Franson, Santorelli can't explain Leafs' downturn

[Deuce Awesome]

Dion shrinks too.

Dion is never erect.

 

[Hunter74]

Dion shrinks too.

Not when he was a member of the Flames.

I think Dion just looks disengaged now. Why that is imo is a good question.

 

[-DeMo-]

Really speaking I think the Leafs have a serious chemistry problem. They simply are less than the sum of their parts . On paper this is not a bad team, it looks like a playoff team.

Many of our fans moan and groan about Burke but the reality is he accumulated some decent assets and improved the talent level of our team. They just did not mesh well and that is a difficult thing to anticipate.

This is actually one of the reasons I don't mind the Mike Richards idea. We can just accept he will be the worlds highest paid 3rd line center but we can let his attitude and professionalism rub off on the kids that will be taking over the team.

I am thinking maybe chemistry is something we have to manufacture from the floor up.

I completely disagree with the bolded, this doesn't look like a playoff team, they are weak at center and Defense, and there strength lies on the wings, and have decent goaltending. teams who are weak at center usually are not good teams. same could be said about the defense. just looking at both positions I think it's quiet clear were in the bottom 10 in both those positions both on paper and in reality this year and that's a recipe for a bad team.

as for the players saying they don't know, I highly doubt that, they probably just don't want to say anything bad about the team they just left.

 

[BlueBaron]

its funny how you seem to pick out examples that are successful. and i'm not talking about kessel. i'm talking about players like lupul, phaneuf, etc...

yes they were castaways. yes you can improve teams with trades, but our trades never improved our team. so stop being over dramatic as if we made the playoffs continuously with this group over the last few years.

we're a garbage team due to the players we acquired. some of those acquisitions were good but not good enough for us to be a successful team.

I was not being overdramatic or suggesting success. I simply pointed out what you said makes no sense. You are the one who needs to stop being so overdramatic......

Yes I could have picked out some examples that didn't work but that would hardly illustrate the point that "castaways" can win and are not always doomed to failure.

 

[X66]

I thought it was Carlyle?

What a joke. Carlyle is one of the few coaches that would be able to get a 10 game winning streak out of this core. Thanks for the flawed core Burke!

If people think Carlyle wasn't a huge problem, they know nothing.

Just like how I'd argue that our play was worse than our record when we had success under Carlyle, I'd argue that our record is worse than our play with Horachek.

The team was already playing backwards under Carlyle, but had the goaltending to hide it in the standings(for the most part).

Leafs have been playing far better under Horachek, chances against are way down, shots against are way down and chances to score haven't diminished, despite the lack of offensive finish.

Considering Horachek was able to do all of that without a training-camp and the team at it's most vulnerable part of the season, what does that say about Carlyle?

Carlyle was a disaster, this roster should have been learning to play like this for ages.

 

[DesertHombre]

I find it interesting that the Leaf players have a way longer off season than the perennial playoff teams, yet the Leaf players run out of gas at the 3/4 season mark. Perhaps Phil Kessel was one of the better conditioned players at training camp, which doesn't say much for the rest of the core.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

I find it interesting that the Leaf players have a way longer off season than the perennial playoff teams, yet the Leaf players run out of gas at the 3/4 season mark. Perhaps Phil Kessel was one of the better conditioned players at training camp, which doesn't say much for the rest of the core.

 

[X66]

I find it interesting that the Leaf players have a way longer off season than the perennial playoff teams, yet the Leaf players run out of gas at the 3/4 season mark. Perhaps Phil Kessel was one of the better conditioned players at training camp, which doesn't say much for the rest of the core.

Any human with a brain could tell you playing 3 line hockey while playing in a system that allows franchise worst shot differentials is going to wear down any team.

That's primitive coaching, backed by primitive fans.

 

[leafers]

Not when he was a member of the Flames.

I think Dion just looks disengaged now. Why that is imo is a good question.

Thats because he cant handle being the man.

Ever since he became captain he has been afraid to make mistakes so he has become passive.

Thats not a player who embelishes the role and grows. Him getting the C was the worst thing for his game.

Not his fault though, its on Burke and Nonis.

 

[HellasLEAF]

I love how players/teams talk about needing to be more consistent. That's precisely the difference between good teams and bad teams to begin with. Consistency

 

[BlueBaron]

Thats because he cant handle being the man.

Ever since he became captain he has been afraid to make mistakes so he has become passive.

Thats not a player who embelishes the role and grows. Him getting the C was the worst thing for his game.

Not his fault though, its on Burke and Nonis.

I agree, I think if we had another option on D during his first years here he may be a different player today . Certainly he did not need the pressure of being Captain but I do believe he wanted it.

 

[yubbers]

Thats because he cant handle being the man.

Ever since he became captain he has been afraid to make mistakes so he has become passive.

Thats not a player who embelishes the role and grows. Him getting the C was the worst thing for his game.

Not his fault though, its on Burke and Nonis.

I don't buy that.

He went Hollywood and got soft. C or no C

 

[NikoPopp]

I think the explanation is pretty simple. When the first line doesn't score then the leafs lose. Isn't that the way it's been the last couple of years?

We still need a true #1 center who can lead this team. Bozak and kadri are not it.

 

[BlueBaron]

I completely disagree with the bolded, this doesn't look like a playoff team, they are weak at center and Defense, and there strength lies on the wings, and have decent goaltending. teams who are weak at center usually are not good teams. same could be said about the defense. just looking at both positions I think it's quiet clear were in the bottom 10 in both those positions both on paper and in reality this year and that's a recipe for a bad team.

as for the players saying they don't know, I highly doubt that, they probably just don't want to say anything bad about the team they just left.

I respect your opinion but cannot share it. I agree we do not have the center depth to be a true contender but usually we have had serviceable ones.

The offensive potential of this team is very high. Kessel, Lupul, JVR are all capable of 30 goals and Kadri is no slouch either. Our goaltending is average to above average.

The problem IMO is our defensive play never comes together. No matter who we bring in they seem to become lesser defensively. If you look at the D men we have had, some good players have come and go. They almost always play better before and after their time here. Defensive forwards rarely shine here, McClemment had one good year with us, Winnik is doing great but we know he is gone.

I am not saying my opinion is the end all and be all but I do feel this team seems to achieve 60-70% of their potential. Yes leadership is a big issue in this also. Not sure what can be done .

 

[Durkin67]

I thought it was Carlyle?

What a joke. Carlyle is one of the few coaches that would be able to get a 10 game winning streak out of this core. Thanks for the flawed core Burke!

Burke hasn't been there since 2012 and you're still blaming him?

wheres that face palm emoji...

 

[leafers]

Burke hasn't been there since 2012 and you're still blaming him?

wheres that face palm emoji...

He traded for Dion and made him captain, traded futures for Kessel, drafted kadri and traded for Lupul and Gardiner.

 

[Eb]

He traded for Dion and made him captain, traded futures for Kessel, drafted kadri and traded for Lupul and Gardiner.

Alas, the core I was talking about in my first post.

But let me guess, he wouldn't have signed Kessel, Bozak, Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner?

Where's the face palm emoji...

 

[Super Mega]

yea 2 guys that are brand new players in nashville are totally going to sewer their old team

why even have this be a thread and what a joke its newsworthy

 

[Hunter74]

I just find it weird that all year the whole team had no real spunk or jam. Yeah they could score goals but you new as soon as teams tightened up after Christmas like they always do that run and gun hockey drys up.

Yeah you can say look at the captain and yeah sure he sucks but look at yourself you are a highly paid Proffessional athlete you shouldn't need a captain to tell to go do your job? Do they need a motivational speech from Mark Messier to get them to give a damn about the effort they put on the ice? Do they need someone to show them how it is done every single night?

I thought these guys were supposed to be the best of the best and coddling is over and done because they make millions to do a job. They are supposed to be extremely motivated competitive athletes who want to win, right?

Time after time the vets say the same thing, skill guys don't like to play the hard game, skill guys ,like to score that's all. It's tough playing a system and so on and so on. Those are guys who have been here 1 measly year and not a full year either just 3 months of hockey as a Leaf. Maybe the Captain gave up on the team?

Just feels to easy to blame 1 player with a letter when you can blame 5 who play up front.

 

[burpsalot]

No leadership on this team. You could blame Dion, but I never considered him a team leader, you could pin that error on Burke. Then you have your big offensive star who is the furthest thing from a leader. If leafs ever want to compete for the Stanley Cup they have to get some real team leaders. Compare that to a team of real leaders, 1st 8 players listed were Captains with NHL clubs.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000342002.html

 

[Giuseppe Sallo]

The tank patrol minus Reims.

 

[Semantics]

We still need a true #1 center who can lead this team. Bozak and kadri are not it.

How do you know Kadri isn't? He's never been used in that role, except for a brief 20 game stint last year when Bozak was injured. Meanwhile Bozak has been given 5 years to prove he's not cut out for it.

 

[Dirty Dan]

its funny how you seem to pick out examples that are successful. and i'm not talking about kessel. i'm talking about players like lupul, phaneuf, etc...

yes they were castaways. yes you can improve teams with trades, but our trades never improved our team. so stop being over dramatic as if we made the playoffs continuously with this group over the last few years.

we're a garbage team due to the players we acquired. some of those acquisitions were good but not good enough for us to be a successful team.

Lupul was PPG the season we got him, him on the LTIR doesn't make us a worse team.

We got phanuef for scraps, he is a good defenseman. Who's fault is it that he had to carry the defensive load and go into his role right away.

We are a better team with lupul and phanuef in the lineup, the record speaks for itself.

 

[Dirty Dan]

I love how players/teams talk about needing to be more consistent. That's precisely the difference between good teams and bad teams to begin with. Consistency

Edmonton is consistent, Pittsburg is inconsistent. Now which team is better?

 

[ITM]

Edmonton is consistent, Pittsburg is inconsistent. Now which team is better?

Is there a subgroup on this board, that doesn't know that the context of conversation about consistency and inconsistency and Toronto's needs going forward only pertain to success?