Post-Game Talk: Game 9: 10/30 , Anaheim Ducks @ Pittsburgh Penguins - 4pm PT, BSSC

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DavidBL

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When the league enforced this consistently, maybe some would see this. Not just this point but the refereeing across the board is comical for an allegedly “top league”
Pretty sure they changed the rule a number of years ago making the crease no longer off limits. Guys are allowed to be in there as long as they don't hinder the goalie. You'd have to prove that the player did. Usually that means contact imo. Jarry didn't even try to challenge. If he had he likely would have hit Carrick and we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Imo that's on Jarry. And I say this as someone who plays goalie.
 

anezthes

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- Dostál was phenomenal.
- McCaptain – keep it up!
- Great play by Henrique at the end.
- Referee(s), corrupted.

I wonder if Crosby gave his teammates a stern talking-to for touching the puck after the whistle. At one point, they even nudged it in the direction of our goalie!
 

ADHB

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Pretty sure they changed the rule a number of years ago making the crease no longer off limits. Guys are allowed to be in there as long as they don't hinder the goalie. You'd have to prove that the player did. Usually that means contact imo. Jarry didn't even try to challenge. If he had he likely would have hit Carrick and we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Imo that's on Jarry. And I say this as someone who plays goalie.
Yeah I mean if you're going to use the argument that Carrick, even though he didn't initiate contact, hindered the goalie simply by being in the crease, then you'd have to disallow the first goal by PIT, where Guentzel was in the crease screening Gibson. Similarly, you could also say he "prevented the goalie from challenging the shot" by virtue of being in his crease and in front of him. And that would be ridiculous, which is why the refs are given latitude, regardless of what the written rule says. The league even made a point to say something like that years ago, after goaltender interference challenges started, because at first it was being called way too strictly.
 

Leonardo87

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Does Frank call McTavish "Nipples" when he hands him the jacket?

IMG_3683.gif
 

JAHV

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You're right point 3 is the issue. I could be wrong but I don't think it is potentially hinders the goalie. It is did he or didn't he?. If it was potentially they really would have left the rule at the blue pai t being off limits until the puck enters it. To me, the goalie never tries to occupy that space. You're not thinking I can't because guys are there. You react and run into people. Then you have goalie interference, especially when you have video reiew. Jerry didn't attempt to challenge and I doubt it had anything to do with Carrick being there.
According to the rulebook, it doesn't matter.

The goalie must (quote from the rulebook) "have the ability to move freely within his goal crease without being hindered by the actions of an attacking player." Jarry could not on that play because of Carrick's position. It doesn't matter if he tried to occupy that space or not, or if he needed to in order to make a save. He has to "have the ability to move freely." That indicates that potential action matters.

If Carrick were standing in a corner of the crease, away from the play, or if his skate blade were on the very edge of the front of the crease, with clear space between him and Jarry, then it's a more difficult interpretation, but Carrick probably gets the benefit of the doubt, and we've seen that plenty of times before. But Carrick is completely within the crease and part of his body is directly in front of Jarry when the shot was taken. There's no need for interpretation on this one.
 
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JAHV

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Yeah I mean if you're going to use the argument that Carrick, even though he didn't initiate contact, hindered the goalie simply by being in the crease, then you'd have to disallow the first goal by PIT, where Guentzel was in the crease screening Gibson. Similarly, you could also say he "prevented the goalie from challenging the shot" by virtue of being in his crease and in front of him. And that would be ridiculous, which is why the refs are given latitude, regardless of what the written rule says. The league even made a point to say something like that years ago, after goaltender interference challenges started, because at first it was being called way too strictly.
It looks like Guentzel gets his skate out of the crease right as the shot was taken, so he might be okay there. That one's a lot harder to judge without some very precise replay, which is why it wasn't called on the ice. Carrick was fully within the crease. But Cronin might have gotten the call if he'd challenged that Pitt goal, depending on where Guentzel's skate was at the time of the shot.
 

Daz28

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According to the rulebook, it doesn't matter.

The goalie must (quote from the rulebook) "have the ability to move freely within his goal crease without being hindered by the actions of an attacking player." Jarry could not on that play because of Carrick's position. It doesn't matter if he tried to occupy that space or not, or if he needed to in order to make a save. He has to "have the ability to move freely." That indicates that potential action matters.

If Carrick were standing in a corner of the crease, away from the play, or if his skate blade were on the very edge of the front of the crease, with clear space between him and Jarry, then it's a more difficult interpretation, but Carrick probably gets the benefit of the doubt, and we've seen that plenty of times before. But Carrick is completely within the crease and part of his body is directly in front of Jarry when the shot was taken. There's no need for interpretation on this one.
A goalie would never not try to move into a space to make a save, because a forward was standing there, and he'd look like a fool trying to explain it that way. If anything I think Jarry attempted to run into Carrick to make it seem like he was interfering, and failed badly at it.
 

JAHV

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A goalie would never not try to move into a space to make a save, because a forward was standing there, and he'd look like a fool trying to explain it that way. If anything I think Jarry attempted to run into Carrick to make it seem like he was interfering, and failed badly at it.
None of that is relevant. Carrick is fully in the crease, of his own volition, in a place where Jarry could potentially move. That's interference by the rulebook. It doesn't matter where Jarry should move or where he tried to move or where he actually did move. It only matters if Carrick is in a place that hinders Jarry's ability to move freely. He quite clearly was.
 

hessinthe14car

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The goalie DID have the ability to move freely within his goal crease. The goalie moved how he wanted to and he didn't touch Carrick. No contact, so no GI.

If we're calling this GI, that means we're saying we know the goalie wanted to move further out to challenge the shooter but didn't because Carrick was there. That's bs. We aren't mind readers, and we surely can't just take the goalie's word for it after the fact.

We can't call it GI just because Carrick was occupying a space in the crease that the goalie might theoretically want to move into.

There's a clear way to tell if the goalie wasn't freely allowed to move where he intended in the crease: contact.
 

DavidBL

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According to the rulebook, it doesn't matter.

The goalie must (quote from the rulebook) "have the ability to move freely within his goal crease without being hindered by the actions of an attacking player." Jarry could not on that play because of Carrick's position. It doesn't matter if he tried to occupy that space or not, or if he needed to in order to make a save. He has to "have the ability to move freely." That indicates that potential action matters.

If Carrick were standing in a corner of the crease, away from the play, or if his skate blade were on the very edge of the front of the crease, with clear space between him and Jarry, then it's a more difficult interpretation, but Carrick probably gets the benefit of the doubt, and we've seen that plenty of times before. But Carrick is completely within the crease and part of his body is directly in front of Jarry when the shot was taken. There's no need for interpretation on this one.
Id argue that this is not how the rule has been enforced for years. I don't think I have ever seen a goalie interference called with no contact with the goalie. I don't really disagree with what you're saying as rules as written but I do disagree with how it has been enforced. I say that as teams and players need to know how refs interpret the rules in order to adjust much like we have seen with changes to obstruction penalties over the years. To me that play looked like Jarry lost track of the puck and was too slow to react to challenge. Carrick did not affect his ability to stop the puck.
 

Daz28

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None of that is relevant. Carrick is fully in the crease, of his own volition, in a place where Jarry could potentially move. That's interference by the rulebook. It doesn't matter where Jarry should move or where he tried to move or where he actually did move. It only matters if Carrick is in a place that hinders Jarry's ability to move freely. He quite clearly was.
A goalie could "potentially" move ANYWHERE in the crease, so by that standard any goal with a player in the crease would be disallowed. Answer me this: when the puck goes in how many skates does Carrick have standing in blue paint?
 

Daz28

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Id argue that this is not how the rule has been enforced for years. I don't think I have ever seen a goalie interference called with no contact with the goalie. I don't really disagree with what you're saying as rules as written but I do disagree with how it has been enforced. I say that as teams and players need to know how refs interpret the rules in order to adjust much like we have seen with changes to obstruction penalties over the years. To me that play looked like Jarry lost track of the puck and was too slow to react to challenge. Carrick did not affect his ability to stop the puck.
Jarry felt a nudge on his right side, and he thought it was Carrick, when it actually was Karlsson. He tried a little elbow, and it put him out of position. He was trying to make it seem like he was "hindered", when distracted is the right word to use.
 

KelVarnsen

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I'm actually enjoying this discussion so hats off JAHV and everyone weighing in. The fact that this discussion even exists shows the rule is dumb and too open for interpretation. And I understand JAHV's point of view is it is not really up for debate but the fact you have former NHL goalies who are now analysts arguing the play one way or the other, shows it is a poorly written or even understood rule.

So job well done NHL!
 
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JAHV

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Look at the :05 mark, the 0:36 mark, and, most of all, the 0:46 mark of this video.

Not only are Carrick's feet both clearly within the crease, his left skate and leg are directly in front of Jarry's blocker and his right pad. If you don't believe that Carrick in that position meets the definition of "an attacking player" who "hindered" the goalie from "hav[ing] the ability to move freely within the crease," then we can't agree on terms and it doesn't make sense to continue the discussion.

Stop that video at 0:46 and tell me that Jarry can push forward on his right skate without making contact with Carrick. If you can do that honestly, then we'll just agree to disagree. If you can't, you have to agree that Carrick violated the letter of the law as quoted. This is not a skate in the corner of the crease. This is not a guy behind the goalie who doesn't make contact with the goalie and hasn't affected the play. Carrick is clearly in Jarry's way, whether he touches Jarry (or Jarry touches him) or not.

The thing I'm trying to get across is that, on this play, Jarry's actual movements are not relevant according to the rule. It doesn't matter how Jarry moved or tried to move or tried to sell a call or anything. Was Carrick in the crease? Was he hindering Jarry's ability to move? Yes, clearly he was.

If you think the rule is bad, I'm not going to argue with you on that. I think it's far better than the old skate in the crease rule. This one at least allows for some common sense by the officials. But it's not perfect. However, I don't think there's any debate to be had that this play was called correctly according to the rule as written.

Id argue that this is not how the rule has been enforced for years. I don't think I have ever seen a goalie interference called with no contact with the goalie. I don't really disagree with what you're saying as rules as written but I do disagree with how it has been enforced. I say that as teams and players need to know how refs interpret the rules in order to adjust much like we have seen with changes to obstruction penalties over the years. To me that play looked like Jarry lost track of the puck and was too slow to react to challenge. Carrick did not affect his ability to stop the puck.
Here's another example.
 
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JAHV

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I'm actually enjoying this discussion so hats off JAHV and everyone weighing in. The fact that this discussion even exists shows the rule is dumb and too open for interpretation. And I understand JAHV's point of view is it is not really up for debate but the fact you have former NHL goalies who are now analysts arguing the play one way or the other, shows it is a poorly written or even understood rule.

So job well done NHL!
That is the sad part. Fans, writers, broadcasters, apparently even coaches and players don't know the rule. McIndoe is the one who has explained it best in that Athletic piece I linked earlier. Because of that piece, as soon as they showed the replay, I began begging my television screen for Cronin not to challenge. I knew he'd lose.

The rule of thumb: did the offensive player get in the crease on his own? If he did and he's anywhere close to the goalie, chances are very good that the ruling is going to be no goal.
 

DavidBL

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Look at the :05 mark, the 0:36 mark, and, most of all, the 0:46 mark of this video.

Not only are Carrick's feet both clearly within the crease, his left skate and leg are directly in front of Jarry's blocker and his right pad. If you don't believe that Carrick in that position meets the definition of "an attacking player" who "hindered" the goalie from "hav[ing] the ability to move freely within the crease," then we can't agree on terms and it doesn't make sense to continue the discussion.

Stop that video at 0:46 and tell me that Jarry can push forward on his right skate without making contact with Carrick. If you can do that honestly, then we'll just agree to disagree. If you can't, you have to agree that Carrick violated the letter of the law as quoted. This is not a skate in the corner of the crease. This is not a guy behind the goalie who doesn't make contact with the goalie and hasn't affected the play. Carrick is clearly in Jarry's way, whether he touches Jarry (or Jarry touches him) or not.

The thing I'm trying to get across is that, on this play, Jarry's actual movements are not relevant according to the rule. It doesn't matter how Jarry moved or tried to move or tried to sell a call or anything. Was Carrick in the crease? Was he hindering Jarry's ability to move? Yes, clearly he was.

If you think the rule is bad, I'm not going to argue with you on that. I think it's far better than the old skate in the crease rule. This one at least allows for some common sense by the officials. But it's not perfect. However, I don't think there's any debate to be had that this play was called correctly according to the rule as written.


Here's another example.

I am honestly shocked they called that back considering the defenders role in the attacking player being in the crease. I didn't watch the playoffs so I never saw that goal. I will say that in the video there was constant contact between the attacking player and the goalie. I just don't see the contact with Carrick. I do realize the that the rule does state by contact or POSTION. That being said if any player in the crease prevents the goalie from being able to move freely is cause for no goal then they would disallow any goal where an attacking player is in the crease, the crease is just not big enough for a goalie and an attacking player and the goalie being able to "move freely." It used to be more cut and dry. By the strictest application of the rules I agree with you. We just virtually never see it applied this way. Mostly, in my opinion, because the crease is so small that if they player actually did hinder the player we would have seen contact between the 2. IMO, Jarry just played it poorly, got beat and lucked out that Carrick happened to be too far into the crease.
 
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Daz28

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Look at the :05 mark, the 0:36 mark, and, most of all, the 0:46 mark of this video.

Not only are Carrick's feet both clearly within the crease, his left skate and leg are directly in front of Jarry's blocker and his right pad. If you don't believe that Carrick in that position meets the definition of "an attacking player" who "hindered" the goalie from "hav[ing] the ability to move freely within the crease," then we can't agree on terms and it doesn't make sense to continue the discussion.

Stop that video at 0:46 and tell me that Jarry can push forward on his right skate without making contact with Carrick. If you can do that honestly, then we'll just agree to disagree. If you can't, you have to agree that Carrick violated the letter of the law as quoted. This is not a skate in the corner of the crease. This is not a guy behind the goalie who doesn't make contact with the goalie and hasn't affected the play. Carrick is clearly in Jarry's way, whether he touches Jarry (or Jarry touches him) or not.

The thing I'm trying to get across is that, on this play, Jarry's actual movements are not relevant according to the rule. It doesn't matter how Jarry moved or tried to move or tried to sell a call or anything. Was Carrick in the crease? Was he hindering Jarry's ability to move? Yes, clearly he was.

If you think the rule is bad, I'm not going to argue with you on that. I think it's far better than the old skate in the crease rule. This one at least allows for some common sense by the officials. But it's not perfect. However, I don't think there's any debate to be had that this play was called correctly according to the rule as written.


Here's another example.

It's disingenuous to say that at 0:46 that it's Carrick who's hindering his ability to push off with his right skate. That's VERY CLEARLY Karlsson doing that.
 

70sSanO

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That is the sad part. Fans, writers, broadcasters, apparently even coaches and players don't know the rule. McIndoe is the one who has explained it best in that Athletic piece I linked earlier. Because of that piece, as soon as they showed the replay, I began begging my television screen for Cronin not to challenge. I knew he'd lose.

The rule of thumb: did the offensive player get in the crease on his own? If he did and he's anywhere close to the goalie, chances are very good that the ruling is going to be no goal.
Unfortunately the real sad part with your interpretation is,and this is just a guess, half the goals scored with traffic in front of the goalie should be ruled goalie interference.

This entire discussion is not about whether there is technically GI, it is about how inconsistently it is called. The interpretation has never been a goalie can freely move “anywhere” in the crease regardless of the direction of the puck. It has been, if the goalie has been impeded from playing the puck. Which by nature allows the refs to determine how the goalie would play the puck.

Fix the application of the rule and then let’s talk.

John
 

dracom

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GI calls should be for when the goalie is actually interfered with. not this BS, "oh the guy was in the crease so any goal scored just doesn't get to count now". Carrick never interfered with Jarry, Jarry could have stopped that goal had he not moved off the post in the first place. The rules are stupid and falls under the same level of stupid as offside rules are; where a millimeter offsides 30 seconds and multiple changes in possession before a goal is scored can be negated. whatever, we still won.
 

Daz28

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GI calls should be for when the goalie is actually interfered with. not this BS, "oh the guy was in the crease so any goal scored just doesn't get to count now". Carrick never interfered with Jarry, Jarry could have stopped that goal had he not moved off the post in the first place. The rules are stupid and falls under the same level of stupid as offside rules are; where a millimeter offsides 30 seconds and multiple changes in possession before a goal is scored can be negated. whatever, we still won.
That's the main point that everyone who's arguing the call was correct is missing, is that when the ref reviewed it, he should have seen exactly what you described. Jarry, for whatever stupid reason, overplayed to his right on a play from behind the net. It was straight HORRIBLE goaltending that caused that goal. Whatever Carrick was doing in no way impeded or hindered how he would have had to move to stop that puck. Karlsson, on the other hand???? Fwiw, I totally agree with call on the Talbot goal. You could easily see Tuch was in his way from where he was going/wanted to be.
 
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ZEBROA

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He was ok, but the first line wasn’t clicking.
They need more time. And Carlsson playing just now and then will make it take even more time to find the rythm, When this easing in period is over things will probably look better, i hope.
 
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