Future Markets Discussion

[Captain Crash]

A friend who works in media in southwest Indiana told me today that the Owensboro arena is not happening and Geary is looking to relocate/sell the franchise.

An existing franchise that can be purchased and moved is an asset that has value. A folded franchise is not. The annual ECHL dues are a pittance compared to the value of the franchise - he can sell it and recoup the money he spent on dues. Portland, obviously, is looking to buy an existing team. This is an obvious candidate to be that one.

Tell your friend bravo.

http://www.14news.com/story/32552699/owensboro-will-not-build-new-arena-for-icemen

Owensboro will not be building a new arena to house the IceMen.

City officials estimated the arena, which would have been built on Highway 54, would have cost around $20-25 million.

The funding for the new arena would be part of the Highway 54 TIF money, but city officials say they have decided not to move forward with the project after conducting a feasibility study.

[PREVIOUS: IceMen will not play 2016 season]

City officials say they sent a letter to the IceMen late this past spring informing the organization of their decision. They tell us the team is now exploring other options including renovating the Owensboro Sportscenter.

We're told plans for a restaurant with offtrack betting in downtown Owensboro will still be moving forward.

This story will be updated.

Follow us online at 14NEWS.com and on Twitter. Text NEWSAPP to 51414 or click here to download our 14 News mobile app to get the latest headlines from around the Tri-State.

 

[GindyDraws]

Welp, Geary boned.

He will likely sell the team to the Portland investors.

 

[crimsonace]

Welp, Geary boned.

He will likely sell the team to the Portland investors.

To me, the "no new arena" thing was the out he needed. From the beginning, it looked like Geary was trying to bluff Evansville into re-doing the Ford Center lease, and with Owensboro being nearby, it would prevent another ECHL team from moving there. Once Evansville called his bluff with the SPHL, he had a team, but no place to play. This allows him to save face, telling the folks of Owensboro he tried, while keeping the value of his asset high.

Meanwhile, I think we have the franchise that will become the Portland Pirates.

 

[Cacciaguida]

it'll be nice to have the Pirates back

 

[BladesFan10]

Tell your friend bravo.

http://www.14news.com/story/32552699/owensboro-will-not-build-new-arena-for-icemen

Said it earlier in the offseason that Owensboro was going to fall apart, didn't think it would be this soon though. As far as what I've heard down here, Jacksonville/Another southern market is a hot favorite or another team in Evansville with the league believing that the SPHL's deal there will break that team within a year or two.

 

[Panic at the Back]

Said it earlier in the offseason that Owensboro was going to fall apart, didn't think it would be this soon though. As far as what I've heard down here, Jacksonville/Another southern market is a hot favorite or another team in Evansville with the league believing that the SPHL's deal there will break that team within a year or two.

What other southern market? Birmingham?

 

[JungleJON]

There will probably be as much movement in the ECHL as there will be in the AHL.
Once Las Vegas decides on their AHL affiliate (could be Utah) and when Ottawa, Colorado and Vancouver move their AHL affiliates as well. It should open up some cities in the Northeast.

We could have Portland, Binghamton and Utica in the ECHL, along with Jacksonville and Prescott Valley. Oklahoma City is an outside possibility. A few other cities will leave (fold or be sold).

In a few years, you could see the western teams disappear from the ECHL, if all that are left is Idaho and Alaska.

 

[BladesFan10]

What other southern market? Birmingham?

I've heard anywhere from Greensboro, Pensacola, and though not another southern market, Louisville. Also heard recently that the Owensboro franchise could either land back in Evansville, Oklahoma City, or even Oregon with the latter two being used to add another team for the central and west parts of the league.

Don't know how much to put into Oregon rumor, but i'm fairly confident on the Evansville, OKC, and Louisville rumors being somewhat true. Whether that results in any real movement, I don't know.

 

[crimsonace]

I've heard anywhere from Greensboro, Pensacola, and though not another southern market, Louisville. Also heard recently that the Owensboro franchise could either land back in Evansville, Oklahoma City, or even Oregon with the latter two being used to add another team for the central and west parts of the league.

Don't know how much to put into Oregon rumor, but i'm fairly confident on the Evansville, OKC, and Louisville rumors being somewhat true. Whether that results in any real movement, I don't know.

Louisville has been thrown around as a possibility for some time - it's probably the northernmost decent-sized city without hockey, but where?

2 viable arenas at the Fairgrounds - Freedom Hall & Broadbent - but both are old & I'm not sure either one has ice anymore. I've heard of longtime renovations to the downtown Louisville Gardens, but I'm not sure where those stand or if they're anywhere near completion. The KFC Yum Center where UofL plays basketball is a great, modern arena, but the hockey team would have to play backseat to both UL men's & women's hoops for much of the season.

 

[mk80]

I think the ECHL at this point will look to secure the vacancies in the north east left behind by the AHL for now, unless anything great opens up. There's rumblings that Binghamton is moving north of the border so that could be another spot to look at.

 

[crimsonace]

I think the ECHL at this point will look to secure the vacancies in the north east left behind by the AHL for now, unless anything great opens up. There's rumblings that Binghamton is moving north of the border so that could be another spot to look at.

Part of Bingo's lease with the Sens (which will have a year left when they move to Belleville next year) is that Ottawa has to find another AHL team to replace the B-Sens. Expectation is that it'll likely be Albany or Hartford.

Utica is a market that might be of interest to the ECHL when the inevitable Comets to the PNW move happens.

 

[GreenHornet]

I've heard anywhere from Greensboro, Pensacola, and though not another southern market, Louisville. Also heard recently that the Owensboro franchise could either land back in Evansville, Oklahoma City, or even Oregon with the latter two being used to add another team for the central and west parts of the league.

Don't know how much to put into Oregon rumor, but i'm fairly confident on the Evansville, OKC, and Louisville rumors being somewhat true. Whether that results in any real movement, I don't know.

Starting to hear rumblings about a new team possibly popping up in New Orleans, though I don't know if that would be ECHL or SPHL. There's also the little question of where such a team would play. Can't see the Pelicans willing to share their arena, and I'm not sure what renovations are still needed to make the Municipal Auditorium viable.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Starting to hear rumblings about a new team possibly popping up in New Orleans, though I don't know if that would be ECHL or SPHL. There's also the little question of where such a team would play. Can't see the Pelicans willing to share their arena, and I'm not sure what renovations are still needed to make the Municipal Auditorium viable.

The Pelicans will not share the arena - it's written into their lease.

The Morris F.X. Jeffs Auditorium is unusable and needs a complete renovation. It's been untouched since Katrina.

There are no other buildings with ice plants in New Orleans, so good luck with that.

 

[BigMac1212]

If you're looking at Louisiana, Shreveport/Bossier City has a hockey arena that is lacking a tenant.

 

[Captain Crash]

If you're looking at Louisiana, Shreveport/Bossier City has a hockey arena that is lacking a tenant.

They are now in the NAHL.

 

[RedMenace]

Didn't see this posted, and it's a couple of weeks old at this point, but it seems the Triad area of North Carolina is getting another shot:

http://www.journalnow.com/sports/pr...cle_b121e083-928d-55b6-ae08-56041d61e985.html

Also from the FHL website:

http://www.federalhockey.com/news/fhl-formally-approves-expansion-to-winston-salem-n

What's the quality level of the FHL - better or worse than the SPHL?

 

[ckg927]

Didn't see this posted, and it's a couple of weeks old at this point, but it seems the Triad area of North Carolina is getting another shot:

http://www.journalnow.com/sports/pr...cle_b121e083-928d-55b6-ae08-56041d61e985.html

Also from the FHL website:

http://www.federalhockey.com/news/fhl-formally-approves-expansion-to-winston-salem-n

What's the quality level of the FHL - better or worse than the SPHL?

Worse. I'd say: Go with the SPHL. Aside from the quality of play(which, from all indications, the SPHL is a bit better than the FHL), the SPHL's financial footing(league and teams)is a LOT better.

 

[royals119]

Worse. I'd say: Go with the SPHL. Aside from the quality of play(which, from all indications, the SPHL is a bit better than the FHL), the SPHL's financial footing(league and teams)is a LOT better.

They tried it already, folded after one season.

The LJVM Coliseum Annex has hosted minor professional hockey organizations since opening in 1989, most recently the Twin City Cyclones in the Southern Professional Hockey League (SPHL) during the 2006-07 season

 

[GindyDraws]

They tried it already, folded after one season.

Well... why not try again?

They'd be closer to opponents in the SPHL than they would the FHL. Plus, the SPHL the last team played in was different than the league today.

 

[royals119]

Well... why not try again?

They'd be closer to opponents in the SPHL than they would the FHL. Plus, the SPHL the last team played in was different than the league today.

I would guess the SPHL was too expensive, or wouldn't approve this ownership group. Based on their history the FHL will put a team almost anywhere without really vetting the ownership to make sure they have the money and resources to make it a success. I don't know the numbers, but an FHL expansion team has to be cheaper and easier to establish than an SPHL team, and cheaper to operate.

A quick wikipedia search reveals the following Winston-Salem hockey history:
The SHL Polar Twins lasted from 73-77 and folded along with the league.
The ACHL Thunderbirds were around from 81-87 when the league folded
The Thunderbirds then played in the AAHL for the 87-88 season, but that league also folded.
The ECHL Thunderbirds lasted from 88-92
The SHL Mammoths played in 95-96 after which the team and league folded.
The UHL Icehawks lasted from 97-99 before relocating to Glens Falls
The ACHL Parrots relocated from Jacksonville FL to W-S in 2002 mid season and folded at the end of the year, along with the league
The SEHL Thunderbirds played in W-S in 03-04, the team and league folded after one season.
The aforementioned SPHL Polar Twins played in one season 04-05.

If I wanted to start a hockey team and didn't care where I put it, I'd pick somewhere else based on that history, and if I lived in Winston-Salem I probably wouldn't be interested in owning a hockey team after living through all that.

 

[RedMenace]

I would guess the SPHL was too expensive, or wouldn't approve this ownership group. Based on their history the FHL will put a team almost anywhere without really vetting the ownership to make sure they have the money and resources to make it a success. I don't know the numbers, but an FHL expansion team has to be cheaper and easier to establish than an SPHL team, and cheaper to operate.

A quick wikipedia search reveals the following Winston-Salem hockey history:
The SHL Polar Twins lasted from 73-77 and folded along with the league.
The ACHL Thunderbirds were around from 81-87 when the league folded
The Thunderbirds then played in the AAHL for the 87-88 season, but that league also folded.
The ECHL Thunderbirds lasted from 88-92
The SHL Mammoths played in 95-96 after which the team and league folded.
The UHL Icehawks lasted from 97-99 before relocating to Glens Falls
The ACHL Parrots relocated from Jacksonville FL to W-S in 2002 mid season and folded at the end of the year, along with the league
The SEHL Thunderbirds played in W-S in 03-04, the team and league folded after one season.
The aforementioned SPHL Polar Twins played in one season 04-05.

If I wanted to start a hockey team and didn't care where I put it, I'd pick somewhere else based on that history, and if I lived in Winston-Salem I probably wouldn't be interested in owning a hockey team after living through all that.

Having grown up in the youth hockey program here, it's been difficult to be sure; despite the number of teams to come through, to say this isn't a strong professional hockey market isn't an understatement.

Then again, it may just be lack of advertising. I can count on zero hands how many spots I heard or saw for professional hockey in Winston-Salem post-Thunderbirds.

 

[Canucks21]

I would guess the SPHL was too expensive, or wouldn't approve this ownership group. Based on their history the FHL will put a team almost anywhere without really vetting the ownership to make sure they have the money and resources to make it a success. I don't know the numbers, but an FHL expansion team has to be cheaper and easier to establish than an SPHL team, and cheaper to operate.

A quick wikipedia search reveals the following Winston-Salem hockey history:
The SHL Polar Twins lasted from 73-77 and folded along with the league.
The ACHL Thunderbirds were around from 81-87 when the league folded
The Thunderbirds then played in the AAHL for the 87-88 season, but that league also folded.
The ECHL Thunderbirds lasted from 88-92
The SHL Mammoths played in 95-96 after which the team and league folded.
The UHL Icehawks lasted from 97-99 before relocating to Glens Falls
The ACHL Parrots relocated from Jacksonville FL to W-S in 2002 mid season and folded at the end of the year, along with the league
The SEHL Thunderbirds played in W-S in 03-04, the team and league folded after one season.
The aforementioned SPHL Polar Twins played in one season 04-05.

If I wanted to start a hockey team and didn't care where I put it, I'd pick somewhere else based on that history, and if I lived in Winston-Salem I probably wouldn't be interested in owning a hockey team after living through all that.

Most of those folding were because the league went out of business if you take those out it doesnt have that bad of a history

 

[SemireliableSource]

And don't forget the Twin City Cyclones with the amazingly terrible marketing tagline of "We're not just blowing through town."

 

[BigMac1212]

And don't forget the Twin City Cyclones with the amazingly terrible marketing tagline of "We're not just blowing through town."

That can't be taken out of context.

 

[JungleJON]

From Oursportscentral.com
HOCKEY

ECHL: A group in Reno (NV) is trying to bring an ECHL expansion team to the city by the 2017-18 season and possibly have the team affiliated with the National Hockey League's Las Vegas expansion team, which starts play for the 2017-18 season. The group still needs to fund and complete renovations, including installation of a professional ice surface, for the Reno Events Center. A team called the Reno Renegades (1995-97) and then the Reno Rage (1997-98) played three seasons in the former West Coast Hockey League (WCHL). An individual purchased the rights to the dormant Reno WCHL team in 2000 and proposed a new WCHL team to be called the Reno Raiders. When the ECHL absorbed the WCHL prior to the 2003-04 season, it inherited the WCHL Reno expansion team. The inactive ECHL Reno expansion team kept up with league dues over the past ten-plus years, but was unable to build a new arena as planned and this past season was no longer listed a future ECHL market. The ECHL plans to review expansion applications later this month and a group in Jacksonville has also expressed interest.

A potential investor for a proposed 2017-18 ECHL expansion team in Portland (ME) has pulled out, so an expansion application will most likely not be available for consideration at the league meeting later this month. The group trying to bring an ECHL team to Portland, which recently lost its Portland Pirates American Hockey League team to Springfield (MA), will now consider purchasing an existing ECHL team for relocation, possibly in time for the 2017-18 season.