Salary Cap: Gary Roberts and the Incredible Shrinking Kessel

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Obviously you'd much rather trade Scuderi. But I'm kind of thinking that's nearly impossible, at this point. I haven't exactly determined that it's impossible because his value is in the toilet and literally nobody wants him for anything or because the team has this unwavering faith in him and his ability to bounce back into form... whatever form that is.

Kunitz makes sense as a trade candidate because the team needs some wiggle room (if not now than certainly soon) and he's most certainly on the decline at 36 years old. But he also still has enough value that the team likely doesn't have to move the moon and stars to get something done.

I don't think Kunitz is quite to the point where he's going to play all 70-80 games of the season, or whatever, like he did the last half of last season. But neither do I think the team should really bend over backwards to hold on to him if there are deals to be made out there. I simply don't see him as a critical element to the team's success, anymore.

 

[Riptide]

His value has already taken a nose dive, it's not like an additional 20 games at the level he was at last year will hurt his value even further. You would have a point about sooner than later if we didn't have no better options than Kunitz at our disposal. But we don't. I'm not saying we need to keep Kunitz, I'm saying we need to keep Kunitz until Plotnikov and Dupuis show they are/are still good NHLers. Trading him right now has no reward and a ton of risk

It will. Right now just like on this board there's GMs who could look at him (especially if he comes cheaply) and say well perhaps he can bounce back. If he plays 20 games and does well, sure his value could go up. But if he comes back and plays 20 games and plays like ****, he'll be untradeable.

Personally I'd rather get less and move him, then try to maximize his value and take the risk that he becomes the anchor Scuderi is for another 2 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Personally I could care less who gets that spot. We have enough young guys who can play depth roles who need NHL icetime. Might as well give them a chance at those spots.

Dupuis - Crosby - Kessel
Perron - Malkin - Hornqvist
Plotnikov - Bonino - Bennett
Sundqvist/Wilson - Cullen - Rust

Once Fehr is back, you have a few more options for the bottom 6. IF we somehow managed a deal where we didn't take back salary then sign Tlusty (or someone else) as another depth option.

If Dupuis falters, then start shuffling other bodies into the remaining top 6 spot until you find a combination that works.

And what if Plotnikov doesn't adjust well over to the NHL? What if Dupuis gets another blood clot? Dupuis on the top line is already a massive stretch with a healthy Dupuis, it's makes it even worse because it's no guarantee he's healthy.

It will. Right now just like on this board there's GMs who could look at him (especially if he comes cheaply) and say well perhaps he can bounce back. If he plays 20 games and does well, sure his value could go up. But if he comes back and plays 20 games and plays like ****, he'll be untradeable.

Personally I'd rather get less and move him, then try to maximize his value and take the risk that he becomes the anchor Scuderi is for another 2 years.

Unless trading Kunitz actually helps us in some way (and no, just adding cap space doesn't do that), then we shouldn't trade him just for the sake of trading him until Plotnikov and Dupuis prove they can play. He's still a servicable 3rd liner if he's used properly, he's no where near Scuderi's level. He'd have to play even worse than he did last year to become another Scuderi. It's a lot more likely he has a bounce back beginning of the season due to it being early in the season and playing with Kessel and Crosby (most likely). I'd much rather take my chances with keeping Kunitz than just dumping him right now. There are too many "what ifs" for me to just want to get rid of him.

 

[madinsomniac]

Im thinking of sending Kessel a "welcome to Pittsburgh" basket, full of hot dogs, Kielbasa, and pirogues... I just wonder if he would take it the wrong way... lol

 

[Fordy]

And what if Plotnikov doesn't adjust well over to the NHL? What if Dupuis gets another blood clot? Dupuis on the top line is already a massive stretch with a healthy Dupuis, it's makes it even worse because it's no guarantee he's healthy.



Unless trading Kunitz actually helps us in some way (and no, just adding cap space doesn't do that), then we shouldn't trade him just for the sake of trading him until Plotnikov and Dupuis prove they can play. He's still a servicable 3rd liner if he's used properly, he's no where near Scuderi's level. He'd have to play even worse than he did last year to become another Scuderi. It's a lot more likely he has a bounce back beginning of the season due to it being early in the season and playing with Kessel and Crosby (most likely). I'd much rather take my chances with keeping Kunitz than just dumping him right now. There are too many "what ifs" for me to just want to get rid of him.

you're making up all the what ifs. anyone can make up what ifs. i don't care if dupuis never plays a game this year, it doesn't mean you should keep kunitz. i don't care if plotnikov flunks out in camp, it doesn't mean you should keep kunitz

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It will. Right now just like on this board there's GMs who could look at him (especially if he comes cheaply) and say well perhaps he can bounce back. If he plays 20 games and does well, sure his value could go up. But if he comes back and plays 20 games and plays like ****, he'll be untradeable.

Personally I'd rather get less and move him, then try to maximize his value and take the risk that he becomes the anchor Scuderi is for another 2 years.

This is pretty much where I'm at with Kunitz. They're playing with fire and time isn't in their side with him, and they really can't afford Kunitz, Scuderi and Dupuis to all be untradeable.

He probably will start the season looking good, but even that isn't a guarantee. If he does have a strong start he could take a nosedive before they trade him, he could get injured or the Pens could get tricked by that. I don't even think that him doing well on the 3rd line is guaranteed this season. He's another year older, has a lot of hard miles on him and couldn't get/stay healthy last season.

If they manage to move Scuderi then I'd be more amenable to taking a gamble on Kunitz... as long as he doesn't get that veteran glue keeping him in a role he shouldn't have.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If he does have a strong start he could take a nosedive before they trade him, he could get injured or the Pens could get tricked by that.

This is called "Pulling a Robert Lang."

 

[Riptide]

And what if Plotnikov doesn't adjust well over to the NHL? What if Dupuis gets another blood clot? Dupuis on the top line is already a massive stretch with a healthy Dupuis, it's makes it even worse because it's no guarantee he's healthy.

Even without Kunitz (and I don't see a trade happening with him where there isn't some salary coming back - aka a body), we still have 10 top 9 forwards. And that's without counting Plotnikov or any of the guys from WBS. That means that there's a lot of options if one of those rookies do not pan out. All we need some combination of Wilson, Rust, Sundqvist and Plotnikov to do is be a 4th line player, who ideally could move up a little. That's not asking all that much.

Dupuis - Crosby - Kessel
Perron - Malkin - Hornqvist
Bennett - Bonino - Fehr
Plotnikov - Cullen - Sundqvist
Wilson - Rust

Happy? We have a ton of options. Does Kunitz and Dupuis gives us more depth? Absolutely. But the potential that they (Kunitz especially) could harm this team long term due to their cap hits vastly outweighs whatever usefulness them providing depth brings. Basically, if Kunitz becomes untradeable, say good bye to Perron right now, because we're not likely going to be able to afford him cap wise.

 

[steveg]

Basically, if Kunitz becomes untradeable, say good bye to Perron right now, because we're not likely going to be able to afford him cap wise.

A question, out of curiousity --

Let's say Kunitz does become untradeable, and he's thus counting toward our cap both this year, and next -- with his contract then expiring before the 2017-18 season.

With Perron due a new contract starting next season, that's potentially one year of overlap with him on a new contract, and Kunitz still counting toward the cap. In that worst-case scenario, is there a way in today's NHL to structure a contract with Perron so that there's some cap relief in that first year? Tell him "hey, we want to re-sign you, but will have more financial flexibility a year from now; can you give us a break in the first year of the contract, numbers-wise, to make it all fit?"

Don't know if there's a way to do that, or not. Anyone?

 

[Riptide]

This is pretty much where I'm at with Kunitz. They're playing with fire and time isn't in their side with him, and they really can't afford Kunitz, Scuderi and Dupuis to all be untradeable.

He probably will start the season looking good, but even that isn't a guarantee. If he does have a strong start he could take a nosedive before they trade him, he could get injured or the Pens could get tricked by that. I don't even think that him doing well on the 3rd line is guaranteed this season. He's another year older, has a lot of hard miles on him and couldn't get/stay healthy last season.

If they manage to move Scuderi then I'd be more amenable to taking a gamble on Kunitz... as long as he doesn't get that veteran glue keeping him in a role he shouldn't have.

If he has a strong start, expect to see him in the top 6 and that JR will not trade him unless he absolutely has to (likely to address D).

I know he moved Sutter (thank God), but I'm still really hesitant to trust that he will trade Kunitz - someone that's been a part of this core here for what... 7 years?

 

[Riptide]

A question, out of curiousity --

Let's say Kunitz does become untradeable, and he's thus counting toward our cap both this year, and next -- with his contract then expiring before the 2017-18 season.

With Perron due a new contract starting next season, that's potentially one year of overlap with him on a new contract, and Kunitz still counting toward the cap. In that worst-case scenario, is there a way in today's NHL to structure a contract with Perron so that there's some cap relief in that first year? Tell him "hey, we want to re-sign you, but will have more financial flexibility a year from now; can you give us a break in the first year of the contract, numbers-wise, to make it all fit?"

Don't know if there's a way to do that, or not. Anyone?

Legally? No. He would have to sign a 1 yr deal with a verbal promise (or a handshake deal) that Pittsburgh would give him a quality long term extension in December. However promises and handshake deals are A illegal (however good luck proving anything that was verbal) and B not enforceable, and thus a massive risk for the player.

Basically, you'd be asking Perron to take a 1 yr deal with the promise that you'd give him 5x5m (or whatever) in December. Which means Perron accepts most of the risk. If he gets hurt or his play falls off, he's ****ed, and just lost millions. The flip side is that he could walk as a FA. But in that scenario Perron would be assuming the vast majority of the risk, and honestly, I'm not sure why he would.

But other than a 1 yr deal, no.

 

[steveg]

Legally? No. He would have to sign a 1 yr deal with a verbal promise (or a handshake deal) that Pittsburgh would give him a quality long term extension in December. However promises and handshake deals are A illegal (however good luck proving anything that was verbal) and B not enforceable, and thus a massive risk for the player.

Basically, you'd be asking Perron to take a 1 yr deal with the promise that you'd give him 5x5m (or whatever) in December. Which means Perron accepts most of the risk. If he gets hurt or his play falls off, he's ****ed, and just lost millions. The flip side is that he could walk as a FA. But in that scenario Perron would be assuming the vast majority of the risk, and honestly, I'm not sure why he would.

But other than a 1 yr deal, no.

OK, thanks. Yeah, that 1-year deal way of doing things obviously is far, far from ideal -- especially from the player's perspective. Sounds like no way to do it, really, which just is all the more reason Kunitz needs to be moved...soon...

 

[Speaking Moistly]

A question, out of curiousity --

Let's say Kunitz does become untradeable, and he's thus counting toward our cap both this year, and next -- with his contract then expiring before the 2017-18 season.

With Perron due a new contract starting next season, that's potentially one year of overlap with him on a new contract, and Kunitz still counting toward the cap. In that worst-case scenario, is there a way in today's NHL to structure a contract with Perron so that there's some cap relief in that first year? Tell him "hey, we want to re-sign you, but will have more financial flexibility a year from now; can you give us a break in the first year of the contract, numbers-wise, to make it all fit?"

Don't know if there's a way to do that, or not. Anyone?

No, cap hit averages out salary. So if it goes

Year 1: $2,000,000
Year 2: $5,000,000
Year 3: $5,000,000
Year 4: $5,500,000
Year 5: $5,500,000

Then his cap hit is $4,600,000 unless they want to try some bonuses that would inevitably bite them in the ass. Maybe frontload a long contract, but the league has really limited the ability to do that. Perron would be an idiot to sign a one year deal, but he could theoretically do that.

It's why they've really got to shed any of Kunitz, Dupuis and Scuderi that they can, when they can. Otherwise they'd probably have to do something to keep Maatta cheap or they'd need to move salary elsewhere (Fehr, Bonino, Cole...yeah, it's not good). They need that cap space for next season and Kunitz is a ticking time bomb.

 

[billybudd]

Rutherford was on the fan for at least an hour. EJ was with him.

Was in and out of the car so I didn't hear much, but he did give the impression that the idea with Pouliot is to pair him with Lovejoy and see if you get a Fowler/Lovejoy sort of thing. I'm sure he said more stuff, but I don't know what it was.

 

[Mike Lange Version 2]

No, cap hit averages out salary. So if it goes

Year 1: $2,000,000
Year 2: $5,000,000
Year 3: $5,000,000
Year 4: $5,500,000
Year 5: $5,500,000

Then his cap hit is $4,600,000 unless they want to try some bonuses that would inevitably bite them in the ass. Maybe frontload a long contract, but the league has really limited the ability to do that. Perron would be an idiot to sign a one year deal, but he could theoretically do that.

It's why they've really got to shed any of Kunitz, Dupuis and Scuderi that they can, when they can. Otherwise they'd probably have to do something to keep Maatta cheap or they'd need to move salary elsewhere (Fehr, Bonino, Cole...yeah, it's not good). They need that cap space for next season and Kunitz is a ticking time bomb.

I agree. I think due to his health, asking for a 2 year bridge from Maatta wouldn't be unreasonable. All of those bad contracts would be done by then. However, to keep perron we NEED to move someone.

 

[SprootsMasterFlex]

Rutherford was on the fan for at least an hour. EJ was with him.

Was in and out of the car so I didn't hear much, but he did give the impression that the idea with Pouliot is to pair him with Lovejoy and see if you get a Fowler/Lovejoy sort of thing. I'm sure he said more stuff, but I don't know what it was.

It should be available somewhere on the net to download if it was on the Fan. I've heard plenty of other recordings in recent past.

 

[steveg]

No, cap hit averages out salary. So if it goes

Year 1: $2,000,000
Year 2: $5,000,000
Year 3: $5,000,000
Year 4: $5,500,000
Year 5: $5,500,000

Then his cap hit is $4,600,000 unless they want to try some bonuses that would inevitably bite them in the ass. Maybe frontload a long contract, but the league has really limited the ability to do that. Perron would be an idiot to sign a one year deal, but he could theoretically do that.

It's why they've really got to shed any of Kunitz, Dupuis and Scuderi that they can, when they can. Otherwise they'd probably have to do something to keep Maatta cheap or they'd need to move salary elsewhere (Fehr, Bonino, Cole...yeah, it's not good). They need that cap space for next season and Kunitz is a ticking time bomb.

This is what I thought -- that the "cap hit" was the average of the total salary, spread out over the length of the contract, equal in each year of the contract. My only hope was maybe it could be structured a bit with incentives/bonuses, which didn't kick in until the second/third/fourth years and so on, but I figured that wasn't really viable, either. Bottom line, as has been said, AT LEAST one of Kunitz and Scuds must be gone...preferably both, by the start of next season...

 

[steveg]

Rutherford was on the fan for at least an hour. EJ was with him.

Was in and out of the car so I didn't hear much, but he did give the impression that the idea with Pouliot is to pair him with Lovejoy and see if you get a Fowler/Lovejoy sort of thing. I'm sure he said more stuff, but I don't know what it was.

Not sure I'd count on the "Fowler effect" for Lovejoy, playing with what is essentially a rookie (despite DP's pedigree and talent). Maatta with Lovejoy, sure, maybe you can re-create the "Fowler effect." With DP though? Not holding my breath...

EDIT: MORE of my concern, though, is reading between the lines. If JR is talking Lovejoy and Pouliot, that sounds like he's thinking of that duo for a second pairing. Which, then, to me, pretty much guarantees that he's implying Maatta-Letang as the first pairing. And thus, if I'm reading all this right, it SCARES me for what he's thinking for the third pairing. I'm guessing Cole-Scuderi...WHICH IS MY WORST FEAR...(Scuds in the top 6)...and Dumo as the 7.

I guess it's possible he's implying this:

Maatta-Letang
Dumo-Cole
Lovejoy-DP

or with Dumo-Cole as the third pairing and Lovejoy-DP as the second.

Anyway, even though I don't like those pairings on D, it's better than that other, dreaded possibility --

Maatta-Letang
Lovejoy-DP
Cole/Dumo-Scuds

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

-edit- **** it, not worth the response.

Keep defending Kunitz. I don't know how poorly a player has to play in order for some of you guys to take off your black and gold glasses and see that he's a terrible hockey player who has only seemed productive in recent years due to being gifted top PP time and being glued to the hip of the two best C's in the world.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

The dream is over.





Kunitz has a cap hit of 3.85M for two years... courtesy of Shero.

 

[Jacob]

Let's say we give Maatta a bridge deal worth $4 million in cap hit, and Perron a $5 million cap hit over 4-5 years or whatever, that's an increase of $4.2 million in total cap. Which can probably mostly be covered in buying out Scuderi (saves $2 million I believe?), and the normal increase in cap from year to year (about $2 million), and replacing Lovejoy (a UFA) with someone making $700k or less (-$500k).

Pretty much everyone else is already signed.

 

[mpp9]

Still think its a mistake to keep Kunitz on this roster when a serviceable forward like Tlusty is out there for 800k.

I guess all you can do is hope the guy rebounds.

 

[Riptide]

Jim Bennings thoughts on Sutter.

He's a good two way player and provides size up the middle.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Still think its a mistake to keep Kunitz on this roster when a serviceable forward like Tlusty is out there for 800k.

I guess all you can do is hope the guy rebounds.

Who trades for Kunitz when you can get Tlusty for 3 million less?

 

[Riptide]

I agree. I think due to his health, asking for a 2 year bridge from Maatta wouldn't be unreasonable. All of those bad contracts would be done by then. However, to keep perron we NEED to move someone.

You sign him to a bridge deal only if he's not interested in signing a long term deal. Long term he's going to cost less than 4.25m - so if you can get him signed to something like that, you do so and take the chance that his shoulder issue is really an issue.