TSN: Garrioch: Boucher going nowhere

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Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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How have Dorion’s moves pan out NOW, WHEN WE NEED IT?

The truth is his moves have actually hurt the team. We’re apparently going into a rebuild/retool without a prospect who is looking more and more like a gem in Dahlen so we could throw money and term at a guy who is no longer NHL calibre. On a cash strapped team no less. Where is Burrows now, when we need him? Dorion sold this guy as someone who can play up and down the lineup, a middle six guy, and based solely on performance he should be in Belleville at best. On top of that he’s suspended for a ridiculous incident that reflects negatively on the team.

We’re going into a retool having acquired Brassard for Zibanejad and a 2nd. Giving up the younger player with significantly more upside and a future asset in order to supposedly acquire a more consistent vet? Sure Zibanejad had an 8 game scoreless drought this season. SO HAS BRASSARD. Despite significant time with Stone. Brassard has also had a 7 game drought, Zib hasn’t. Zib is larger, faster, younger and the kicker is he has the same cap hit. How has that worked out? This year? What about going forward?

Newsflash: we didn’t win the cup last year.
That’s the objective of sports. To win, not to come close and fall short. Had we won last season I could entertain an argument that Dorion’s moves were a success. They very clearly weren’t. Even judging only on the short term Dorion’s moves last season were failures.

You can’t just look at results in a one season vaccum, the job is to ensure continued success.

Even if you want to be a synic and say the objective is to make money, look at our attendance. This is a garbage product and fans are responding in kind.

Let’s be real here too, even if we had scored the winner in game 7, our team was decimated by injury by then and likely wouldn’t have been able to hang with Nashville in the final. The main reason we got to where we did was absolute hero hockey from Erik Karlsson.

This season, we’re going into a rebuild/retool having traded our first from last year (who is by all accounts playing well and the tied as the leading rookie goal scorer in the NCAA) and more importantly our first in one of the next two drafts, a first which will end up being a key asset for Colorado going forward in order to acquire a minor upgrade on a core member of the locker room who was clearly loved by all. Our franchise leader in Playoff OT goals. A tremendous guy in the community.

Where are we now Ice-Tray? We’ve made all these « win now » moves? How are we doing? We’re THIRD LAST IN THE LEAGUE. This season has been an unmitigated disaster. I mean that quite literally, by any measure a team the GM sold as a contender being 3rd last is a disaster. The only saving grace would have been a great draft pick but because of Dorion’s moves we may or may not keep it.

Many posters around here argued Dorion’s moves increased the likelihood of resigning EK. How does that look now? Who really thinks Karlsson wants to stick around for the mediocrity that is coming up?

I’m not being a hater. I’m a frustrated fan watching his team being driven into the ground.



You can disagree that Dorion had followed the same path as Murray, that’s fine, I’ll even grant that he has been more aggressive than Murray. But how can you argue that we haven’t addressed our defense or that we haven’t kept the same « looking for a top 6 forward » messaging?

We lost our second best defenseman in the offseason and have done nothing to replace him.

I don’t appreciate the the suggestion that my narrative is lazy; argue the points not the position.

To be quite honest I wouldn’t be throwing around accusations of not looking at what the team « looks like » and « what [Dorion] has done » in your place. Our team made a series of « win now» trades giving up futures, and is currently third last in the NHL for the first time in (I don’t even know, maybe we sank that low the Zib draft year but ultimately finished higher. Before that was what 1996?), now we’re conceding it’s time to retool. How can you still be looking at Dorion’s performance through rose coloured glasses?

That' a lot of post, and much I don't agree with. Dorion traded what I view to be acceptable futures, and all were secondary compared to our top several assets. We traded away Bowers and a lottery protected 1st, those are the best futures we gave up, while keeping Chabot, White, Brown, Batherson, Formenton, and Chalpik. We don't have endless spots on the team. Realistically I just listed 6 players that look to need roster spaces now and in the near future, and people are complaining because we gave up other futures?

We need to start trading the quantity of assets we have to better the spots we have. People around here like to hoard picks and prospects, which is what we have done, through excellent drafting. At some point though, since not all of your quality assets can make your team, you have to trade some top get better in areas. This is what PD has done.

Bowers and the lottery protected 1st were traded to upgrade from Turris to Duchene. That is a significant upgrade from where I'm sitting, if you don't see it that way then I can understand why you see it as a waste. That's not me looking with rose coloured glasses, that you and me disagreeing about how good Duchene is compared to Turris. I have a feeling that you'll be moving closer to my view sooner than later.

Our playoff run rentals were bought with later picks and Dahlen. Yes it would have been nice to keep the prospect, but in the end it was a nice secondary prospect traded for a player that scored at a .5ppg down the stretch. Personally I would trade Dahlen for that over and over again.

The real issue is the difference between how I view team success, and how you view it. You have a hundred excuses as to why and how the team could have done all kinds of things differently, and you and others downplay last year's success because we didn't win it all. To you it seems like all moves were a waste because we didn't win the cup. To me the moves were well worth it because the team came within a goal of making the finals. Honestly I could never watch a sport and be a fan under those conditions.

The draft pick is lottery protected, so we're going to get another excellent pick this year, and yet folks still argue that we have mortgaged the future. The reality is that this is a one off bad year, like at least one team has every year. next year's pick will not likely be a lottery pick, but even if it was we need another prospect, ready years away, like a hole in the head. What we need are on roster upgrades, like Duchene over Turris.

The last point that doesn't seem to matter to many folks is how happy the team was that the GM went out and made moves to help them make the playoffs and be successful in them. The prospect and pick fans miss the fact that the guys on the team don't care about that as much as winning now. The guys were in a good spot and wanted to make a run for it. The GM decided to support that and bring in some depth and support AND IT WORKED. You think because they didn't win the cup that it was a failure, but I'd bet money that no-one in the organization thinks that, and definitely not the players. To your futures point, PD did all that without giving up a single top asset. Not one.

I'm not going to wade into the EK trade stuff, so much that goes around this site is rumours and conjecture. That of course is part of what this site is, but I'm not about to include it in my feeling towards management. If an involved party comes out and says something, I'll add it to the fact base. EK plays for us, both sides have indicated that they want him to stay.

There's a lot of stuff you wouldn't do in my place, but then again you wouldn't know what to do if suddenly saw things through my eyes. I feel like a pretty even keel fan who enjoys the Sens. I don't go out my way to make up or believe rumours and speculation, and I try not to get caught up in all of the hindsight, the woulda's, coulda's, and shoulda's. It seems the make me unpopular around here with the most frequent posters, but such is life. I don't need to prove my perspective to you, those who choose to see things the way you do have already cast their die.

Perhaps just understand that some fans view things differently, or take different pleasures from the entertainment. Case in point, last years run was a lucky failure to you, while it was one of my favourite fan experiences that came up a bit short. In truth, this team has given us three excellent stretch drives in the recent past that have been more exciting that almost anything else other teams have had to offer their fan bases. Call me crazy and move on.
 
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danielpalfredsson

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Aug 14, 2013
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People need to not freak out when a rookie with less than a dozen pro games in their entire career against adults old enough to grow a proper beard spends a few months on an AHL roster before immediately being given important minutes in the best league in the world.

You can't use a blanket statement like that. Not all rookies are the same.

If people were freaking out because Guy Boucher wasn't gonna play Gabriel Gagne on our 1st line on opening night, yeah, I'd agree. But both Chabot and White were NHL ready. There is no doubt about it. I don't think many people are suggesting they should have been thrust into the toughest minutes in the league, but White easily could have helped our 3rd and 4th line, while Chabot (if he wasn't meddled with and made to play the right side) could have been a significant asset to either one of our PP units and excelled in sheltered minutes. Basically, what he's doing now to an extent.

Without a doubt, there's a bit of a shiny new toy syndrome that comes with young players and prospects, but I don't think it's fair to write off this particular situation where a coach was clearly in the wrong just based on a blanket statement. It's not like it's that out of the ordinary for top prospects to be able to play in the NHL at the age of 21, we're not talking about 18 year olds fresh out of the draft here.
 
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Tnuoc Alucard

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So your position is that everything an individual says in an interview or press release is the unvarnished truth...

Sure thing sparky.

As I said, you'd have to be intentionally obtuse to believe that Eugene Melnyk is not a MASSIVE problem for this franchise. The evidence is clear and no it does not all make it into interviews...


Until another public statement is issued, I'll take Alfredsson's words for what they are, and until he elaborates on the issue ........ anything and every thing else is speculation.


You can choose to believe that Eugene Melnyk is the biggest "problem" that is being faced by the Ottawa Senators, but most people do not.

They and you are entitled to your opinions.

Most people see problems that affect the Team's inability to attract enough customers to have sellouts each and every game, including Play Off games, as bigger problems, than who the owner is. Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.
 
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Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Until another public statement is issued, I'll take Alfredsson's words for what they are, and until he elaborates on the issue ........ anything and every thing else is speculation.


You can choose to believe that Eugene Melnyk is the biggest "problem" that is being faced by the Ottawa Senators, but most people do not.

They and you are entitled to your opinions.

Most people see problems that affect the Team's inability to attract enough customers to have sellouts each and every game, including Play Off games, as bigger problems, than who the owner is. Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.

Are you going to take Turris and his wife's word too? Or are they dirty liars with grudges against the team?
 

BatherSeason

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Jun 16, 2009
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Most people see problems that affect the Team's inability to attract enough customers to have sellouts each and every game, including Play Off games, as bigger problems, than who the owner is. Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.

When you say "we all", you are referring to yourself, Coladin and JD1, correct? You can't use the phrase "we all" when your are talking about like 2% of the posters on this site.

Also, based on your infinite wisdom, please inform us of what "the biggest one" is.
 

Sensung

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Oct 3, 2017
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Until another public statement is issued, I'll take Alfredsson's words for what they are, and until he elaborates on the issue ........ anything and every thing else is speculation.


You can choose to believe that Eugene Melnyk is the biggest "problem" that is being faced by the Ottawa Senators, but most people do not.

They and you are entitled to your opinions.

Most people see problems that affect the Team's inability to attract enough customers to have sellouts each and every game, including Play Off games, as bigger problems, than who the owner is. Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.

Alfie is a fully embedded member of our community. That means that many people have a chance to speak with him "off the record". If you want to believe that his public statement is the unvarnished truth, then knock yourself out. Unlike you, I'm aware of what actually went on.

Please post evidence to support your contention that Melnyk is not the biggest issue for the majority of Sens fans.

In the meantime, look up #Melnykout...
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Are you going to take Turris and his wife's word too? Or are they dirty liars with grudges against the team?


Her "word" was lol, so I don't know what point you're trying make....

December 13 2017 by HockeyFeed in NHL News
"Everything in the hockey department goes thru me -- not Mr. Melnyk," said Dorion.
Julie responded simply with "lol,"
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
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How is Julie and Kyle telling the truth challenging this poster's sanity? There is plenty of evidence that Melnyk is cheap, and plenty of players have complained about management upon leaving.
I'm with you on this. Every time the vampire gets challenge he cries fake news. I'm making light of that.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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When you say "we all", you are referring to yourself, Coladin and JD1, correct? You can't use the phrase "we all" when your are talking about like 2% of the posters on this site.

Also, based on your infinite wisdom, please inform us of what "the biggest one" is.


My opinion is that the arena location is the biggest issue that is hurting ticket sales.
 

BatherSeason

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Jun 16, 2009
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Most people see problems that affect the Team's inability to attract enough customers to have sellouts each and every game, including Play Off games, as bigger problems, than who the owner is. Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.

You said "MOST" see it this way, that isn't exactly accurate based on this site or based on any Sens fans I talk to. Is it a factor, for sure, but a very minor one. Arena location wasn't a problem 10 years ago, why is it such a big problem now?? Even most current season ticket holders are not renewing based on many factors, arena location is not one of them.
 

Langdon Alger

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Apr 19, 2006
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You said "MOST" see it this way, that isn't exactly accurate based on this site or based on any Sens fans I talk to. Is it a factor, for sure, but a very minor one. Arena location wasn't a problem 10 years ago, why is it such a big problem now?? Even most current season ticket holders are not renewing based on many factors, arena location is not one of them.

If we made the playoffs year after year the building would be full or close to full most nights. A lot of people are unhappy with the direction of the team, unhappy with the owner, unhappy with the current product, so if you live nowhere near the arena, why drive that far and pay a lot of money for tickets, parking, food, drinks etc? Not to mention sit in that parking lot for a long time after the game and take the 417 home while stuck in traffic.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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You said "MOST" see it this way, that isn't exactly accurate based on this site or based on any Sens fans I talk to. Is it a factor, for sure, but a very minor one. Arena location wasn't a problem 10 years ago, why is it such a big problem now?? Even most current season ticket holders are not renewing based on many factors, arena location is not one of them.



The location encompasses a lot of issues, that deter a lot of fans for attending any, or mare games

- long drive/commute for majority of people in National Capital Region
-problems entering and exiting poorly designed parking lot(s)
-high cost of parking
-can't "walk up" on game days, unless you live in the Kanata area
-poorly serviced by Public transit.

Sure, once the team relocated to Kanata, to a brand new building, attendance was high most seasons, but eventually the "shine" wore off and the reasons (listed above) became bigger issues with more fans, and entered into their decision ( to go to games) making process.



IF, as you claim "arena location is not one of them" ...... then just how do you explain the move to a downtown location, in Lebreton Flats?
 

BatherSeason

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The location encompasses a lot of issues, that deter a lot of fans for attending any, or mare games

- long drive/commute for majority of people in National Capital Region
-problems entering and exiting poorly designed parking lot(s)
-high cost of parking
-can't "walk up" on game days, unless you live in the Kanata area
-poorly serviced by Public transit.

Sure, once the team relocated to Kanata, to a brand new building, attendance was high most seasons, but eventually the "shine" wore off and the reasons (listed above) became bigger issues with more fans, and entered into their decision ( to go to games) making process.



IF, as you claim "arena location is not one of them" ...... then just how do you explain the move to a downtown location, in Lebreton Flats?

I never said that arena location wasn't a problem, you stated that it was "the biggest problem" and I disagreed. The downtown arena will help, but it will only be temporary until the organization realizes that part of its job is to keep the fanbase happy and engaged. Treating the fans like crap is the biggest issue here.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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I never said that arena location wasn't a problem, you stated that it was "the biggest problem" and I disagreed. The downtown arena will help, but it will only be temporary until the organization realizes that part of its job is to keep the fanbase happy and engaged. Treating the fans like crap is the biggest issue here.


No, I stated that in my opinion, the location was the biggest problem.
My opinion is that the arena location is the biggest issue that is hurting ticket sales.

BTW, I've never been "treated like crap", and don't know anyone that has.

Could you elaborate, and give us an example of when you were "treated like crap"?
 
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BatherSeason

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Could you elaborate, and give us an example of when you were "treated like carp"?

I will say, I have never been treated like a fish before, so I am not sure how it would feel to be treated like a carp. Ask any season ticket holder you know if renewals have been sent out yet. Also ask those same season ticket holders when they usually receive their renewal packages. Talk to these same people about their season ticket reps and how pleased they are with their ST package. That's a good start. I won't do the work for you, so no quotes, no articles, just a fact finding mission for you.

Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.

Read your statement above. Then I asked what this reason was and you stated the "location of the arena", something that "we all" probably don't completely agree is the biggest reason.

Also, as this is the "Boucher" thread, I won't comment on ownership in here anymore.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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Alternatively, Many of our coaches have been great in their first year or two; our issue may very well be not changing fast enough:

Clouston 63-43-10 in his first 116
MacLean 66-48-16 in his first 130
Cameron 32-15-8 in his first 55
Boucher 44-28-10 in his first 82

Just got to cut bait earlier and we've got a good thing going!

You could add 8-3-5 to Boucher to star this season so 52-31-15 and 11-8 in the playoffs

It's weird, all those coaches started well but somehow lost it after a while.

See this a lot. But where does this come from? I don't see it. I see a guy who seems to quickly alienate players and refuses to budge when things aren't working.

Brilliant doesn't mean that he isn't stubborn and can adapt to the new NHL.
 

bert

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Once I saw the Dorion extension I knew this was coming. Hence why I am refusing to spend a dime on this team. I cant support this.
 
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bert

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Until another public statement is issued, I'll take Alfredsson's words for what they are, and until he elaborates on the issue ........ anything and every thing else is speculation.


You can choose to believe that Eugene Melnyk is the biggest "problem" that is being faced by the Ottawa Senators, but most people do not.

They and you are entitled to your opinions.

Most people see problems that affect the Team's inability to attract enough customers to have sellouts each and every game, including Play Off games, as bigger problems, than who the owner is. Sure he has his share of the blame for putting off some fans from attending games, but he is not the biggest one, and we all know that.

WRONG he is the problem and everyone knows it outside of a few stubborn posters like yourself. Its insane that a fan that watches this team and has seen what has gone on doesn't identify Melnyk is the issue.
 

coladin

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Sep 18, 2009
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WRONG he is the problem and everyone knows it outside of a few stubborn posters like yourself. Its insane that a fan that watches this team and has seen what has gone on doesn't identify Melnyk is the issue.

I find it equally insane that a fan that watches this team will not identify actually hockey issues with the team such as in my particular order:

1. Goaltending
2. defensive coverage
3. lack of secondary scoring
4. confidence issues seemingly all at the same time
5. coaching
6. GM questionable moves
7. injuries and players playing injured or not 100% (Karlsson)

and, wait for it...

8. owner has a big mouth

Feel free to put Melnyk at the top of the list though, his side to side movement and glove hand are failing. Hate him all you want, and by all means stay home until you at 100% satisfied. He is part of the problem, no question. But there are a lot of problems right now.
 
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bert

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I find it equally insane that a fan that watches this team will not identify actually hockey issues with the team such as in my particular order:

1. Goaltending
2. defensive coverage
3. lack of secondary scoring
4. confidence issues seemingly all at the same time
5. coaching
6. GM questionable moves
7. injuries and players playing injured or not 100% (Karlsson)

and, wait for it...

8. owner has a big mouth

Feel free to put Melnyk at the top of the list though, his side to side movement and glove hand are failing. Hate him all you want, and by all means stay home until you at 100% satisfied. He is part of the problem, no question. But there are a lot of problems right now.

Its a trickle down effect from an Owner that medels and wont higher real professionals to do the job. Who do you think hires the GM exactly? If you cant connect these two issues I am not sure what to say. Nickle and diming coach after coach, whos fault is that? Cutting back on hockey ops, scouts etc... Melnyk is the source of the problems, this organization needs an overhaul.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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I will say, I have never been treated like a fish before, so I am not sure how it would feel to be treated like a carp. Ask any season ticket holder you know if renewals have been sent out yet. Also ask those same season ticket holders when they usually receive their renewal packages. Talk to these same people about their season ticket reps and how pleased they are with their ST package. That's a good start. I won't do the work for you, so no quotes, no articles, just a fact finding mission for you.



Read your statement above. Then I asked what this reason was and you stated the "location of the arena", something that "we all" probably don't completely agree is the biggest reason.

Also, as this is the "Boucher" thread, I won't comment on ownership in here anymore.

Just as expected, I asked an easy question, and you can't give an example.

that's a fail.
 
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