GDT: Game 7: Columbus at Washington | 10/19 7PM EDT

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Just out of curiosity - those who are preaching infinite patience - how long is too long to wait to make a change such as firing Richards, or swinging a trade? Is it 3 more losses in a row? Two? a split of games on the upcoming homestand? I'm just asking because if this drags on and we go 2-7 or 2-8 to start, I'm not sure many teams have come back from that to make the playoffs. With a guy like Laviolette out there, I'd be inclined to pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

I don't know that I could get on the Laviolette train. I don't what his dynamic might be with a certain former Flyers goalie.

 

[Fro]

the vinny boat has sailed...b/t here and twitter (i'm sure many overlap) its getting tiresome reading ppl thinking he's the savior...CBJBrass's response above is pretty much how i'd word it...its not happening...

 

[pete goegan]

That's a good question....

I'm shocked that this team is 2-5. They've deserved and played better than that record indicates IMO. But...seeing as Richards is a holdover from the old regime, I could see him getting the hook pretty quickly if the wins don't start coming. Maybe even before the end of the month.

I agree.

For the sake of argument CBJBrassard16 turned a "he should have been resigned" into a "lets not sign him now" type of childish lol response. So I will not take your 4 reasons more seriously than your initial response and just lol at it.
Just the fact you compare Jenner and Prospal as same type of players is just rediculous.
We all know what Prospal stands for in attitude on and off the ice and atleast I belive he was a main reason for the change. A change we do see a lack of now. Anything else about him is pure specualtion, except also the fact he was the top producer.

I'm with CBJ16 here - thought the world of what Vinny brought, last year, but I, too, think his time is passed. Jenner does not replace VP's style, he fills his spot on roster and on the ice. I think any roster addition will come via trades. And maybe sooner than we expect.

 

[Jaxs]

I hope this front office can make a decision without waiting 2 months to act on it. We have seen and know the ending to that movie.

 

[major major]

I can produce 4 good reasons right now, top of my head without thinking.

1. Boone Jenner is essentially Vinny Prospal RIGHT NOW with more speed and more physicality. Why take a younger body out of the lineup and replace him with an older guy? Fine, Vinny is a better leader. Yay?

2. Vinny Prospal was really wearing down towards the end of last season and the season before. Part of that was probably the short and packed schedule, but still noted. He produced alot of points in the run, but he was running out of gas. You're in a SPEED conference now, players like Prospal would be walked around by the 4th line pluggers. Not saying he could keep up in the West, but the East is significantly more fast paced and you can see its taken us by surprise in the early goings.

3. Bridges have been burned and it could create a mixed response in the room. No, Vinny hasn't burned bridges with his teammates but I feel he was hurt by Jarmo and JD. Who says he would even want to return? Is it likely he would? Yes, but would it be the same? Doubtful.

4. His leadership was the best thing about him, and its not worth spending the rest or near the rest of our cap money. Before you say send down someone like Prout, Jenner, etc or trade a guy like Wisniewski, that won't happen (save maybe Jenner being sent down if he struggles).

If you want me to keep going, i can. I was a VP fan, but the ship has sailed and he isn't the answer.

Who's writing the season off after three games? What value does he bring to the table that already isn't there other than age? He doesn't have a ring. I get it, he started the culture change, he tells it how it is, and he is highly respected around the league, the players in the dressing room, and the fans. But it isn't going to happen.

Just one clarification: we're down enough players that adding Vinny doesn't mean subtracting Jenner, or any one of quality. That was the situation this summer, but not anymore. If Vinny can't keep up for the whole year, who cares, bench him. What we need is a good veteran attitude in the room and 30 games of scoring until we get Horton.

 

[major major]

Just out of curiosity - those who are preaching infinite patience - how long is too long to wait to make a change such as firing Richards, or swinging a trade? Is it 3 more losses in a row? Two? a split of games on the upcoming homestand? I'm just asking because if this drags on and we go 2-7 or 2-8 to start, I'm not sure many teams have come back from that to make the playoffs. With a guy like Laviolette out there, I'd be inclined to pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

I don't count losses like some formula. I think a few more periods like that third period and you know the players have quit the coach. But a few more losses like the ones against Montreal/Boston/Detroit and I say stay the course.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Don't know how I'm supposed to respond to cbj21's post. I can't help if you're not open to discussion. Oh well.

Just one clarification: we're down enough players that adding Vinny doesn't mean subtracting Jenner, or any one of quality. That was the situation this summer, but not anymore. If Vinny can't keep up for the whole year, who cares, bench him. What we need is a good veteran attitude in the room and 30 games of scoring until we get Horton.

I guess that's possible. But the roster is full right now (Just subtract Craig, Skille and add Calvert, Foligno and eventually Horton). If you don't subtract Jenner who comes out? Jenner is one of very few waiver exempt players. It's better for him to play, NHL or AHL, than for him to be a 4th liner or healthy scratch.

About the benching thing, I don't think he would take too kindly to that. I don't know Prospal well, but all his leadership was while he was PLAYING. Would he take a backseat role and sulk if he was scratched? Would he publicly lobby to be put in the lineup causing a distraction? All things must be considered.

 

[db2011]

I can produce 4 good reasons right now, top of my head without thinking.

1. Boone Jenner is essentially Vinny Prospal RIGHT NOW with more speed and more physicality. Why take a younger body out of the lineup and replace him with an older guy? Fine, Vinny is a better leader. Yay?

2. Vinny Prospal was really wearing down towards the end of last season and the season before. Part of that was probably the short and packed schedule, but still noted. He produced alot of points in the run, but he was running out of gas. You're in a SPEED conference now, players like Prospal would be walked around by the 4th line pluggers. Not saying he could keep up in the West, but the East is significantly more fast paced and you can see its taken us by surprise in the early goings.

3. Bridges have been burned and it could create a mixed response in the room. No, Vinny hasn't burned bridges with his teammates but I feel he was hurt by Jarmo and JD. Who says he would even want to return? Is it likely he would? Yes, but would it be the same? Doubtful.

4. His leadership was the best thing about him, and its not worth spending the rest or near the rest of our cap money. Before you say send down someone like Prout, Jenner, etc or trade a guy like Wisniewski, that won't happen (save maybe Jenner being sent down if he struggles).

If you want me to keep going, i can. I was a VP fan, but the ship has sailed and he isn't the answer.

Who's writing the season off after three games? What value does he bring to the table that already isn't there other than age? He doesn't have a ring. I get it, he started the culture change, he tells it how it is, and he is highly respected around the league, the players in the dressing room, and the fans. But it isn't going to happen.

No I don't want you to keep going. Please stop.

What Vinny brings is he's the guy who points at the scoreboard, and he backs it up. You're "Vinny is a leader. Yay" line sums up what's missing in your list- you're not appreciating the value of intangibles, especially in hockey. Your assessment of the league ("speed") is one-dimensional.

To take it to another sport, the role of Jason Giambi on the Indians this year was vital to them making the playoffs. His performance waned as the year went on and he was used increasingly sparingly, but you never stopped hearing about how important he was on that team. And he hit a storybook pinch-hit home run to win a game that ended up being a monster win in the race. You don't think Vinny has the potential for a goal like that in a stretch run?

To bring it to another sport, how's Chip Kelly doing lighting up the NFL with his speed offense?

This team is starved for offense and Umberger said they "cracked" last night. You think Vinny would crack?

Keep reading the stat sheet and the stopwatch and you miss valuable things that you can't see there. Things this team seems to be missing, too. People are talking about a trade to shake things up but the idea of bringing Vinny back is something to laugh at? Please.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

No I don't want you to keep going. Please stop.

What Vinny brings is he's the guy who points at the scoreboard, and he backs it up. You're "Vinny is a leader. Yay" line sums up what's missing in your list- you're not appreciating the value of intangibles, especially in hockey. Your assessment of the league ("speed") is one-dimensional.

To take it to another sport, the role of Jason Giambi on the Indians this year was vital to them making the playoffs. His performance waned as the year went on and he was used increasingly sparingly, but you never stopped hearing about how important he was on that team. And he hit a storybook pinch-hit home run to win a game that ended up being a monster win in the race. You don't think Vinny has the potential for a goal like that in a stretch run?

To bring it to another sport, how's Chip Kelly doing lighting up the NFL with his speed offense?

This team is starved for offense and Umberger said they "cracked" last night. You think Vinny would crack?

Keep reading the stat sheet and the stopwatch and you miss valuable things that you can't see there. Things this team seems to be missing, too. People are talking about a trade to shake things up but the idea of bringing Vinny back is something to laugh at? Please.

So all of this is over leadership? We have vets who have bounced around the league and the minors for years, guys who have won cups, and guys who have starred in the league. If you need MORE leadership, then that speaks to the current group and not VP.

Or we could always make a Chimera for Chris Clark and Jurcina like trade, since that helped so much.

 

[FANonymous]

Keep reading the stat sheet and the stopwatch and you miss valuable things that you can't see there. Things this team seems to be missing, too.

Scoring and defense?

We can argue about intangibles all we want, but we are not a team with great tangibles that just needs to put it all together. We need to figure out how to score and how to keep the other team from scoring. If Vinny Prospal is the only way this team can figure out how to do that then we are in much worse shape than we thought.

 

[db2011]

Just out of curiosity - those who are preaching infinite patience - how long is too long to wait to make a change such as firing Richards, or swinging a trade? Is it 3 more losses in a row? Two? a split of games on the upcoming homestand? I'm just asking because if this drags on and we go 2-7 or 2-8 to start, I'm not sure many teams have come back from that to make the playoffs. With a guy like Laviolette out there, I'd be inclined to pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

I don't think anyone's preaching infinite patience, but I for one don't want to see an over reaction. It's dependent on how the team performs in conjunction with final scores. But I do think they need to win a game soon.

What bothers me is that they seem to be reacting to game situations rather than creating them. They haven't had many leads this season

 

[db2011]

Scoring and defense?

We can argue about intangibles all we want, but we are not a team with great tangibles that just needs to put it all together. We need to figure out how to score and how to keep the other team from scoring. If Vinny Prospal is the only way this team can figure out how to do that then we are in much worse shape than we thought.

Composure.

Prior to last night, the team lost games they were in til the end and showed moxie rallying against Montreal. Several one-goal losses. My argument is if you leave hanging a guy who explicitly stated he wanted to be here, who can be credited with a big part in the culture change that was instrumental in how competitive this team was the second half of last season, and who was the leading scorer, then you better have a way to win the kind of close games that this team has been losing. And we don't.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Its not that hard to give away a career minor leaguer if you need to. C'mon Mayor Bee, I have no idea where you're going with this 50 contract thing.

In return for what? No team is going to relinquish a draft pick to get a career AHLer with a two-way contract. They'll make a lateral deal (contract for contract), or maybe a two-for-one (your junk for our junk), which doesn't help a hell of a lot. A couple years ago, Philadelphia had to make a side trade that involved them losing a draft pick in order to clear up a spot.

Look at a team like the Islanders. There's 43 contracts there, 20 of which aren't in the NHL right now. Of those 20, 18 are ELCs. Columbus has 22 contracts not in the NHL (plus 25 on the roster), and 8 of those guys in the AHL are past their ELCs.

Welcome to the club, he does this every single time.

It's relevant, so yes, it will be brought up. There's still five 2012 draft picks to sign.

 

[Dr. Fire]

This is easy.

Bob has not been sharp, and besides a couple games, the team is still goal scoring challenged. With Bob not standing on his head like during last seasons push we are losing those games.

Honestly, he did not look good in Montreal. The two goals he gave up against Boston were quite stoppable.

One of two things needs to happen. The team scores more timely goals or Bob becomes a brick wall again. Or both.

We have scored 15 goals and given up 21.

Nuff said.

 

[major major]

In return for what? No team is going to relinquish a draft pick to get a career AHLer with a two-way contract. They'll make a lateral deal (contract for contract), or maybe a two-for-one (your junk for our junk), which doesn't help a hell of a lot. A couple years ago, Philadelphia had to make a side trade that involved them losing a draft pick in order to clear up a spot.

You're not wrong, its just not important. If you have to trade for nothing do that, and in the rare worst case scenario that you have to give up a minor prospect or 7th rounder, then do that. If a signing makes a lot of sense it should be done, the contract limit can only militate against that at the margins.

Save your intelligence for something more useful, please.

 

[cbj21]

Don't know how I'm supposed to respond to cbj21's post. I can't help if you're not open to discussion. Oh well.

Were you open to discussion with your lol post? I think not.
Obviously the ship has sailed now. But try to reason why he would do a less job than most of the players on the team so far. I don't see it.
Prospal would now be ripping everyone, use them as punshingballs or pointing at them and laughing, or something, whatever it would take to get them going.

 

[FANonymous]

Composure.

Prior to last night, the team lost games they were in til the end and showed moxie rallying against Montreal. Several one-goal losses. My argument is if you leave hanging a guy who explicitly stated he wanted to be here, who can be credited with a big part in the culture change that was instrumental in how competitive this team was the second half of last season, and who was the leading scorer, then you better have a way to win the kind of close games that this team has been losing. And we don't.

Just to be clear, because this is what I'm hearing in this post, you fully believe that if we had Vinny Prospal on the team, we win every game so far with the possible exception of last night? Because that sounds completely insane to me.

If that's NOT what you're saying, then please correct me, and I'd be interested in what would be the problem with the team if they were still losing close games while having Vinny on the roster. Personally, I would probably guess the problems would be goal scoring and defense...

 

[major major]

Just to be clear, because this is what I'm hearing in this post, you fully believe that if we had Vinny Prospal on the team, we win every game so far with the possible exception of last night? Because that sounds completely insane to me.

If that's NOT what you're saying, then please correct me, and I'd be interested in what would be the problem with the team if they were still losing close games while having Vinny on the roster. Personally, I would probably guess the problems would be goal scoring and defense...

I'll help. That's not what he's saying.

You're also presenting him an extreme choice of either believing 1) Vinny helps us and we win all close games. and 2) Vinny helps us but we lose all close games. A more reasonable guess is that he holds a position in between.

 

[pete goegan]

You're not wrong, its just not important. If you have to trade for nothing do that, and in the rare worst case scenario that you have to give up a minor prospect or 7th rounder, then do that. If a signing makes a lot of sense it should be done, the contract limit can only militate against that at the margins.

It would appear that, at the moment, signing Vinny makes more sense to some here than it does to those who have to manage the roster and salary cap. That might change soon, because it's becoming clear that something is needed to shake things up. Maybe Prospal is what's needed, and maybe not. Does he fit under the cap? Is he willing to come back? Is he fit? Is he what Jarmo wants? Is there room on the team for a 39 year old forward who hasn't played since April? It would make a great story if he could return and lead them into the playoffs, but could that be more than just a fairy tale? Questions, I have no answers.

 

[FANonymous]

I'll help. That's not what he's saying.

You're also presenting him an extreme choice of either believing 1) Vinny helps us and we win all close games. and 2) Vinny helps us but we lose all close games. A more reasonable guess is that he holds a position in between.

I never said Vinny helps us and we lose all close games. I merely asked if we are still losing close games while Vinny is here, then what is the magical solution to our problems? You know, since we've already ruled out goal-scoring and defense [and Vinny in that scenario].

 

[db2011]

Just to be clear, because this is what I'm hearing in this post, you fully believe that if we had Vinny Prospal on the team, we win every game so far with the possible exception of last night? Because that sounds completely insane to me.

If that's NOT what you're saying, then please correct me, and I'd be interested in what would be the problem with the team if they were still losing close games while having Vinny on the roster. Personally, I would probably guess the problems would be goal scoring and defense...

I'm saying Vinny brings something the teams seems to be lacking, and that something is important in close games. I don't know what the record would be had he played in the games, but it wouldn't be worse than it is.

You point to solutions that fit any team, in any sport. Score points, but don't give up points... scoring and defense. What would be insane would be to argue against that. But saying that breathing is important to continuing to be alive isn't particularly helpful.

There are lots of obstacles to VP returning and I think the chances of it are slim. But I've maintained throughout that Jarmo should have brought him back because he is a proven asset to the team.

 

[slacketbacker]

Vinny Prospal: I was told by Greg Kirstein (CBJ SVP & General Counsel) that everyone in the organization wanted Prospal back this season, including Prospal. However, the thing that ruined it: his agent's demands were simply not in line with reality. The agent is seen as a real A-hole and even Vinny agreed. A week before training camp, the agent claimed they had several teams interested in Vinny. CBJ's response: show me. Clearly the interest wasn't out there. Sad, I would have loved to see Vinny with a "C" on his chest for his final year in the NHL. (happens often here: Kevin Dineen should have had a C on his chest too).

 

[thebus2288*]

He was our leading scorer pretty much the last 2 years. 5 less points than our 7.8 mil captain. That means he scored more points than anybody else. For a team that's obviously in need of some nice passing and finish I don't understand how you people can say he wouldn't help us. Sure he's slowed down, remember Vyborny? How many odd man rushes have we had where we cant even get a (quality)scoring chance? We can have guys like Mackenzie, Comeau and Umberger fly up and down the ice and dumping pucks everywhere. But if they can't stickhandle, make OR catch a pass, or pick an open corner in the net than whats the point?!? We can have Dubi, Foligno, and Johansen cycle for a minute and a half. But if these guys cant get a puck on net or even get body position to knock in a rebound...whats the point?!?

 

[NotWendell]

Bring back George!

See there? Problem solved!

 

[Crede777]

I never said Vinny helps us and we lose all close games. I merely asked if we are still losing close games while Vinny is here, then what is the magical solution to our problems? You know, since we've already ruled out goal-scoring and defense [and Vinny in that scenario].

Could be our defense. That has had a fairly big change between last year and this year and we don't look as defensively dominant as we were last year. I kind of wish guys could get set partners and we'd have 2 top-pairing guys on the top pairing, 2 middle pairing guys on the middle pairing, and 2 bottom pairing guys on the bottom pairing.

As it is right now, Richards is playing musical partners where everyone (except Murray/Wisniewski) gets a new partner every night. He's also trying to spread the youth around but with 3 very young players (Murray, Prout, Savard) we're just getting 3 pairings that lack experience on one side.