GDT: Game 11: Columbus Blue Jackets vs. Calgary Flames |2/7 7PM EST FSO|

[pete goegan]

I expect Howson to remain after Davidson makes his decisions.

This is because I get the sense that ownership and Davidson view Howson like this:
1. He's not particularly knowledgable about the game of hockey.
2. He's very good at the paperwork aspect of being a GM with regards to salary and contract negotiation.
3. He's a smart guy who understands that his knowledge about hockey is lacking.

I think they will take that -- a guy who doesn't know much about hockey but is good at doing the technical aspects of managing a team and is open to learning.

The problem is, as fans, we don't want to have to sit through the growing pains of "learning." This is a professional sports team. We expect a GM and coach who already "know." Let him and the others "learn" somwhere else. We pay to watch the on-ice product. Like a show, if they're still working the kinks out we shouldn't have to pay.

Howson did play NHL hockey, acted as Assistant GM in Edmonton, and is an attorney, so I suppose the point you are trying to make is that he lacks the specialized knowledge of the game needed as a successful GM. Not sure I buy that, but I guess it's a reasonable question for you to raise.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Howson did play NHL hockey and he's an attorney, so I suppose the point you are trying to make is that he lacks the specialized knowledge of the game needed as a GM. Not sure I buy that, but I guess it's a reasonable question for you to raise.

Or he could just be suggesting Howson's a pencil-pushing, bean-counting duncebucket. And then projecting that onto the rest of the CBJ braintrust.

 

[pete goegan]

I know he played hockey. That doesnt mean he knows a lot about it, especially compared to other, more successful GM's.

How else do you explain Portzline's explanation that Davidson is the hockey side and Howson is the management side? Because that almost certainly is the case. JD is hockey and Howson is the lawyer.

Haven't seen that quote from AP regarding Howson. Priest, yes, not Howson. Link?

 

[Mayor Bee]

I know he played hockey. That doesnt mean he knows a lot about it, especially compared to other, more successful GM's.

How else do you explain Portzline's explanation that Davidson is the hockey side and Howson is the management side? Because that almost certainly is the case. JD is hockey and Howson is the lawyer.

Why would I care to explain anything that Portzline says? He doesn't know anything more about the inner workings of the front office than you or me.

Now, if it's true that Davidson is handling the hockey ops and Howson the business side, let me throw this out there. About 10 years ago, a long-suffering team grabbed someone from the broadcast booth who was:
- A former player. Not a great one, not an HOFer, but a solid one for a number of years
- An exceptional analyst
- Extremely knowledgeable about the game and its inner workings
- Knowledgeable about scouting and building a team

So this team decided that, needing someone to take over team operations, they would hire this longtime analyst to orchestrate the rebuild. And after 8 years with a .277 win percentage (third-worst stretch in league history), the Detroit Lions fired Matt Millen, who had made them even worse than they were before.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Or he could just be suggesting Howson's a pencil-pushing, bean-counting duncebucket. And then projecting that onto the rest of the CBJ braintrust.

That's what I got from it. I'm not really sure how someone who spent 13 years as an assistant GM of an NHL team and GM of an AHL team would not have knowledge of the inner workings of how a team runs, but we've heard this same tired line before.

It's no different than taking MacLean's (many) faults and projecting them onto Howson, everything from poor drafting (which is not the case under this regime) to "rushing players" (also not the case, and I'll argue it wasn't before as well) to bumbling around the AHL (night and day compared to before), etc.

 

[CapnCornelius]

I expect Howson to remain after Davidson makes his decisions.

This is because I get the sense that ownership and Davidson view Howson like this:
1. He's not particularly knowledgable about the game of hockey.
2. He's very good at the paperwork aspect of being a GM with regards to salary and contract negotiation.
3. He's a smart guy who understands that his knowledge about hockey is lacking.

I think they will take that -- a guy who doesn't know much about hockey but is good at doing the technical aspects of managing a team and is open to learning.

The problem is, as fans, we don't want to have to sit through the growing pains of "learning." This is a professional sports team. We expect a GM and coach who already "know." Let him and the others "learn" somwhere else. We pay to watch the on-ice product. Like a show, if they're still working the kinks out we shouldn't have to pay.

What part of the paperwork aspect does he get exactly? He's negotiated some truly horrible contracts and managed to have one of the highest payrolls in the league with a team that finished dead last.

This guy was hired as a capologist and failed miserably at that task. He's had to rely on trades for young players from other teams to make up for the fact that he couldn't develop or draft talent on his own which has led to glaring weaknesses in the net and at forward. Which for a "budget" team is not a good thing. He had to have a tutor brought in to help him and still managed to bungle his way through the most important trade in team history.

The fans already aren't paying. Attendance of 10,000 (and I'm sure plenty of no-shows) is not cutting it. If this team wants to "communicate with the fans" forget social media suites and consider sending a message that this time is really different and we really are building an organization from top down instead of slapping lipstick on a pig. If all JD is for this team is a pretty face then a golden opportunity for real change is being squandered.

 

[Mayor Bee]

What part of the paperwork aspect does he get exactly? He's negotiated some truly horrible contracts and managed to have one of the highest payrolls in the league with a team that finished dead last.

That high payroll lasted all of...what, six months? Out of 30 teams, the CBJ currently are 25th out of 30 in payroll. There are 13 contracts on the books for next year and 7 for two years down the road.

This guy was hired as a capologist and failed miserably at that task. He's had to rely on trades for young players from other teams to make up for the fact that he couldn't develop or draft talent on his own which has led to glaring weaknesses in the net and at forward. Which for a "budget" team is not a good thing. He had to have a tutor brought in to help him and still managed to bungle his way through the most important trade in team history.

Which young players are you referring to? The type of guys who are generally part of a rebuild (prospects and players who haven't put it together yet)? I mean, it's not like this is currently the youngest team in the league with an extremely low payroll or anything.

Here's what I want. You constantly harp on Howson drafting and developing talent...I want you to actually do a 30-team breakdown on what everyone else in the league has done since 2007. Not many teams have actually gotten NHL production out of their guys, and for those who have, the vast majority has come from players who Columbus could not have acquired anyway (Kane, Stamkos, Doughty, Tavares, Nugent-Hopkins, etc.)

 

[CapnCornelius]

Why would I care to explain anything that Portzline says? He doesn't know anything more about the inner workings of the front office than you or me.

Now, if it's true that Davidson is handling the hockey ops and Howson the business side, let me throw this out there. About 10 years ago, a long-suffering team grabbed someone from the broadcast booth who was:
- A former player. Not a great one, not an HOFer, but a solid one for a number of years
- An exceptional analyst
- Extremely knowledgeable about the game and its inner workings
- Knowledgeable about scouting and building a team

So this team decided that, needing someone to take over team operations, they would hire this longtime analyst to orchestrate the rebuild. And after 8 years with a .277 win percentage (third-worst stretch in league history), the Detroit Lions fired Matt Millen, who had made them even worse than they were before.

All the more reason to fire Howson so that there is someone competent to help out Davidson, then, right? I mean, he did have Armstrong to assist him in St. Louis.

That's what I got from it. I'm not really sure how someone who spent 13 years as an assistant GM of an NHL team and GM of an AHL team would not have knowledge of the inner workings of how a team runs, but we've heard this same tired line before.

It's no different than taking MacLean's (many) faults and projecting them onto Howson, everything from poor drafting (which is not the case under this regime) to "rushing players" (also not the case, and I'll argue it wasn't before as well) to bumbling around the AHL (night and day compared to before), etc.

If you repeat the lie long enough, will it become true?

Still waiting for evidence of Howson's great drafting acumen. Because, I'm looking at the lineup and what I see is a GM who's had to make a lot of trades because he hasn't been capable of developing players through the draft or acquiring players as free agents.

 

[Mayor Bee]

If you repeat the lie long enough, will it become true?

Still waiting for evidence of Howson's great drafting acumen. Because, I'm looking at the lineup and what I see is a GM who's had to make a lot of trades because he hasn't been capable of developing players through the draft or acquiring players as free agents.

Surely it had nothing to do with inheriting a bunch of dead weight and a bunch of garbage in the farm system that had no NHL future. I mean, who on earth would ever want to make a bunch of trades to try to stock both of those with guys who might have an NHL career as opposed to those who everyone knew had none?

Would it have been better to simply allow all those players to naturally decline and retire, getting nothing for them in the process? We'd have seen a 2009-10 season that made the 1992-93 Senators look competent, since it simply wasn't possible for the 2007 and 2008 drafting classes to pay off that quickly.

Let's back up to 2008, when Wade Redden spurned the CBJ despite what was apparently a superior offer. Doesn't that sum up the free agent market in a microcosm? Players don't want to spend prime years in what's perceived to be a dead end, and that goes for all sports and all levels. Look at college football recruiting, where exceptional players would rather sit on the bench for three years at Alabama (and maybe start as a senior) than start four years in Conference USA or the MAC. Now if that was the attitude in 2008, with a new regime and coming off a better season than any other in CBJ history, what exactly are you expecting to have happened with any other prime free agent? Oh, right, long-term contracts at inflated prices...it would improve the team, and you'd skewer Howson for doing what was necessary to bring in free agents.

Look at the end result of the Gomez and Redden and Campbell contracts. Would jumping into the free agent market have been a positive? Look at being able to acquire an excellent player on a long-term contract that was a relative bargain (Jeff Carter)...was that a positive?

 

[Dr. Fire]

Not sure about this whole culture debate. The bottom line is that this franchise has never had enough talent to win consistently.

Davidson has stated that he is going to take the slow approach and build talent through the draft, and through proper player development. See Ryjo.

Fasten your seat-belts, this will be a long bumpy ride.

 

[Fro]

Look at the end result of the Gomez and Redden and Campbell contracts. Would jumping into the free agent market have been a positive? Look at being able to acquire an excellent player on a long-term contract that was a relative bargain (Jeff Carter)...was that a positive?

obviously on the surface the Carter deal was perfect...low cap hit, low salary, a genuine 25-30g scorer to compliment Nash...but really we should have traded for Richards...

 

[CapnCornelius]

Here's what I want. You constantly harp on Howson drafting and developing talent...I want you to actually do a 30-team breakdown on what everyone else in the league has done since 2007. Not many teams have actually gotten NHL production out of their guys, and for those who have, the vast majority has come from players who Columbus could not have acquired anyway (Kane, Stamkos, Doughty, Tavares, Nugent-Hopkins, etc.)

Forget the NHL, MB. Who are these goaltending and forward prospects sitting in Springfield or Juniors that you think even have the potential to fill our glaring holes at those positions within the next 2 seasons.

Beyond that, are you seriously going to pretend that there aren't other players Howson could have drafted instead of those he did that would have turned out better?

You're telling me, for example, that in your opinion, if you had it to do over again, that taking Nikita Filatov was the best choice in 2008? Or that taking Derek Stepan in the 2nd round that year wouldn't have been a good move?

You wouldn't take, I don't know, Logan Couture over Jake Voracek...as many people on this board wanted to do, in 2007? PK Subban over Stefan Legein? Wayne Simmonds over Will Weber? Alec Martinez (out of Miami of Ohio) over Max Mayorov? (Hey, looks like that Lombardi guy really does know how to draft in later rounds.)

What about Jeff Skinner over Ryan Johansen if Howson insisted on reaching in that draft?

Then there is the Sean Couturier thing. Could have also had Dougie Hamilton since we all know he is God, which is why the Phil Kessel trade is such a giant disaster for Toronto, right?

And this ignores another problem with your thesis on Howson's drafting--he could have improved his draft position. Via trade or simply by being honest early in his tenure that a full rebuild was needed he could have drafted higher than he did in those drafts.

So, let's not pretend that Scott Howson hasn't had chances to draft any better players during the last 6 NHL drafts than what he has managed to draft. There isn't anything that is noteworthy about Howson's drafting. Not a thing. Which is problematic for a team that presently is dependent on the draft because of budgetary issues as well as problems recruiting free agents (made worse by the fact that no free agent is going to sign with a failed GM for anything less than a king's ransom).

At some point there is a limit, MB. No one gets to be GM forever until all of their guys develop. At some point the GM has to build a team with what he's got and what he can get that accomplishes something more than mediocrity and in nearly 6 full years Scott Howson hasn't been able to do it.

 

[EspenK]

I don't have the patience to do a 30 team analysis but I offer the following

2007- Drafted Jake - could have drafted Coture, McDonagh,
2nd rd- Drafted Stefan Legein- could have had PK Subban or Wayne Simmonds

2008- Drafted Filatov-nuff said but could have drafted Erik Karlsson, Del Zotto or Jordan Eberle
2nd Round- drafted Golubef -could have drafted Justin Schultz,

2009 -Drafted John Moore; had he not traded down could have drafted Kreider
2nd Round- Ottawa drafted Lehner with a pick they got in the Vermette trade

2010-drafted Joey-could have drafted Tarasenko

2011 -drafted no one due to the Carter trade- could have had Dougie Hamilton- we would up with J (fka mf) J so meh

2012- drafted Murray- could have had Galchenyuk- who knows?

I know it is unrealistic to expect to hit on every player noted above but I think the point is that it could have been better. probably could have been worse but I'm not trying to make that point. Leave that to a Howsonite.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Not sure about this whole culture debate. The bottom line is that this franchise has never had enough talent to win consistently.

Davidson has stated that he is going to take the slow approach and build talent through the draft, and through proper player development. See Ryjo.

Fasten your seat-belts, this will be a long bumpy ride.

I'm not so sure if we can use talent as an excuse.
Teams like Nashville always seem to overachieve when you look at the talent they have assembled. Probably same with St Louis now as well.
Talent helps, but great coaching can take a below average talent team to the playoffs in the NHL.
Unfortunately our ownership doesn't seem to believe that, although I'm assuming JD will change that.

I agree we don't have the talent to be a dominant team, but (IMO) coaching is what has kept us pretty consistently at the bottom of the NHL (outside of Hitchcock).

 

[CapnCornelius]

Surely it had nothing to do with inheriting a bunch of dead weight and a bunch of garbage in the farm system that had no NHL future. I mean, who on earth would ever want to make a bunch of trades to try to stock both of those with guys who might have an NHL career as opposed to those who everyone knew had none?

This always makes me laugh. I think Doug was an incompetent boob for the most part. Of course, that incompetent boob, in his 7 seasons as GM managed to draft Rick Nash, Rusty Klesla, Marc Methot, Kris Russell, Jared Boll, Derick Brassard, Steve Mason, and Derek Dorsett, among others. The guys listed all have played substantial time on "Howson's" teams.

In fact, the only Jackets team to ever make the playoffs had all of the guys mentioned above on the team for some portion of the year--Brassard and Klesla had injuries. Scott Howson should thank Doug and his horrible drafting for getting him to the playoffs for his only time.

Would it have been better to simply allow all those players to naturally decline and retire, getting nothing for them in the process?

Let's not kid ourselves about the "why" of Howson's trading. A lot of it had nothing to do with guys declining or retiring. You've got at least 3 guys in the last 12 months who begged out. You've got other guys like Klesla who he overpaid and then had to dump. This wasn't some grand plan of Howson to improve the team, it was often times a trade of desperation to either fill a hole or get rid of a malcontent (ex. the Chimera trade).

Now if that was the attitude in 2008, with a new regime and coming off a better season than any other in CBJ history, what exactly are you expecting to have happened with any other prime free agent? Oh, right, long-term contracts at inflated prices...it would improve the team, and you'd skewer Howson for doing what was necessary to bring in free agents.

Had Howson had forthought and built this team right, we wouldn't still be sitting in the same position in 2008 because we would have built on that success and made it to the second round of the playoffs or at least made another trip back to the playoffs the following season. Instead, Howson managed to make some poor decisions that off-season which resulted in the team regressing. And we've never recovered.

The excuses are at an end. 7 years is long enough. It was long enough for Doug. It was more than Brian Burke got in Toronto. So, why is Scott Howson special?

 

[JacketsDavid]

As for Howson...
I'm sure he is a bright guy and understands hockey.
heck for all I know he may be the 30th most qualified guy in North America to be the GM of a hockey team.
Problem is there appears to be 29 other NHL GMs that are a step ahead of him.
I don't see him doing much to improve this team over his tenure. That's my issue. He may not be THE problem, but he's not the solution either.

 

[CapnCornelius]

I don't have the patience to do a 30 team analysis but I offer the following

***
2nd rd- Drafted Stefan Legein- could have had PK Subban or Wayne Simmonds

In fact, we could have had both Subban and Simmonds. We had two picks in that round before both of those guys were taken.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Forget the NHL, MB. Who are these goaltending and forward prospects sitting in Springfield or Juniors that you think even have the potential to fill our glaring holes at those positions within the next 2 seasons.

Beyond that, are you seriously going to pretend that there aren't other players Howson could have drafted instead of those he did that would have turned out better?

That depends on if we're being realistic or not. Are we looking at it from the standpoint of picking up players who were more highly regarded at the time, or who look better now? Hell, we can run around in circles talking about how dumb the Rangers were in 1999 by taking Pavel Brendl when Ryan Miller (5th round) and Henrik Zetterberg (8th round) were still on the board.

You're telling me, for example, that in your opinion, if you had it to do over again, that taking Nikita Filatov was the best choice in 2008? Or that taking Derek Stepan in the 2nd round that year wouldn't have been a good move?

Let's see who went right after Filatov. That was Colin Wilson, Mikkel Bodker, Josh Bailey, Cody Hodgson, and Kyle Beach. None of them are All-Stars, and Hodgson is just now starting to do something. Beach is an immense flameout, and Tyler Myers (taken 12th) was regarded as a long-term project no matter where he was taken and was also a reach where he went. And the way he's played the last two years anyway....

Stepan? Here's what the NYR fans thought of taking him at that point, and notice the names they were clamoring for at that point. (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=526627)

What happens if Filatov actually did close to what everyone expected him to do? He was like Zherdev on the ice, and the anti-Zherdev off it. Instead, he screwed a lot of people and a lot of teams by somehow fooling pretty much everyone he came into contact with.

You wouldn't take, I don't know, Logan Couture over Jake Voracek...as many people on this board wanted to do, in 2007? PK Subban over Stefan Legein? Wayne Simmonds over Will Weber? Alec Martinez (out of Miami of Ohio) over Max Mayorov? (Hey, looks like that Lombardi guy really does know how to draft in later rounds.)

Oh good, I have a 2007 THN Draft Preview right next to me.

Voracek was ranked 4th, and spent half the year at #1 and #2. Couture, in his draft year, had mono, a knee injury, and a leg injury. There had also been concerns over the OHL draft two years prior, when there was enough fear that he wouldn't report to certain teams that he ended up dropping...we live in a post-Lindros world, remember. Couture was also knocked for his skating, and he didn't impress in the U18.

Mayorov was ranked 14th overall. Simmonds, Subban, and Martinez weren't in the top-50.

What about Jeff Skinner over Ryan Johansen if Howson insisted on reaching in that draft?

Skinner at #4 would have been a reach of Thomas Hickey proportions. Johansen was ranked around 8th, Skinner around 20th. Skinner's play plummeted last year anyway, and no one knows if it was a sophomore slump or if teams figured him out and he'll have to adjust.

Then there is the Sean Couturier thing. Could have also had Dougie Hamilton since we all know he is God, which is why the Phil Kessel trade is such a giant disaster for Toronto, right?

I don't know that I've ever offered my opinion on Hamilton, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

And this ignores another problem with your thesis on Howson's drafting--he could have improved his draft position. Via trade or simply by being honest early in his tenure that a full rebuild was needed he could have drafted higher than he did in those drafts.

All speculative, since:
- We don't know what it would have cost to improve that draft position.
- We don't know what was going on behind the scenes. Don't forget that Mike Priest made his famous "win now" declaration at the hiring press conference, and it would have looked pretty bad to have the team president saying one thing and the new GM saying and doing another.

And would there have been the patience from the fans? 7 years of Dougie's crap, then being asked to sit through another rebuild that would have involved all of the known names being shipped out.

So, let's not pretend that Scott Howson hasn't had chances to draft any better players during the last 6 NHL drafts than what he has managed to draft. There isn't anything that is noteworthy about Howson's drafting. Not a thing. Which is problematic for a team that presently is dependent on the draft because of budgetary issues as well as problems recruiting free agents (made worse by the fact that no free agent is going to sign with a failed GM for anything less than a king's ransom).

Then do the study and prove it.

 

[Mayor Bee]

The excuses are at an end. 7 years is long enough. It was long enough for Doug. It was more than Brian Burke got in Toronto. So, why is Scott Howson special?

This is the start of his 6th year, not the end of his 7th.

 

[Dr. Fire]

I'm not so sure if we can use talent as an excuse.
Teams like Nashville always seem to overachieve when you look at the talent they have assembled. Probably same with St Louis now as well.
Talent helps, but great coaching can take a below average talent team to the playoffs in the NHL.
Unfortunately our ownership doesn't seem to believe that, although I'm assuming JD will change that.

I agree we don't have the talent to be a dominant team, but (IMO) coaching is what has kept us pretty consistently at the bottom of the NHL (outside of Hitchcock).

I disagree with you for one reason. Nashville built their team from the back-end out. You can certainly find fault over the years with their forward corps, but they have thrived because of consistently solid goal-tending, and a defensive corps that has been very strong for some time now. That, and yes, good coaching has been what has made them successful.

To be honest the CBJ approach to success over the years has been nothing short of willy-nilly.

 

[CapnCornelius]

And would there have been the patience from the fans? 7 years of Dougie's crap, then being asked to sit through another rebuild that would have involved all of the known names being shipped out.

Do you think there is more patience now after 5 more failed seasons, MB?

You're now asking us to be patient, not with a new GM, but the same tired old GM who has blundered through his tenure here. You're apparently hoping that getting John Davidson is enough that free agents will want to play under that GM.

Then do the study and prove it.

And what exactly would be the point? So you could make even more excuses for Howson's draft failures? If I'm to believe you there is no way this guy could have acquired better NHL talent than is presently on the team. After 5.5 years. No, it is all just the worst luck in the world. No way he could have known to pick guys that were available. No way he could have traded to improve drafting position. No way he could have tanked seasons early on and stocked up on top level talent like Tampa, Edmonton or Chicago did. Nope, he's done everything humanly possible and the whole world has just conspired against him. None of it is poor Scotty's fault.

This is the start of his 6th year, not the end of his 7th.

Well, we all know that giving Doug that extra season paid off handsomely for us. Seriously, when is this guy accountable for the roster he's assembled? Give me a date and I'll mark it on my calendar.

 

[IBleedUnionBlue]

#CBJ vs PHX – PHX up by 1 goal. Brassard penalty 4 tripping in 3rd period leads to PPG.

#CBJ vs Chicago – CBJ down 3-1 in 3rd period; but on 4 min double minor PP, Brassard penalty 4 tripping negates advantage.

#CBJ vs Calgary – Score tied at 2 in 3rd period. Brassard takes a lazy hooking that leads to Flames PPG.

Just pointing out that Brassard has taken some costly penalties in the 3rd period, and thus perhaps the reason Richards benched him the other night.

 

[Fro]

wow...good point...didn't realize that...

 

[blahblah]

Now, if it's true that Davidson is handling the hockey ops and Howson the business side, let me throw this out there.

A strange dichotomy being considered.

That's what I got from it. I'm not really sure how someone who spent 13 years as an assistant GM of an NHL team and GM of an AHL team would not have knowledge of the inner workings of how a team runs, but we've heard this same tired line before.

There are many things that he seems to do well with, if someone is suggesting this line of thinking they probably need to reconsider. Having said that, there is a difference between "knowing the inner workings of a team" as opposed to having an idea on how to get blocks to fit together into a productive on ice unit. Howson may know how to identify and draft a play, he may know how to find a player that is being underutilized, he may understand how to negotiate a contract and manage the cap.

However there is little to suggest that he understands when a player is ready for the NHL and how to develop them properly, identify a good head coach, put players on the ice that are appropriate for their roles, compliment players skill sets, etc.

Meaning he might be able to do the nuts and bolts, but how to build a competitive team with players that complement each other, and putting together said players that the coaching staff can put into roles they can succeed in? Nah, not much evidence there.

Everything I have seen since he got here suggests a more appropriate role for this guy is as an assistant GM. I don't trust this guy to build a roster.

All that time he never figured out what good partners for Nash were, he tried to sell us on a defense that was poorly built, he didn't understand what made our playoff team work and took away from that group without adding anything to it? The evidence against this guy building a NHL roster is too great.

 

[InjuredChoker]

If you repeat the lie long enough, will it become true?

According to Lance Armstrong, yes.