GDT: Game 34: Avs vs Flames | 7 PM MT | December 27, 2016 | Jost Starts at 6

[RockLobster]

Others like people in the know or other hardcore fans?

If that was in fact a pure Sakic move, my perception of Joes (and partly Patricks) actions will actually change a bit.

People in the know.

 

[Avs_19]

Another really bad performance. Pickard was the only reason it was somewhat close about half way through the game. A lot of bad bounces but the the Avs didn't really deserve to have any go their way.

I almost can't believe how poor this PP is. We often complain about the usage of certain players on the PP (Iginla, Comeau, Beauchemin, etc) but how about that 5 on 3? The 5 best offensive players on the ice the entire time and they get you nothing. Seeing Duchene and Barrie at the point sending these weak wristers off bodies or wide of the net was infuriating.

Only 48 games to go.

 

[JoemAvs]

Another really bad performance. Pickard was the only reason it was somewhat close about half way through the game. A lot of bad bounces but the the Avs didn't really deserve to have any go their way.

I almost can't believe how poor this PP is. We often complain about the usage of certain players on the PP (Iginla, Comeau, Beauchemin, etc) but how about that 5 on 3? The 5 best offensive players on the ice the entire time and they get you nothing. Seeing Duchene and Barrie at the point sending these weak wristers off bodies or wide of the net was infuriating.

Only 48 games to go.

Makes you appreciate the shortenend lockout season .

We only had to endure 48 games of suckage to get MacKinnon.

Now we will have to endure 48 more (ugh) games of suckage to maybe get Patrick or Hischier (big maybe).

 

[Foppa2118]

It's amazing that the same people are still finding ways to blame Roy after seeing the team do profoundly worse, not better, after his departure.

This argument that this years team is still his fault, because he helped build the team, just doesn't hold water. What did he help build this year? The only core player he added was MacKinnon. Are people saying they don't want him on the team?

Who else? Iggy and Beauchemin? It's amazing that people just pin Iggy on Roy, simply because he's not playing well. I suppose if he was still putting up 30 goal seasons, it would have been Sakic's signing. No one knows either way, and if anything there's way more evidence to suggest it was Sakic's doing, since he's the one that had a relationship with Iggy.

So that's two guys that maybe were his idea at best, and to me only one because I'd put way more money on Iggy being Sakic's idea.

How the guys that they brought in this year doing? Colborne, Tyutin, Wiercioch, and Goloubef? They helping the team much, or do they look exactly like the kind of crap signings that have got them in this problem in the first place? What does that tell you? Only guy playing well is the guy they took a flyer on in Rene Bourque.

Who else did Roy help build on this team? Soderberg? The guy who had his best season and biggest role under Roy?

How do people feel about Mikko? People want to assume Roy hated Jost because he wasn't big, and only wanted to bring in big skilled players, but no one gives him credit for Mikko being on the team. Can't have it both ways.

How about Grigo? The guy they got at a very cheap price, and looked to finally be figuring out his place in the NHL under Roy. This year he's a disaster.

Maybe Gelinas? The guy he knew nothing about after they traded for him, and surely was management and the pro scouts idea, not Roy's.

How's everyone feel about the vast increase in scouting and their draft picks in the Q? Where do you think that came from?

How does everyone like having Allaire as their first real goaltending coach pretty much ever in Av history, helping their goaltenders and prospects?

What are they missing? A go to matchup center like ROR who Roy wanted to resign?

Honestly, it's amazing the lengths people go to scapegoat Roy for this team's problems.

 

[Yetti090]

It's amazing that the same people are still finding ways to blame Roy after seeing the team do profoundly worse, not better, after his departure.

This argument that this years team is still his fault, because he helped build the team, just doesn't hold water. What did he help build this year? The only core player he added was MacKinnon. Are people saying they don't want him on the team?

Who else? Iggy and Beauchemin? It's amazing that people just pin Iggy on Roy, simply because he's not playing well. I suppose if he was still putting up 30 goal seasons, it would have been Sakic's signing. No one knows either way, and if anything there's way more evidence to suggest it was Sakic's doing, since he's the one that had a relationship with Iggy.

So that's two guys that maybe were his idea at best, and to me only one because I'd put way more money on Iggy being Sakic's idea.

How the guys that they brought in this year doing? Colborne, Tyutin, Wiercioch, and Goloubef? They helping the team much, or do they look exactly like the kind of crap signings that have got them in this problem in the first place? What does that tell you? Only guy playing well is the guy they took a flyer on in Rene Bourque.

Who else did Roy help build on this team? Soderberg? The guy who had his best season and biggest role under Roy?

How do people feel about Mikko? People want to assume Roy hated Jost because he wasn't big, and only wanted to bring in big skilled players, but no one gives him credit for Mikko being on the team. Can't have it both ways.

How about Grigo? The guy they got at a very cheap price, and looked to finally be figuring out his place in the NHL under Roy. This year he's a disaster.

Maybe Gelinas? The guy he knew nothing about after they traded for him, and surely was management and the pro scouts idea, not Roy's.

How's everyone feel about the vast increase in scouting and their draft picks in the Q? Where do you think that came from?

How does everyone like having Allaire as their first real goaltending coach pretty much ever in Av history, helping their goaltenders and prospects?

What are they missing? A go to matchup center like ROR who Roy wanted to resign?

Honestly, it's amazing the lengths people go to scapegoat Roy for this team's problems.

I'll go ahead and agree with you to a point. While 100% or 80% or even 50% of this teams woes are not the fault of Roy, he certainly has A LOT of accountability here. He did a lot of good too, but can't let him off the hook that easily. Not sure if we can definitively say that he had nothing to do with the Gellinas deal, nor can you say that he had a huge part of bringing Mikko to the team. And I think the worst of all is how he left the team. Quitting in the 11th hour of a new season and leaving the Avs no chance to get a "better" head coach when they were all out there in the beginning of the offseason was BS. Maybe this teams looks the same with a guy like Bruce Boudreau or maybe it is better, maybe its worse (not sure how that's possible). Who knows. All I know is that he has plenty of blame on his shoulders but you are correct in saying that he can not be held responsible for all of it.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'll go ahead and agree with you to a point. While 100% or 80% or even 50% of this teams woes are not the fault of Roy, he certainly has A LOT of accountability here. He did a lot of good too, but can't let him off the hook that easily. Not sure if we can definitively say that he had nothing to do with the Gellinas deal, nor can you say that he had a huge part of bringing Mikko to the team. And I think the worst of all is how he left the team. Quitting in the 11th hour of a new season and leaving the Avs no chance to get a "better" head coach when they were all out there in the beginning of the offseason was BS. Maybe this teams looks the same with a guy like Bruce Boudreau or maybe it is better, maybe its worse (not sure how that's possible). Who knows. All I know is that he has plenty of blame on his shoulders but you are correct in saying that he can not be held responsible for all of it.

I'm not saying he had a huge part of bringing in Mikko. I'm saying people can't criticize him (wrongly IMO) for being a size queen or being upset they drafted Jost, and not give him credit for Mikko. You can't have it both ways.

In regard to Gelinas, he's a guy he watched five years prior in junior, but said he hadn't followed him since then. He's a guy he didn't scout at all being in the eastern conference. He would not have brought up his name because he would not have known he was available at all, it would have been Sakic going to him saying "what about Gelinas" and asking his opinion, then the scouts giving theirs, and then Joe and MacFarland making the decision.

Aside from whatever opinion he gave on Gelinas, I really don't see anything in your post to suggest there's much of any evidence for blame being on his shoulders for this years team. Leaving the team the way he did didn't sit well with me at all either, but they very likely would have ended up with Bednar anyway. They had a lot of good options, and went with the one MacFarland had ties to.

 

[Freudian]

The idea that Roy didn't have a big role in building this team the summers of 2013-15 is pure nonsense. Of course he did.

He spoke glowingly about Brad Stuart when he was traded for and extended before playing a single game. Remember he was a first pairing guy, penciled in before he ever played a single game for Avs?

Sakic has as much blame for the current mess but it's also Roy created. Their vision for the team crashed and burned and now we have to hope the last man standing has learned his lessons in rehabilitating the organization.

 

[McMetal]

Of course Roy is not responsible for this season, but let's be careful not to conflate that with the idea that he could have done better. He was the worst coach in the league, let's not let hindsight blind us to that fact now that he's gone.

 

[Yetti090]

I'm not saying he had a huge part of bringing in Mikko. I'm saying people can't criticize him (wrongly IMO) for being a size queen or being upset they drafted Jost, and not give him credit for Mikko. You can't have it both ways.

In regard to Gelinas, he's a guy he watched five years prior in junior, but said he hadn't followed him since then. He's a guy he didn't scout at all being in the eastern conference. He would not have brought up his name because he would not have known he was available at all, it would have been Sakic going to him saying "what about Gelinas" and asking his opinion, then the scouts giving theirs, and then Joe and MacFarland making the decision.

Aside from whatever opinion he gave on Gelinas, I really don't see anything in your post to suggest there's much of any evidence for blame being on his shoulders for this years team. Leaving the team the way he did didn't sit well with me at all either, but they very likely would have ended up with Bednar anyway. They had a lot of good options, and went with the one MacFarland had ties to.

Jost has grown 1inch and gained 6lbs last I read, so he is basically huge now hahahaha

Look I agree with you overall. He cannot be the primary scapegoat for this. All I was saying is that he has blame to share. Look we can't say definitively what role he had in each signing or trade, but I think we can agree that he did have a say in them. As well, you could call into question that he had a lot of influence of the trade of ROR which is not looking too great at the moment (might change depending on what zad develops into and what Compher can bring up here). Either way, not trying to start a fight, rather just wanted to put in that he does have blame to share for the state of this team while it is not most.

 

[henchman21]

Of course Roy is not responsible for this season, but let's be careful not to conflate that with the idea that he could have done better. He was the worst coach in the league, let's not let hindsight blind us to that fact now that he's gone.

That is hyperbole... he wasn't. People liked to claim that, but that claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny. This roster on paper is at least equal, and they are a much worse team. Say what you will, Roy kept the team in the race.

 

[ABasin]

Others like people in the know or other hardcore fans?

If that was in fact a pure Sakic move, my perception of Joes (and partly Patricks) actions will actually change a bit.

There's no way to know.

I don't really see how anyone can separate the responsibility of Roy and Sakic when it comes to the three previous seasons. Clearly Roy had some say in personnel decisions early on, and of course Sakic is the GM. Which ones were which, re: Sakic/Roy? Who knows.

What's more clear to me is that neither guy could really accurately assess their roster. At least until this past August, when Roy did.

 

[McMetal]

That is hyperbole... he wasn't. People liked to claim that, but that claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny. This roster on paper is at least equal, and they are a much worse team. Say what you will, Roy kept the team in the race.

Can you name a worse one last season?

 

[Foppa2118]

Can you name a worse one last season?

You've already stated your opinion of Roy being the worst coach in the NHL as a matter of fact. Something which is nearly impossible to measure. Especially by fans.

Any name brought up as an alternative isn't going to out rank him because we're using your opinion as the measuring stick.

 

[henchman21]

Can you name a worse one last season?

Hartley, Desjardins, Maurice (I know people like him, but he has just horrible results with a good team), Bylsma, Cameron, Capuano, and Johnston off the top of my head.

 

[avsfan09]

That is hyperbole... he wasn't. People liked to claim that, but that claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny. This roster on paper is at least equal, and they are a much worse team. Say what you will, Roy kept the team in the race.

He was definitely good at the mental aspect of the game but he struggled with making the right adjustments and strategy. I would say he was elite in one area as a coach and awful in another. If he had an X's and O's guy who he trusted and could work with I think he could still be effective. He's certainly driven.

 

[henchman21]

He was definitely good at the mental aspect of the game but he struggled with making the right adjustments and strategy. I would say he was elite in one area as a coach and awful in another. If he had an X's and O's guy who he trusted and could work with I think he could still be effective. He's certainly driven.

I think his adjustments and strategy have been proven to be okay. Most players that are on this team that were here last year played better under Roy. Roy did a pretty good job at adapting the strategy to the personnel at hand IMO. It wasn't perfect by any stretch, and I think Roy should have been a bit more rigid... but Roy really did try to get his players in the best position to play well.

I do agree that if you give Roy a couple really good assistants, I think he'd work pretty well in the NHL and those assistants should be good at the scheme side. I think we will see him in the NHL again someday.

 

[ABasin]

I think his adjustments and strategy have been proven to be okay. Most players that are on this team that were here last year played better under Roy. Roy did a pretty good job at adapting the strategy to the personnel at hand IMO. It wasn't perfect by any stretch, and I think Roy should have been a bit more rigid... but Roy really did try to get his players in the best position to play well.

I do agree that if you give Roy a couple really good assistants, I think he'd work pretty well in the NHL and those assistants should be good at the scheme side. I think we will see him in the NHL again someday.

Roy did some things well, other things not so well. He was nowhere near the top coaches in the NHL, but he wasn't skimming the bottom either. In the end, I'm hard pressed to think of any NHL coach who would have had success with the blueline Roy had.

I agree that he'll get another shot.

 

[henchman21]

Roy did some things well, other things not so well. He was nowhere near the top coaches in the NHL, but he wasn't skimming the bottom either. In the end, I'm hard pressed to think of any NHL coach who would have had success with the blueline Roy had.

I agree that he'll get another shot.

Agree with all of this.

 

[RockLobster]

The idea that Roy didn't have a big role in building this team the summers of 2013-15 is pure nonsense. Of course he did.

He spoke glowingly about Brad Stuart when he was traded for and extended before playing a single game. Remember he was a first pairing guy, penciled in before he ever played a single game for Avs?

Sakic has as much blame for the current mess but it's also Roy created. Their vision for the team crashed and burned and now we have to hope the last man standing has learned his lessons in rehabilitating the organization.

You find it strange a head coach "spoke glowingly" about a recently acquired player?

Stuart was a Sakic move, and Roy, as the head coach, dealt with the media regarding that move. It's no surprise he'd speak positively about him after he team just acquired him.

 

[Goulet17]

You find it strange a head coach "spoke glowingly" about a recently acquired player?

Stuart was a Sakic move, and Roy, as the head coach, dealt with the media regarding that move. It's no surprise he'd speak positively about him after he team just acquired him.

How do you know that Stuart was a Sakic move and that Roy did not play a part in that move?

 

[Ivan13]

That is hyperbole... he wasn't. People liked to claim that, but that claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny. This roster on paper is at least equal, and they are a much worse team. Say what you will, Roy kept the team in the race.

At least equal?

Yeah, I don't agree with that one bit. EJ missed significant time, so did Landeskog and Duchene, time has caught up with Beauchemin etc. Not to mention that Bednar had virtually no time in the offseason to prepare.

 

[DanishAvsfan]

You find it strange a head coach "spoke glowingly" about a recently acquired player?

Stuart was a Sakic move, and Roy, as the head coach, dealt with the media regarding that move. It's no surprise he'd speak positively about him after he team just acquired him.

I seem to remember a source saying that the Stuart signing was at least partly attributable to Vlasic recommending him to Roy.

 

[tigervixxxen]

At least equal?

Yeah, I don't agree with that one bit. EJ missed significant time, so did Landeskog and Duchene, time has caught up with Beauchemin etc. Not to mention that Bednar had virtually no time in the offseason to prepare.

They really did get a lot worse when EJ went down

I seem to remember a source saying that the Stuart signing was at least partly attributable to Vlasic recommending him to Roy.

I remember that too

 

[Freudian]

You find it strange a head coach "spoke glowingly" about a recently acquired player?

Stuart was a Sakic move, and Roy, as the head coach, dealt with the media regarding that move. It's no surprise he'd speak positively about him after he team just acquired him.

If you are suggesting that Sakic, over the head of Roy, in the first months of their co-GMing went out and traded for a player and Roy just had to accept it and pretend he liked the player publicly your Roy bias has made you lose any sight of what is reasonable.

Stuart was traded for because Roy wanted him and Sakic wanted him. It's possible that later on when Stuart turned out to be useless Roy (or more likely Roy supporters in the local bloggosphere who now pretend they are Avs insiders) didn't want to own it, but there is zero chance he wasn't heavily involved. He demanded to be VP of hockey ops for that very reason.

 

[RockLobster]

If you are suggesting that Sakic, over the head of Roy, in the first months of their co-GMing went out and traded for a player and Roy just had to accept it and pretend he liked the player publicly your Roy bias has made you lose any sight of what is reasonable.

Stuart was traded for because Roy wanted him and Sakic wanted him. It's possible that later on when Stuart turned out to be useless Roy (or more likely Roy supporters in the local bloggosphere who now pretend they are Avs insiders) didn't want to own it, but there is zero chance he wasn't heavily involved. He demanded to be VP of hockey ops for that very reason.

If you're surprised that a head coach spoke positively about a recently acquired player, then your anti-Roy bias has caused you to lose sight on what is reasonable (but then again, blaming this current season on him already did that).

On the topic of Stuart, you are just wrong on this one. But it's cool, you just want to continue pissing on Roy even though he's gone (same as several others).

But Brad Stuart was a Sakic move, in the way that Beauchemin and Gelinas were more influenced by Roy (but still had to be completed by Sakic). Was Roy "surprised" by it? Probably not, and I never said he was, but he wasn't anywhere near his first (or second, or third, or fourth, etc) choice on how to address and fix the Defense issue that was mightily exposed the year before.