GDT: GDT #69 New York Islanders @ Detroit Red Wings | March 21st | 7:00 PM | F/L 6-3

[PK Cronin]

Sure - Everyone should be held accountable. No problem with that. If this team was much more talented, was competing for the President's Trophy, and a true Cup contender then I'd be much more on Barzal, as in that case his mistakes would be more glaring. Thing is Barzal isn’t in the top 10 issues with this team right now, but somehow is near the top of the list of complaints by fans. That doesn't add up.

I think the problem is people think Barzal is something he's not. Barzal is a very very good player...But he's not an elite player. This isn't MacKinnon or McDavid we're talking about here who can totally drive play on their own. Barzal can create offense and make his linemates better, but in order to do so he needs to be with other talented players (like Horvat types - Not Holmstrom types). The fact that we're in year 8 of Barzal's career and the Isles GMs during that time haven't surrounded him with linemates that can maximize his potential is their failure - Not his.

Barzal certainly has his negatives, but he's the #1 guy on the team (out of only 3 or 4) that can actually create some offense for a team that has big trouble scoring. For all his mistakes he has tons more positive plays where he generates offensive zone time, scoring chances, and actual goals.

Barzal is a point per game player and #23 overall in scoring leaders in the entire NHL (despite being the 32nd highest paid player) - And every player above him on that list is on a better team playing with better players around them. So by the numbers Barzal, even with his flaws, is earning his salary.

So I'm all for giving Barzal shit for his mistakes, but when you talk about overall issues with this franchise, just make sure you give guys like Lee, Pageau, Pelech, Pulock, Engvall, Mayfield, and especially Lou a lot more.

If Barzal actually shot the puck he'd be much closer to the MacKinnon and McDavid types, that's the issue. He has the talent to be that good and we see it from time to time but not consistently. If you've accepted that from your top player, okay, but that's not going to stop others from criticising that type of play. He gets more minutes than the Engvall's and Pageau's and is consistently put out during times where the team needs to score and he passes it instead. Saying Engvall is a bigger problem when he's playing 5-7 less minutes per night and in less crucial situations just isn't accurate when discussing the actual game (not roster construction). The expectations for your top players needs to be substantially higher than it does for the bottom players because they're capable of a lot more. Shrugging your shoulders and saying, "he is what he is" and then complaining about Engvall and not accepting a more limited player for what he is seems completely backwards. To be clear, Engvall also deserves criticism, but he's not the reason Barzal doesn't shoot the puck when he's in a prime scoring location (actually, he might be because Barzal is trying to pass it to him).

I don't think Barzal is the #1 guy on the team, he's just got the most talent.

I feel like many conflate complaints about the actual game we're watching with the roster construction. Though connected, they're two different things. Sure, if we had an upgrade on Engvall or Lee then Barzal might need to be scoring some of these goals we're looking for, but that's the position he's in, he has the opportunity, and he's not doing it.

 

[Throttle]

Sure - Everyone should be held accountable. No problem with that. If this team was much more talented, was competing for the President's Trophy, and a true Cup contender then I'd be much more on Barzal, as in that case his mistakes would be more glaring. Thing is Barzal isn’t in the top 10 issues with this team right now, but somehow is near the top of the list of complaints by fans. That doesn't add up.

I think the problem is people think Barzal is something he's not. Barzal is a very very good player...But he's not an elite player. This isn't MacKinnon or McDavid we're talking about here who can totally drive play on their own. Barzal can create offense and make his linemates better, but in order to do so he needs to be with other talented players (like Horvat types - Not Holmstrom types). The fact that we're in year 8 of Barzal's career and the Isles GMs during that time haven't surrounded him with linemates that can maximize his potential is their failure - Not his.

Barzal certainly has his negatives, but he's the #1 guy on the team (out of only 3 or 4) that can actually create some offense for a team that has big trouble scoring. For all his mistakes he has tons more positive plays where he generates offensive zone time, scoring chances, and actual goals.

Barzal is a point per game player and #23 overall in scoring leaders in the entire NHL (despite being the 32nd highest paid player) - And every player above him on that list is on a better team playing with better players around them. So by the numbers Barzal, even with his flaws, is earning his salary.

So I'm all for giving Barzal shit for his mistakes, but when you talk about overall issues with this franchise, just make sure you give guys like Lee, Pageau, Pelech, Pulock, Engvall, Mayfield, and especially Lou a lot more.

Make his linemates better…that’s classic. There’s 8 years of that NOT happening except with one player this season. Brilliant.

 

[Torrey Redux]

I almost wish the Isles the Isles would trade Barzal away just so his few haters would see how truly embarrassing this team would be.

But it isn't about hating him or thinking that he's no good. He is very, very talented but he simply does not fill the role that the organization - and the fans - were hoping that he would fill, that of face of the franchise, team leader, guy you can rally round, clutch performer, elite scorer. Seven years in he just isn't that guy.

And yes, without him the team would be embarrassing offensively, but it's pretty embarrassing on both sides of the puck now and in the worst possible way. Just good enough to never be great. A borderline playoff team with no real shot. A team can stay in that mode for a long time if they don't accept that that is the situation. Everything and everyone has to be on the table. Doesn't mean you give players away, but "all offers considered". And of course, the guy considering those offers must change.

 

[MJF]

Biggest game of the year thus far and the team lays the proverbial egg (or is that a term only used when you get shutout?)

Whatever, they $hit the bed.

Unable to finish, it was only a question of time before Detroit would. Then they didn't even need to do anything particularly special to get half a dozen goals into our net.

If we go by Patrick Roy's post game assessment that the Isles played really well, deserved to win but didn't get the bounces, then I see it as coming back to the bolded. The Isles don't have finishers and they haven't since Lou's arrival. They missed 3 empty nets by my count. Somebody here has to put the puck in the f***ing net!

But does anyone really wanna see this outfit back its way into the playoffs somehow with a late surge only to enter the first round fray against FLA or CAR???

I can think of 2 or 3 posters here who do

 

[MJF]

But it isn't about hating him or thinking that he's no good. He is very, very talented but he simply does not fill the role that the organization - and the fans - were hoping that he would fill, that of face of the franchise, team leader, guy you can rally round, clutch performer, elite scorer. Seven years in he just isn't that guy.

And yes, without him the team would be embarrassing offensively, but it's pretty embarrassing on both sides of the puck now and in the worst possible way. Just good enough to never be great. A borderline playoff team with no real shot. A team can stay in that mode for a long time if they don't accept that that is the situation. Everything and everyone has to be on the table. Doesn't mean you give players away, but "all offers considered". And of course, the guy considering those offers must change.

People have been waiting for Mat Barzal to carry the team on his back the way John Tavares did in the playoffs against the Panthers and he hasn't ever really done that. If you were to tell us "Barzy isn't that kind of player" then Lou made a mistake paying him $9M/yr. That kind of money should be reserved for difference makers, not set up guys. I think that's where some people get really frustrated with him.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Well, I only live about 15 miles from the Panthers arena, maybe I can get a cheap Stubhub ticket . . .

The last time I went to a Kitty Cats game was on a Wednesday night against Tampa a few moons ago.

My buddy and I went up to the ticket window and picked out our fave seats right in one of the front rows of the upper deck behind the goal.

The lady said, "That'll be $34.27, including tax".

So I gave her 70 bucks.

She said, "Oh, I mean it's a total of $34.27. That's what the two tickets together cost."

My buddy then insisted on treating me to dinner in the arena, which then ended up costing more than the tickets anyways.

Ahhh, the good ol' days.

 

[leeroggy]

The last time I went to a Kitty Cats game was on a Wednesday night against Tampa a few moons ago.

My buddy and I went up to the ticket window and picked out our fave seats right in one of the front rows of the upper deck behind the goal.

The lady said, "That'll be $34.27, including tax".

So I gave her 70 bucks.

She said, "Oh, I mean it's a total of $34.27. That's what the two tickets together cost."

My buddy then insisted on treating me to dinner in the arena, which then ended up costing more than the tickets anyways.

Ahhh, the good ol' days.

Don't forget that if you drove a Lexus, parking was free. Now I pay $34.27 to buy 4 Mcdonald's Happy Meals . . . and the toy is either a napkin or a straw

If we go by Patrick Roy's post game assessment that the Isles played really well, deserved to win but didn't get the bounces, then I see it as coming back to the bolded. The Isles don't have finishers and they haven't since Lou's arrival. They missed 3 empty nets by my count. Somebody here has to put the puck in the f***ing net!

To change up our luck, how about we say "put the biscuit in the basket"?

 

[Torrey Redux]

If Barzal actually shot the puck he'd be much closer to the MacKinnon and McDavid types, that's the issue. He has the talent to be that good and we see it from time to time but not consistently. If you've accepted that from your top player, okay, but that's not going to stop others from criticising that type of play. He gets more minutes than the Engvall's and Pageau's and is consistently put out during times where the team needs to score and he passes it instead. Saying Engvall is a bigger problem when he's playing 5-7 less minutes per night and in less crucial situations just isn't accurate when discussing the actual game (not roster construction). The expectations for your top players needs to be substantially higher than it does for the bottom players because they're capable of a lot more. Shrugging your shoulders and saying, "he is what he is" and then complaining about Engvall and not accepting a more limited player for what he is seems completely backwards. To be clear, Engvall also deserves criticism, but he's not the reason Barzal doesn't shoot the puck when he's in a prime scoring location (actually, he might be because Barzal is trying to pass it to him).

I don't think Barzal is the #1 guy on the team, he's just got the most talent.

I feel like many conflate complaints about the actual game we're watching with the roster construction. Though connected, they're two different things. Sure, if we had an upgrade on Engvall or Lee then Barzal might need to be scoring some of these goals we're looking for, but that's the position he's in, he has the opportunity, and he's not doing it.

C'mon man. First of all, MacKinnon and McDavid are their own "types" and no one else is in their neighborhood. Not Matthews, not Pettersson, not Draisaitl, not Point and not Sid anymore. If you want to lump in the wings, which is where I think Barzal should stay, he's not in the Kucherov, Pasternak, Panarin conversation either. He's very good, and he would probably thrive in the right situation, but you point to the fact that he doesn't shoot enough and that's true. But just like Engvall's lack of physicality and the fact that you can't beat that into somebody who doesn't have it in their DNA no matter how hard you try, Barzal lacks something, and it isn't skill, that makes him not as good as those other guys. Call it decisiveness, call it hockey IQ, call it anything you want, he doesn't have that thing that separates the very good from the elite.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Tell you what, since you're so passionate, and not the least bit upset about the Isles current and future crappy players+seasons, I'll cheer for you if you cheer for me.

Tell you what, make like a tree and get the hell outta here

 

[Cleatus]

Tell you what, make like a tree and get the hell outta here

It's "make like a tree and leave." You sound like a Leafs fan when you say it wrong.

 

[beach]

Don't forget that if you drove a Lexus, parking was free. Now I pay $34.27 to buy 4 Mcdonald's Happy Meals . . . and the toy is either a napkin or a straw



To change up our luck, how about we say "put the biscuit in the basket"?

Or "hide the salami"?
Wait, wrong game....

 

[PK Cronin]

C'mon man. First of all, MacKinnon and McDavid are their own "types" and no one else is in their neighborhood. Not Matthews, not Pettersson, not Draisaitl, not Point and not Sid anymore. If you want to lump in the wings, which is where I think Barzal should stay, he's not in the Kucherov, Pasternak, Panarin conversation either. He's very good, and he would probably thrive in the right situation, but you point to the fact that he doesn't shoot enough and that's true. But just like Engvall's lack of physicality and the fact that you can't beat that into somebody who doesn't have it in their DNA no matter how hard you try, Barzal lacks something, and it isn't skill, that makes him not as good as those other guys. Call it decisiveness, call it hockey IQ, call it anything you want, he doesn't have that thing that separates the very good from the elite.

I was making a general point that I thought included all of the players you listed.

I'm in agreement about the rest but why would we give someone with less skill more of a pass, that doesn't make sense. We should call them both out when you see them.

 

[MattMartin]

Tell you what, since you're so passionate, and not the least bit upset about the Isles current and future crappy players+seasons, I'll cheer for you if you cheer for me.

Cheer for the Leafs? Yikes....

 

[Torrey Redux]

I was making a general point that I thought included all of the players you listed.

I'm in agreement about the rest but why would we give someone with less skill more of a pass, that doesn't make sense. We should call them both out when you see them.

Then, yes, I agree.

 

[Cleatus]

Cheer for the Leafs? Yikes....

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media1.tenor.com

Regardless, I'm happy for you and your fellow fans. Way to go Strong Island!!

 

[Riseonfire]

Horvat, Barzal, Dobson are the only core pieces I'd not think about trading.

Everyone else should be available this summer.

HOWEVER, Lou will keep plugging away with this roster until at least our hosted ASG in 2026. We will rebuild after that (IMO).

 

[Nizami Ganjavi]

But it isn't about hating him or thinking that he's no good. He is very, very talented but he simply does not fill the role that the organization - and the fans - were hoping that he would fill, that of face of the franchise, team leader, guy you can rally round, clutch performer, elite scorer. Seven years in he just isn't that guy.

"Face of the franchise?" "Clutch performer?" "Guy you can rally around?" What does any of that mean? Reminds me of the scene in Moneyball when the old scouts are talking nonsense like "he's got a great jaw."

Who was hoping he would be an elite goal scorer? He was never known as an elite scorer, not even in juniors. His assists outnumbered his goals 2:1 sometimes 3:1 his entire hockey career.

Leader? He was alternate captain for one season in juniors.

What you see is what you get with Barzal. Roughly 20 goals and 50 assists. One of the best skaters in the league. Will create opportunities out of nothing. First line player. Keep your expectations there.

 

[Nizami Ganjavi]

People have been waiting for Mat Barzal to carry the team on his back the way John Tavares did in the playoffs against the Panthers and he hasn't ever really done that. If you were to tell us "Barzy isn't that kind of player" then Lou made a mistake paying him $9M/yr. That kind of money should be reserved for difference makers, not set up guys. I think that's where some people get really frustrated with him.

That's the price tag these days. If he were more of a difference maker it would be $10M/yr+

 

[Torrey Redux]

"Face of the franchise?" "Clutch performer?" "Guy you can rally around?" What does any of that mean? Reminds me of the scene in Moneyball when the old scouts are talking nonsense like "he's got a great jaw."

Who was hoping he would be an elite goal scorer? He was never known as an elite scorer, not even in juniors. His assists outnumbered his goals 2:1 sometimes 3:1 his entire hockey career.

Leader? He was alternate captain for one season in juniors.

What you see is what you get with Barzal. Roughly 20 goals and 50 assists. One of the best skaters in the league. Will create opportunities out of nothing. First line player. Keep your expectations there.

It means exactly what most people interpret those things to mean, that is most people who don't have a stick up their ass about another particular poster and just feel like taking shots no matter what is written.

As for the substance, I think a lot of fans were having visions of a great and franchise 1st line center off of Barzal's rookie Calder Trophy season. That has not come to pass, because yeah, 20 goals and 50+ assists is about right, but he set bar high early and now most, rightly or wrongly, feel a sense of disappointment.

 

[steveat]

I cannot tell if Roy is being Facetious or not. He's not calling anyone out...ok fine...but the way he is talking..it sounds like he is still coaching 16/17 year olds. These are GROWN MEN. Part of me feels like this is just a reuse ..pretend to be blind..maybe Lou does something about it. OR Maybe he's doing this to throw Lou under the bus..."I'm doing the best I can, but this product is shit"

Roys attitude is seriously puzzling...

 

[Nizami Ganjavi]

Worse record with Roy than with Lambert.

 

[Torrey Redux]

I cannot tell if Roy is being Facetious or not. He's not calling anyone out...ok fine...but the way he is talking..it sounds like he is still coaching 16/17 year olds. These are GROWN MEN. Part of me feels like this is just a reuse ..pretend to be blind..maybe Lou does something about it. OR Maybe he's doing this to throw Lou under the bus..."I'm doing the best I can, but this product is shit"

Roys attitude is seriously puzzling...

That would be some serious 3D chess going there. I don't believe it, but I like it.

 

[MJF]

Worse record with Roy than with Lambert.

They’re coaches, not magicians.

I guess Lou needed to find out about the team he believes in.

 

[MJF]

That would be some serious 3D chess going there. I don't believe it, but I like it.

I think Roy is trying to not come off as a hothead and be overly critical of the players.

Remember, Roy quit the Avalanche in 2016 after blasting Joe Sakic for not giving him enough of a say on player personnel moves and didn’t get a call for an NHL job for 8 years until Lou hired him.

 

[Torrey Redux]

I think Roy is trying to not come off as a hothead and be overly critical of the players.

Remember, Roy quit the Avalanche in 2016 after blasting Joe Sakic for not giving him enough of a say on player personnel moves and didn’t get a call for an NHL job for 8 years until Lou hired him.

I think that is 100% true, but to what degree is he biting his tongue and how much effort is it requiring of him to do that and how long can he keep it up if things continue to go south? As you know, after his experience in CO he left the NHL and went to the Q where he knew almost nothing but success - and frankly where it's easier to have success. I just really have my doubts about this working as a long term relationship. This is going to be a very frustrating franchise to run for the foreseeable future, be it from behind the bench or upstairs.