GDT: Game 34: Avs vs Flames | 7 PM MT | December 27, 2016 | Jost Starts at 6

[Hesher]

Well, we have some apt sayings in our language for this, dont we? About poor and boiling over the pot... or toilet falling

We sure do The toilet one was the first one that came to my mind when the fourth goal went in

 

[Ivan13]

Until he fell apart.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Beauch also played well under Roy.

Are you really going to say there's nothing to old age catching up to him.

The team might have been slightly better if Roy had made his moves but it still would be going nowhere. Perpetual mediocrity is what he created.

 

[RockLobster]

Are you really going to say there's nothing to old age catching up to him.

The team might have been slightly better if Roy had made his moves but it still would be going nowhere. Perpetual mediocrity is what he created.

Yeah, I call BS on that. No way to know if they'd be "going nowhere" or if they'd actually be icing a more balanced lineup and producing better results.

 

[Freudian]

Beauch also played well under Roy.

Roy got the half good season Beauchemin had left in him. Now he's someone else's problem.

I don't blame Hejduk's or Foote's decline on Sacco. It's just time doing time stuff.

 

[JoemAvs]

Roy left us this tirefire behind.

Iggy and Beauch were clearly "win-now-pay-later" moves that he orchestrated (didn't Beauchs agent basically come out and say that Roy was the one he was dealing with?).


Roy got the best out of them and Bednar is suffering the consequences.

Blame Bednar for Soderberg, Barrie or Colborne (although the guys are doing their part) but I laugh at everyone who tells me with a straight face that Patrick Roy would have lead this team anywhere this season.


Roy had one great fluke season and it went downhill after that.
He was incredibly lucky healthwise last season. Once the injuries finally started at the end of the season, the team fell apart.

He also played Beauch 25+ minutes/game last year. Is anyone really surprised that the guy is done?

This tirefire is on Roy and on Sakic. But it looks like Joe atleast saw the light before it was too late and prevented Roy from completely burning this to the ground.

I am not a fan of GM Sakic but for that I will always give him credit.

 

[henchman21]

Are you really going to say there's nothing to old age catching up to him.

The team might have been slightly better if Roy had made his moves but it still would be going nowhere. Perpetual mediocrity is what he created.

Old age has something to do with it... usage and putting Beauch in better positions to succeed have more to do with it. Players don't normally just go from being passable 2/3s to complete tirefires in less than a season. Bednar isn't adapting to what Beauch can still do and that is making the dropoff much worse.

I disagree with that statement. There were some opportunities to get better now and moving forward. I'm not sure the team would be much better than 8-10 in the West, but it wouldn't have been at the bottom and the future wouldn't look worse.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Roy left us this tirefire behind.

Iggy and Beauch were clearly "win-now-pay-later" moves that he orchestrated (didn't Beauchs agent basically come out and say that Roy was the one he was dealing with?).


Roy got the best out of them and Bednar is suffering the consequences.

Blame Bednar for Soderberg, Barrie or Colborne (although the guys are doing their part) but I laugh at everyone who tells me with a straight face that Patrick Roy would have lead this team anywhere this season.


Roy had one great fluke season and it went downhill after that.
He was incredibly lucky healthwise last season. Once the injuries finally started at the end of the season, the team fell apart.

He also played Beauch 25+ minutes/game last year. Is anyone really surprised that the guy is done?

This tirefire is on Roy and on Sakic. But it looks like Joe atleast saw the light before it was too late and prevented Roy from completely burning this to the ground.

I am not a fan of GM Sakic but for that I will always give him credit.

Not at all. The signs were pointing that way close to the all -star break. Francois was good in the first half of last season and then Roy drove him off the cliff and put cinder blocks in the trunk.

 

[RockLobster]

Roy left us this tirefire behind.

Iggy and Beauch were clearly "win-now-pay-later" moves that he orchestrated (didn't Beauchs agent basically come out and say that Roy was the one he was dealing with?).


Roy got the best out of them and Bednar is suffering the consequences.

Blame Bednar for Soderberg, Barrie or Colborne (although the guys are doing their part) but I laugh at everyone who tells me with a straight face that Patrick Roy would have lead this team anywhere this season.


Roy had one great fluke season and it went downhill after that.
He was incredibly lucky healthwise last season. Once the injuries finally started at the end of the season, the team fell apart.

He also played Beauch 25+ minutes/game last year. Is anyone really surprised that the guy is done?

This tirefire is on Roy and on Sakic. But it looks like Joe atleast saw the light before it was too late and prevented Roy from completely burning this to the ground.

I am not a fan of GM Sakic but for that I will always give him credit.

What a hilarious post, covered in anti-Roy bias taken to extremist levels, which destroys its credibility.

But it's fine, you're in a place that hated him as a coach (and I'd say SOME of that was warranted, he needed to perform better this season, had he stuck around), that wants to lay every bad thing at his feet. So you'll have plenty of people to reinforce your opinion.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Old age has something to do with it... usage and putting Beauch in better positions to succeed have more to do with it. Players don't normally just go from being passable 2/3s to complete tirefires in less than a season. Bednar isn't adapting to what Beauch can still do and that is making the dropoff much worse.

I disagree with that statement. There were some opportunities to get better now and moving forward. I'm not sure the team would be much better than 8-10 in the West, but it wouldn't have been at the bottom and the future wouldn't look worse.

I have zero interest in being a 8-10 team. Would last night have been more fun, sure. But that's still not going anywhere.

 

[henchman21]

I have zero interest in being a 8-10 team

Long-term, neither do I. IMO this would have been a season that was building for a much better 17-18. Pieces would have been in place.

 

[JoemAvs]

What a hilarious post, covered in anti-Roy bias taken to extremist levels, which destroys its credibility.

But it's fine, you're in a place that hated him as a coach (and I'd say SOME of that was warranted, he needed to perform better this season, had he stuck around), that wants to lay every bad thing at his feet. So you'll have plenty of people to reinforce your opinion.

I think we both know (for a while now) that we are on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to coach Roy .

I might be a bit too critical of Roy the same way you are IMO too fond of him.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.


I just refuse to accept the narrative that had we kept Roy and let him do his thing, things would be better now.

I actually agree that we might be more competitive under Roy this season (but still not close to the playoffs probably) but the main difference would be that we would be paying a heavy price for it 2-3 years from now.

 

[GirardIsStupid]

There was no source to that. So let's not spread empty rumors.

Which is why I was asking you guys if there was any truth to that.

 

[RockLobster]

I think we both know (for a while now) that we are on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to coach Roy .

I might be a bit too critical of Roy the same way you are IMO too fond of him.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.


I just refuse to accept the narrative that had we kept Roy and let him do his thing, things would be better now.

I actually agree that we might be more competitive under Roy this season (but still not close to the playoffs probably) but the main difference would be that we would be paying a heavy price for it 2-3 years from now.

But there's a difference in our opposite ends of the spectrum.

I acknowledge that he needed to perform better this season, had he stuck around; you continue to blame him for this season and he's not even here. For a long time I've been saying that Sakic needed to shoulder his share of the blame as well, since he's the GM and had final say over everything, but up until this season you, and people who hated Roy as the coach, were all-too-eager to lay the roster construction at his feet as well.

Well, this past offseason Roy wanted to drastically change the team, in my opinion for the better, and Sakic didn't want to (or didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger on those trades). Some of those pieces moving out would've likely caused a "division" amongst fans, but I firmly believe that the moves Roy was so eager to make would've left the team with a nice balance for this season, and beyond. So no, he wouldn't have left them barren in the next 2-3 years.

 

[JoemAvs]

But there's a difference in our opposite ends of the spectrum.

I acknowledge that he needed to perform better this season, had he stuck around; you continue to blame him for this season and he's not even here. For a long time I've been saying that Sakic needed to shoulder his share of the blame as well, since he's the GM and had final say over everything, but up until this season you, and people who hated Roy as the coach, were all-too-eager to lay the roster construction at his feet as well.

Well, this past offseason Roy wanted to drastically change the team, in my opinion for the better, and Sakic didn't want to (or didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger on those trades). Some of those pieces moving out would've likely caused a "division" amongst fans, but I firmly believe that the moves Roy was so eager to make would've left the team with a nice balance for this season, and beyond. So no, he wouldn't have left them barren in the next 2-3 years.

Nah I was calling for Joes head for quite a bit as well for the moves they made together.
But yeah. Not giving into Roy restored some credit IMO.

And yes I always felt that the win-now at all cost attitude was more Patrick Roy than Joe Sakic. And most of the interviews I heard gave me the impression that Patrick had a major say when it comes to the direction of the team.

I mean this season is a result of a few years of terrible decisions by our front office ( Joe and Patrick included) which led to a conflict between the two that ended with Patrick bolting and Bednar having to basically clean up the mess of a team that is clearly not suited to his coaching style and not very good in the first place.

It is fine that you believe that Roy would have turned this around if given free reigns. That is your opinion.

Mine differs from that. I don't have any real confidence in this management group as a whole to "win" franchise changing trades right now.
I think Roy would maybe have improved us a bit in the shortterm but like with Iggy/Beauch it probably would have come at the cost of the future.

Iggy, Beauch, Stuart, Mitchell, etc. would all have been here under Roy as well. So I don't think that any coach could have really turned this mess around this season in the first place. Trying this by agressively shaking up the core in a volatile market IMO would have ended in a disaster.

 

[DenverBoone]

With two goals yesterday, Landeskog has a measly six on the year. He is irrelevant out there. What type of defenseman would he bring back in a trade?

 

[RockLobster]

Nah I was calling for Joes head for quite a bit as well for the moves they made together.
But yeah. Not giving into Roy restored some credit IMO.

And yes I always felt that the win-now at all cost attitude was more Patrick Roy than Joe Sakic. And most of the interviews I heard gave me the impression that Patrick had a major say when it comes to the direction of the team.

I mean this season is a result of a few years of terrible decisions by our front office ( Joe and Patrick included) which led to a conflict between the two that ended with Patrick bolting and Bednar having to basically clean up the mess of a team that is clearly not suited to his coaching style and not very good in the first place.

It is fine that you believe that Roy would have turned this around if given free reigns. That is your opinion.

Mine differs from that. I don't have any real confidence in this management group as a whole to "win" franchise changing trades right now.
I think Roy would maybe have improved us a bit in the shortterm but like with Iggy/Beauch it probably would have come at the cost of the future.

Iggy, Beauch, Stuart, Mitchell, etc. would all have been here under Roy as well. So I don't think that any coach could have really turned this mess around this season in the first place. Trying this by agressively shaking up the core in a volatile market IMO would have ended in a disaster.

I can confidently say that Stuart would NOT have been here if Roy were Coach and GM (unsure on Iggy and Mitchell, but yeah Beauch would've been).

Bednar is not adapting to certain players or finding ways to get them going--that's something a coach has to do. Roy had his faults as a coach (for one, he certainly seemed to prefer sacrificing defense for offense--until Z and Bigras were ready to be full-time NHL players), and Bednar does as well--that's one of them.

 

[JoemAvs]

I can confidently say that Stuart would NOT have been here if Roy were Coach and GM (unsure on Iggy and Mitchell, but yeah Beauch would've been).

I was basically talking about the contract of Stuart clogging up our capspace but yeah that one is on me.

You are right. Stuart in his physical form would not have been here.

 

[RockLobster]

I was basically talking about the contract of Stuart clogging up our capspace but yeah that one is on me.

You are right. Stuart in his physical form would not have been here.

No, I mean the Stuart Trade, and subsequent extension, wouldn't have happened if Roy were Coach and GM.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

No, I mean the Stuart Trade, and subsequent extension, wouldn't have happened if Roy were Coach and GM.

What gives you that feeling? I feel like a lot of the moves were very influenced by Roy and his wanting to win now.

 

[JoemAvs]

No, I mean the Stuart Trade, and subsequent extension, wouldn't have happened if Roy were Coach and GM.

That is interesting. Especially because that was early on when the disconnect between Joe and Patrick was not as apparent.

Do you have some "insider" information about that or an educated guess on your part?


Sakic probably faced Stuart a lot more often than Roy did so I could understand the logic of it (from his POV. Still a beyond horrible idea) after striking out in UFA but IMO the move in general embodied more of what I would attribute generally more towards Roy than Sakic.

If that was indeed a Sakic brainchild , I am open to admitting that I was wrong by putting the blemish more on Roy than Sakic (atleast on that pretty big occassion).

 

[RockLobster]

What gives you that feeling? I feel like a lot of the moves were very influenced by Roy and his wanting to win now.

That is interesting. Especially because that was early on when the disconnect between Joe and Patrick was not as apparent.

Do you have some "insider" information about that or an educated guess on your part?


Sakic probably faced Stuart a lot more often than Roy did so I could understand the logic of it (from his POV. Still a beyond horrible idea) after striking out in UFA but IMO the move in general embodied more of what I would attribute generally more towards Roy than Sakic.

If that was indeed a Sakic brainchild , I am open to admitting that I was wrong by putting the blemish more on Roy than Sakic (atleast on that pretty big occassion).

Just what I know from my discussions with others over the last 1+ year(s). Stuart was a Sakic move, Beauchmin and Gelinas were Roy people, where it's a bit more muddied is on players like Iginla (I think that was both a Sakic and Roy decision, spurred by the loss of Stastny).

 

[Drij]

When it was Roy, coaching was the biggest issue. But now that its some guy with even less of a clue and even less of a system, its just the roster? Your second series of statements seem to contradict the first, but I think we can agree that the issues are top to bottom.I'll just disagree with you on the coach because I think that is one of the biggest issues, from ice level - which merely highlights Sakic when seen from above since that was easily his biggest mistake so far, hiring this n00b.

It always been the roaster. New coach and same problems.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Just what I know from my discussions with others over the last 1+ year(s). Stuart was a Sakic move, Beauchmin and Gelinas were Roy people, where it's a bit more muddied is on players like Iginla (I think that was both a Sakic and Roy decision, spurred by the loss of Stastny).

That's interesting, I honestly think Roy in charge would be just as much of a mess as Sakic in charge. We need to identify what we want this team to look like and actually make it happen. I think Bednar and his system can work, but you need to get guys like McGinn and Downie, aggressive forecheckers that can cause some chaos. Bednar's system doesn't work if your defensemen are too slow to retrieve the puck, and your forwards are too slow and soft to get the playing going the other way. Ideally, what we see this off-season is a mass exodus of the slow, soft players and an influx of faster players. The Pens have found a ton of success recently by really focusing on speed, and tenacity.

I think Jost is going to help a ton next season, but we need to add to it.

 

[JoemAvs]

Just what I know from my discussions with others over the last 1+ year(s). Stuart was a Sakic move, Beauchmin and Gelinas were Roy people, where it's a bit more muddied is on players like Iginla (I think that was both a Sakic and Roy decision, spurred by the loss of Stastny).

Others like people in the know or other hardcore fans?

If that was in fact a pure Sakic move, my perception of Joes (and partly Patricks) actions will actually change a bit.