GDT: Game #65: Coyotes @ Blackhawks - 3:00pm (AZ) - Scripps, Coyotes Central

[DustyDangler]

No team can stay at the top forever.

I do not believe unsustainable success is baked into the cake. The good ones will stay towards the top (VGK/McCrimmon, Dallas/Nill) without having to go through an organizational dismantling the way Detroit, has had to do and the way Pittsburgh, Washington and others will have to do.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I do not believe unsustainable success is baked into the cake. The good ones will stay towards the top (VGK/McCrimmon, Dallas/Nill) without having to go through an organizational dismantling the way Detroit, has had to do and the way Pittsburgh, Washington and others will have to do.

The best dynasties - or at least consistently successful teams - do what BA is trying to do here: do a complete teardown/rebuild once, and in the process build enough futures capital to ensure that, even if the team struggles, it won't require another "to the studs" demolition job to recover from it.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Crosby's having an outstanding season, don't think the other two are the problem.

Not saying there's any type of problem with those players. I'm saying that the position Pittsburgh might find itself in a few years is a problem.

The Penguins started the season with the oldest roster in the NHL. They also have the 28th ranked prospect pool. Crosby is 36, Malkin is 37, Letang is 36. Once they retire, Pittsburgh is going to drop far and fast, possibly requiring a long hard rebuild. The cupboards are bare.

 

[Foggy1097]

Not saying there's any type of problem with those players. I'm saying that the position Pittsburgh might find itself in a few years is a problem.

The Penguins started the season with the oldest roster in the NHL. They also have the 28th ranked prospect pool. Crosby is 36, Malkin is 37, Letang is 36. Once they retire, Pittsburgh is going to drop far and fast, possibly requiring a long hard rebuild. The cupboards are bare.

Malkin should have been traded 2-3 years ago. Sid and Letang probably a year after him. They should have never acquired Karlsson. Just complete lack of foresight. When you have legacy players who have won cups like that it’s tough to rip off the band aid, but you have to do it. Get a haul back for them while they still have a few good productive years left in them, and jumpstart the retool of your roster and get a lot younger. “We’ll see you back in a few years for your jersey retirement…” and send them on their way.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Malkin should have been traded 2-3 years ago. Sid and Letang probably a year after him. They should have never acquired Karlsson. Just complete lack of foresight. When you have legacy players who have won cups like that it’s tough to rip off the band aid, but you have to do it. Get a haul back for them while they still have a few good productive years left in them, and jumpstart the retool of your roster and get a lot younger. “We’ll see you back in a few years for your jersey retirement…” and send them on their way.

For sure if they had the cojones to make those trades they could stay at the top for a lot longer and avoid a rebuild altogether. The returns would've been huge. Hard sell to the fans though. They'd rather see these players retire Penguins and end up whining about the rebuild taking too long.

 

[DustyDangler]

The best dynasties - or at least consistently successful teams - do what BA is trying to do here: do a complete teardown/rebuild once, and in the process build enough futures capital to ensure that, even if the team struggles, it won't require another "to the studs" demolition job to recover from it.

Precisely.

Malkin should have been traded 2-3 years ago. Sid and Letang probably a year after him. They should have never acquired Karlsson. Just complete lack of foresight. When you have legacy players who have won cups like that it’s tough to rip off the band aid, but you have to do it. Get a haul back for them while they still have a few good productive years left in them, and jumpstart the retool of your roster and get a lot younger. “We’ll see you back in a few years for your jersey retirement…” and send them on their way.

What every team whoever acquired Karlsson has said. Nothing but regret comes with that player.

 

[Jakey53]

I do not believe unsustainable success is baked into the cake. The good ones will stay towards the top (VGK/McCrimmon, Dallas/Nill) without having to go through an organizational dismantling the way Detroit, has had to do and the way Pittsburgh, Washington and others will have to do.

Just wait.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Not saying there's any type of problem with those players. I'm saying that the position Pittsburgh might find itself in a few years is a problem.

The Penguins started the season with the oldest roster in the NHL. They also have the 28th ranked prospect pool. Crosby is 36, Malkin is 37, Letang is 36. Once they retire, Pittsburgh is going to drop far and fast, possibly requiring a long hard rebuild. The cupboards are bare.

No shit, but I’ll take the four Cups and the notion the rebuild won’t be near as FUBAR as the Coyotes’ for the win, thank you.

For sure if they had the cojones to make those trades they could stay at the top for a lot longer and avoid a rebuild altogether. The returns would've been huge. Hard sell to the fans though. They'd rather see these players retire Penguins and end up whining about the rebuild taking too long.

Pretty certain the overall economics say different, consumer driven economics.

 

[DustyDangler]

*

 

[Kaizen]

No shit, but I’ll take the five Cups and the notion the rebuild won’t be near as FUBAR as the Coyotes’ for the win, thank you.

fixed that for you

 

[Kai Yo T]

No shit, but I’ll take the four Cups and the notion the rebuild won’t be near as FUBAR as the Coyotes’ for the win, thank you.


Pretty certain the overall economics say different, consumer driven economics.

What do you mean "no shit?" I guess I'm confused because you seem to have either completely missed the simple point I made or trying to twist it into something else/bigger. I never even hinted that PIT did anything wrong or should have regrets. All I said was that I think they'lI need to rebuild soon. I feel like you're having a different conversation than I am.

For the record though, their rebuild lasted 4 years. Why was it so abnormally fast? Two 1OA and two 2OA picks in those 4 years. 4 players that stepped into the NHL quickly after being drafted. Wouldn't be fair to compare any other rebuild to theirs and call it FUBAR. They were extremely lucky during theirs and were able to almost completely skip having to develop these players because they're so high end.


By "best for the team" I was focused solely on the product. Don't care to debate which scenario leads to more profit over the long term:

Keeping aging veteran star players that are fan favorites until retirement, basically losing them for nothing, and then needing to go through a painful and expensive rebuild

versus

Trading these players a few years before they retire for younger NHL ready assets and staying competitive for years and years long after these aging star players are gone.

Neither of us know the real answer to a question like this. All I know is which one I prefer.

 

[Jamieh]

I do not believe unsustainable success is baked into the cake. The good ones will stay towards the top (VGK/McCrimmon, Dallas/Nill) without having to go through an organizational dismantling the way Detroit, has had to do and the way Pittsburgh, Washington and others will have to do.

Not sure a 6 year old team is a good example of sustainable success?? And Dallas seems to have quite a few down y3ars with top half of draft picks? I'll take the Pitt and Detroit plan with multiple Cups if I was given the choice.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

fixed that for you

HAHA, thought I might have forgotten one, but too lazy to look up!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

What do you mean "no shit?" I guess I'm confused because you seem to have either completely missed the simple point I made or trying to twist it into something else/bigger. I never even hinted that PIT did anything wrong or should have regrets. All I said was that I think they'lI need to rebuild soon. I feel like you're having a different conversation than I am.

For the record though, their rebuild lasted 4 years. Why was it so abnormally fast? Two 1OA and two 2OA picks in those 4 years. 4 players that stepped into the NHL quickly after being drafted. Wouldn't be fair to compare any other rebuild to theirs and call it FUBAR. They were extremely lucky during theirs and were able to almost completely skip having to develop these players because they're so high end.


By "best for the team" I was focused solely on the product. Don't care to debate which scenario leads to more profit over the long term:

Keeping aging veteran star players that are fan favorites until retirement, basically losing them for nothing, and then needing to go through a painful and expensive rebuild

versus

Trading these players a few years before they retire for younger NHL ready assets and staying competitive for years and years long after these aging star players are gone.

Neither of us know the real answer to a question like this. All I know is which one I prefer.

You stated that the position Pittsburgh might find itself in a few years might be a problem. To that I reply no shit.... pretty obvious, that's how it works.

Better picks, lucky? Excuses are like assholes and the Coyotes seem to have several.

The economics point to the fans enjoying the product. If the fans are enjoying, that is what's best for the team.

The scenario I prefer is the one that gets the job done, not drooling over unknowns like Tyson Nash, who's paid to be a homer. Keep losing, guys want out. Use some of the absurd amount of draft collateral to get some quality players. Stacking good player on good player only works if you know the players are good and the draft is a crap shoot, obviously necessary, but a crap shoot just the same.

 

[Kai Yo T]

You stated that the position Pittsburgh might find itself in a few years might be a problem. To that I reply no shit.... pretty obvious, that's how it works.

Better picks, lucky? Excuses are like assholes and the Coyotes seem to have several.

The economics point to the fans enjoying the product. If the fans are enjoying, that is what's best for the team.

The scenario I prefer is the one that gets the job done, not drooling over unknowns like Tyson Nash, who's paid to be a homer. Keep losing, guys want out. Use some of the absurd amount of draft collateral to get some quality players. Stacking good player on good player only works if you know the players are good and the draft is a crap shoot, obviously necessary, but a crap shoot just the same.

All you had to say was "I'm having a different conversation" lol

 

[Coyotedroppings]

All you had to say was "I'm having a different conversation" lol

You must be, because I just cleared it up.

 

[DustyDangler]

Not sure a 6 year old team is a good example of sustainable success?? And Dallas seems to have quite a few down y3ars with top half of draft picks? I'll take the Pitt and Detroit plan with multiple Cups if I was given the choice.

Dallas has an exceptional mix of older guys, (Pavelski, Seguin, Benn) current guys (Robertson, Hintz, Heiskanen) and future guys (Harley, Stankoven, Johnston). They have a solid pipeline (Bourque, Kyrou), have all their 1sts, and have an incredible track record of drafting and developing even if they are not high round picks. Also, they are one of the teams, like the Coyotes, who have never received a 1OA, or 2OA so no free gifts like the Pens were showered with.

Vegas is just a pure butt kicker and manage assets better than any team in the league. They are not emotionally driven like the Pens, Sharks, & Capitals have been and will not hang on to players longer than they should.

Both are examples of elite organizations and are managing their teams in a way that makes them competitive now and in the future and thus, no cause to believe they will have to tear down and start all over in the future.

 

[Kai Yo T]

You must be, because I just cleared it up.

I came off a little snarky. Loved it, but it wasn't the right thing to do lol. (I'm only offering this half-assed apology though)

 

[Jamieh]

Dallas has an exceptional mix of older guys, (Pavelski, Seguin, Benn) current guys (Robertson, Hintz, Heiskanen) and future guys (Harley, Stankoven, Johnston). They have a solid pipeline (Bourque, Kryou), have all their 1sts, and have an incredible track record of drafting and developing even if they are not high round picks. Also, they are one of the teams, like the Coyotes, who have never received a 1OA, or 2OA so no free gifts like the Pens were showered with.

Vegas is just a pure butt kicker and manage assets better than any team in the league. They are not emotionally driven like the Pens, Sharks, & Capitals have been and will not hang on to players longer than they should.

Both are examples of elite organizations and are managing their teams in a way that makes them competitive now and in the future and thus, no cause to believe they will have to tear down and start all over in the future.

Yet the Wings, Hawks, and Pens have trophy cases full and Dallas has a singular Cup???

 

[DustyDangler]

Yet the Wings, Hawks, and Pens have trophy cases full and Dallas has a singular Cup???

The topic is sustainable success.

Dallas with the one cup but they are still competing, currently leading a division that has Wpg, & Col in it and are a legit candidate for going all the way.

Wings were successful pre-cap. Holland wrecked the team on his way out forcing the organization to go slash and burn. The last time they won a playoff round was over a decade ago, they are going to miss the playoffs this year for the 8th year in a row and are not likely to be an SC contender for many years to come.

The Blackhawks received the Kane gift and constructed some nice teams before Bowman wrecked the team on his way out and then they had to go slash and burn. They have not won a playoff round in 9 years have missed the playoffs for the past 4 years and be an additional 3-5 years before they are relevant again.

Penguins were lavished with NHL draft process riches, hit their peak 7 years ago and have won one playoff round since. They are just beginning to flirt with the idea of a rebuild and likely will not be relevant again for another 5-10 years.

Wings, Hawks and Pens are the point. Blowing your wad, winning for a time and then dropping to the bottom for a decade is not how it should roll and I believe it is possible to avoid these circumstances with the right leadership who concerns themselves not merely with immediate success but also future success.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Yet the Wings, Hawks, and Pens have trophy cases full and Dallas has a singular Cup???

This is true, but I'd take (in whole) every Dallas team over the Yotes, since our original fateful days.

The topic is sustainable success.

Dallas with the one cup but they are still competing, currently leading a division that has Wpg, & Col in it and are a legit candidate for going all the way.

Wings were successful pre-cap. Holland wrecked the team on his way out forcing the organization to go slash and burn. The last time they won a playoff round was over a decade ago, they are going to miss the playoffs this year for the 8th year in a row and are not likely to be an SC contender for many years to come.

The Blackhawks received the Kane gift and constructed some nice teams before Bowman wrecked the team on his way out and then they had to go slash and burn. They have not won a playoff round in 9 years have missed the playoffs for the past 4 years and be an additional 3-5 years before they are relevant again.

Penguins were lavished with NHL draft process riches, hit their peak 7 years ago and have won one playoff round since. They are just beginning to flirt with the idea of a rebuild and likely will not be relevant again for another 5-10 years.

Wings, Hawks and Pens are the point. Blowing your wad, winning for a time and then dropping to the bottom for a decade is not how it should roll and I believe it is possible to avoid these circumstances with the right leadership who concerns themselves not merely with immediate success but also future success.

The parallels between Dallas and us are uncanny. Both arrived at their new respective homes with good rosters, one was managed well and then there is us. So glad I was in the Central Plains and a Dallas fan for many years, now I wish like hell that I could get my wife to move. LOL

 

[Jamieh]

The topic is sustainable success.

Dallas with the one cup but they are still competing, currently leading a division that has Wpg, & Col in it and are a legit candidate for going all the way.

Wings were successful pre-cap. Holland wrecked the team on his way out forcing the organization to go slash and burn. The last time they won a playoff round was over a decade ago, they are going to miss the playoffs this year for the 8th year in a row and are not likely to be an SC contender for many years to come.

The Blackhawks received the Kane gift and constructed some nice teams before Bowman wrecked the team on his way out and then they had to go slash and burn. They have not won a playoff round in 9 years have missed the playoffs for the past 4 years and be an additional 3-5 years before they are relevant again.

Penguins were lavished with NHL draft process riches, hit their peak 7 years ago and have won one playoff round since. They are just beginning to flirt with the idea of a rebuild and likely will not be relevant again for another 5-10 years.

Wings, Hawks and Pens are the point. Blowing your wad, winning for a time and then dropping to the bottom for a decade is not how it should roll and I believe it is possible to avoid these circumstances with the right leadership who concerns themselves not merely with immediate success but also future success.

Seems like revisionist history when Dallas barely made playoffs for a decade before 2019? So you want to ignore Detroit making playoffs 23 years straight with a number of Cups and Pittsburgh being a contender for 15 years with 3 Cups but suddenly it's only present streaks that count. As sure as i stand here Vegas and Dallas will both have a period where they bottom out.....it's just how the League works.

This is true, but I'd take (in whole) every Dallas team over the Yotes, since our original fateful days.

The parallels between Dallas and us are uncanny. Both arrived at their new respective homes with good rosters, one was managed well and then there is us. So glad I was in the Central Plains and a Dallas fan for many years, now I wish like hell that I could get my wife to move. LOL

Comparing to Coyotes isn't really fair!!!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Comparing to Coyotes isn't really fair!!!

Did you forget the sarcasm emoji?

 

[Jamieh]

Did you forget the sarcasm emoji?

You didn't have one and mine didn't really need one it was so obvious.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You didn't have one and mine didn't really need one it was so obvious.

Well, perhaps someone will enlighten me with excuses.