in east and metro. There is that saying about playoffs and Thanksgiving and that is like 3 weeks away.

Do you break up dman pairs to spread the wealth? The broadcast mentioned Pulock and Romanov's effectiveness last night. Come on coaching staff!

 

[PK Cronin]

On the first goal they stopped skating a for a few shifts which allowed the Wings to build momentum. That's the point when I mentioned in this thread that I didn't like what I was seeing. A minute later they scored their first goal.

So you're argument is that momentum from previous plays is the cause for the breakdown on the play where the goal is scored? It's illogical to come to that conclusion. Why are you ignoring the aggression showed by Bolduc and how it backfired? It's not like there was an icing and a tired group out there or something.

On the second goal they did what they always do. They allowed the rushing forwards too much room to enter the zone because they always collapse right in front of Sorokin.

Which is the exact opposite of what happened on the Bolduc play, but you're ignoring that. Why?

They also didn't collapse right in front of him. Pelech actually makes a play stepping up on the puck and whiffs when there's a cross ice pass.

They need to slow up the oncoming forwards not just retreat towards the net. As per usual there were one too many defenseman standing in front of the net. There was only one opponent to contend with at the net yet they always have two defensemen needlessly crowding the front of the net blocking Sorokin's vision. The opponent always scores in these situations. The Isles are positioned like they are on a PK when they are still playing 5 on 5. This collapsing in front of the net bullshit is what's causing the Islanders so many late period collapses. The defensive system has to change.

Sometimes the play is to be aggressive at the blue line and other times it isn't. The lost coverage on the third goal is infuriating, but that isn't a strategy issue, it's an execution (and a simple one at that).

Watch the video at the 5:30 mark and you will see exactly what I am talking about.

That's the least applicable to what you're talking about because that's on a rush. Aho plays it terribly, because he's bad, and it all stemmed from Bolduc being aggressive at the blue line (which again is what you want). Those are the types of break downs that can happen when you're overly aggressive and fail to execute. Aho should've done more than just wave at the guy but the predicament and going to the net to try and defend an odd man situation is correct.

In general, when the game gets late this Islander squad either because of mental weakness or something Lambert has them doing causes them to turtle and protect narrow leads.

I think they don't handle it well when other teams turn up the pressure because they simply aren't good enough. What we see from most of the players is their best effort and they don't have the ability to elevate to another level.

I appreciate the time you took with this one, so thank you. Way more specific and I like that.

 

[Throttle]

After being up 2-0, this should have been a clear win. However, the team just played very vanilla from there on. For about 10-15 minutes, the building was silent and you could hear the ‘crowd’ - not in a good way. Reminded me of some euro games where the team is playing and not much else going on.

They lost all on their own. Simple as that.

 

[mm11]

After being up 2-0, this should have been a clear win. However, the team just played very vanilla from there on. For about 10-15 minutes, the building was silent and you could hear the ‘crowd’ - not in a good way. Reminded me of some euro games where the team is playing and not much else going on.

They lost all on their own. Simple as that.

Man, would be nice to get some hunger and start playing with a chips on their collective shoulders. All the way from the coach to the highest paid player down to the 5th and 6th dman. If I was gambling man Mr Lou upstairs can't be too happy and the coach may have a short leash

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Man, would be nice to get some hunger and start playing with a chips on their collective shoulders. All the way from the coach to the highest paid player down to the 5th and 6th dman. If I was gambling man Mr Lou upstairs can't be too happy and the coach may have a short leash

I think he was on a short leash from day one. But record-wise (both last year and currently being 4-2-2) tough to justify firing him. If they're on the outside looking in in a month, I can see Lou making a change.

 

[Rehabguy]

So you're argument is that momentum from previous plays is the cause for the breakdown on the play where the goal is scored? It's illogical to come to that conclusion. Why are you ignoring the aggression showed by Bolduc and how it backfired? It's not like there was an icing and a tired group out there or something.



Which is the exact opposite of what happened on the Bolduc play, but you're ignoring that. Why?

They also didn't collapse right in front of him. Pelech actually makes a play stepping up on the puck and whiffs when there's a cross ice pass.



Sometimes the play is to be aggressive at the blue line and other times it isn't. The lost coverage on the third goal is infuriating, but that isn't a strategy issue, it's an execution (and a simple one at that).



That's the least applicable to what you're talking about because that's on a rush. Aho plays it terribly, because he's bad, and it all stemmed from Bolduc being aggressive at the blue line (which again is what you want). Those are the types of break downs that can happen when you're overly aggressive and fail to execute. Aho should've done more than just wave at the guy but the predicament and going to the net to try and defend an odd man situation is correct.



I think they don't handle it well when other teams turn up the pressure because they simply aren't good enough. What we see from most of the players is their best effort and they don't have the ability to elevate to another level.

I appreciate the time you took with this one, so thank you. Way more specific and I like that.

Mistakes are going to happen from time to time so I'm not going to blame individual players like Bolduc or Aho for lost games just I won't blame Horvat for coughing up the puck in OT. This was the least of their problems.

When there is a systematic breakdown in D zone late in game after game that's predictable then I start to worry. When I see a team frequently losing momentum and mental toughness then that's a problem.

In regards to the latter I’ve already addressed their problems with scoring and it revolves around not playing too conservative a game. Not every line has to aggressively forecheck. Our more skilled lines should try to score off the rush with the dman jumping into the play. We are seeing more of this under Lambert recently to his credit. Mentally speaking they need to stick to what is working for 3 periods. Like clockwork they inexplicably turtle deciding somewhere in third periods to rely solely on zone defense to finish out a game. It always seems to fail. The best defense is a good offense. Play to win. Don’t play not to lose.

In regards to the former. The Isles have to move away from an anchor defense in front of Sorokin. It's causing more problems than helping and convert their system closer towards man on man coverage or a hybrid system when the opposing team enters the zone much like the Lightning deploy. Two defensemen quickly retreating to either side of the net allowing the opposing team's easy and deep entry into the D zone zone is absurd. It's just messing up Sorokin's game and giving the opposing team so many opportunities to set up a good screen shot(s) on our goaltender. As anyone observes with Sorokin, he's phenomenal if he see's the puck, but this implementation of an anchor system is blocking his view and I would prefer more man to man coverage or at the very least a hybrid system with man on an man coverage at the blue line over strictly zone defense . Our current highly conservative defensive system failed at the most inopportune moment. Again it requires trust with our goaltenders though they just may be the best tandem in the league so why not trust them?

 

[Osakahaus]

No question, one can't skate and the other just doesn't fit.

Wahlstrom just has no awareness and he's terrible with his shot. Typical islanders 1st round forward bust who shows little to nothing.

Lee has been dreadful since the Zacha injury, and this is the toll. We really have to consider putting him on the 3rd line instead of the 1st line. But that 7M contract is just so nasty looking. We are going to be staring at one of the ugliest contracts in islanders history for another 3 seasons.

 

[PK Cronin]

Mistakes are going to happen from time to time so I'm not going to blame individual players like Bolduc or Aho for lost games just I won't blame Horvat for coughing up the puck in OT. This was the least of their problems.

I understand what you're saying but we can't completely ignore the individuals. Horvat is a veteran with a great track record defensively. He made a mistake and/or an unfortunate event happened. It happens, that's part of the game.

When it comes to Bolduc or Aho the issue is that they attempted to stand someone up at the blue line but failed. If they cannot execute that game plan then that shouldn't be the game plan if they're in the lineup. This is why I'm so confused by what you're advocating because there seems to be a lack of consistency on when you want it applied.

Bolduc makes a play at the blue line and it directly leads to a play you don't like by Aho because he's put in a terrible position. "A" leads to "B" but you're only focusing on "B." You're going to get more of "B" if you don't correct "A" but you can't correct it because it's what you're advocating for.

With lesser players like these two these mistakes will be more common than the one Horvat made.

When there is a systematic breakdown in D zone late in game after game that's predictable then I start to worry. When I see a team frequently losing momentum and mental toughness then that's a problem.

You're painting a broad stroke with these systemic breakdowns. Each was very different and none were really what you originally described (collapsing around the goalie).

The first goal was a misplay by Bolduc at the blue line.
The second goal Pelech tried to pick off the cross ice pass and didn't.
Then there's Wahlstrom who just had unfortunate luck on a bouncing puck. Bouncing pucks aren't systemic.

There's an issue with the team losing momentum for sure. I don't disagree there, but I don't think being more aggressive is going to fix that. Defensive systems don't work for 50 minutes at a time and then start to fail in the final 10 minutes because it's a systemic issue. That's an execution issue most likely, unless they are really told to play differently but I didn't see any indication of that last night.

If you want the details as I edited in my last post. The Isles have to move away from an anchor defense in front of Sorokin. It's causing more problems than helping and convert their system to man on man coverage or a smothering system when the opposing team enters the zone. Much like the Lightning deploy. Two men on either side of the net allowing the opposing team's easy entry into the D zone zone. It's just messing up Sorokin's game and playing to the opponent's hands. As anyone observes with Sorokin. He's phenomenal if he see's the puck, but the anchor system is blocking his view and I would prefer more man to man coverage over zone defense . It's failed at the most inopportune moment. Again it requires trust with our goaltenders and we have possibly the best tandem in the league.

If you prefer man to man I take no issue with that. At least that is something I can wrap my head around even if it isn't something I'd do. Man to man leaves players on islands a lot more and I'm not sure we have the skaters for that style. Imagine Lee being responsible for Makar?

Do you believe in blocking shots or not? I'm of the Tortorella school and believe in blocking everything you can. Some coaches don't like that at all though.

Also, just wanted to mention that I was wrong about the Dobson play. I was re-watching and his cross-ice pass that was picked off in the offensive zone was on the possession before the goal was scored. It went into the Islanders end and then the Islanders had another offensive rush before it came back and in the net.

 

[doublechili]

I think he was on a short leash from day one. But record-wise (both last year and currently being 4-2-2) tough to justify firing him. If they're on the outside looking in in a month, I can see Lou making a change.

I agree about the short leash. As for timing, they have 5 upcoming games and then a 4 game west coast trip and then 3 days off. If Lou isn't happy, we might know by the day after that trip ends (11/19). And it might not be just Lou - ownership might have something to say too, especially if they think they have a better alternative.

 

[Throttle]

especially if they think they have a better alternative.

Get spicey, add some Quenville or Babcock.

Who are these alternatives? There’s not much veterans (Gallant?) sitting on the sideline. You can’t promote McLean to take the spot or put in another ‘hot’ assistant.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I agree about the short leash. As for timing, they have 5 upcoming games and then a 4 game west coast trip and then 3 days off. If Lou isn't happy, we might know by the day after that trip ends (11/19). And it might not be just Lou - ownership might have something to say too, especially if they think they have a better alternative.

It's Lou so who really knows but I think he'll have more time than that. Now, if they were currently sitting at like 1-5-2, yeah I'd say he has about 9 games to the team on track.