Confirmed with Link: Francis out as GM - Don Waddell named GM 5/8/18

[The Faulker 27]

I find it odd that there’s a subset of people on here just willing to completely dismiss reports as total bull****.

Then again a majority of folks on here dismissed comments from actual teammates of Semin that he was a lazy **** that didn’t give a **** so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

I find it odd that you find it odd.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Dundon needs to nip this rumor quickly I wouldn’t want this negative news, true or false, hanging over this offseason when we are making a run at players.

Only had to wade through 10 pages of shit before getting to (arguably) the most important point. Now I'm sure our Angry voice of reason will come along and say that professional athletes aren't affected by shit like this and can see through it all and don't speculate and blah blah, but I'll preemptively disagree. This is not a good look and will continue to snowball until Dundon gets out in front of it. I give no f***s about the media, but I do give a f*** about the hit the org in general is taking.

 

[ndp]

Not trying to ruffle any feathers here. But this idea that Dundon is some extremely savvy businessman falls a little flat for me.
The guy made millions on subprime auto loans and when CFPB was about to shut it down (as they should) he cashed out. Santander did pay out a $22m settlement to the state of Massachusetts for predatory subprime lending practices. Before that he was a finance officer at a used car lot (where he developed the idea) subprime lending isn't really business savvy, it's more of a scam and a no loose situation for the lender.
My brother-in-law is the finance officer at a VERY high end car lot and he texted me the day it was announced Dundon bought the team (he's doesn't follow hockey at all). Dundon is a very well known name in the auto industry especially among the financial departments. Brother-in-laws opinion is the guy was basically a crook and probably engaged in borderline illegal lending practices.
All that said, I really don't care how he made his money if he's willing to spend some of it fixing my beloved hockey team. I just don't think the guy is quite the great businessman (unless you consider basically scamming poor people with 25%+ auto loans that they have no chance in hell at paying back good business) some are making him out to be.

 

[AeroFishOne]

Only had to wade through 10 pages of **** before getting to (arguably) the most important point. Now I'm sure our Angry voice of reason will come along and say that professional athletes aren't affected by **** like this and can see through it all and don't speculate and blah blah, but I'll preemptively disagree. This is not a good look and will continue to snowball until Dundon gets out in front of it. I give no ****s about the media, but I do give a **** about the hit the org in general is taking.

Exactly bad look all around. While I’m a big proponent that athletes will follow the money, I still think they value the other factors as well, moreso in hockey then other sports I think. No physical proof of that at all but I hear less about it in hockey then I do rd other major sports.

 

[go comets]

Maybe Dundon wanted more say and wanted Francis to report to him and instead, francis got outta the way..... no one will ever know what is going on, but it makes the franchise look pretty damn bad.......

 

[AeroFishOne]

Not trying to ruffle any feathers here. But this idea that Dundon is some extremely savvy businessman falls a little flat for me.
The guy made millions on subprime auto loans and when CFPB was about to shut it down (as they should) he cashed out. Santander did pay out a $22m settlement to the state of Massachusetts for predatory subprime lending practices. Before that he was a finance officer at a used car lot (where he developed the idea) subprime lending isn't really business savvy, it's more of a scam and a no loose situation for the lender.
My brother-in-law is the finance officer at a VERY high end car lot and he texted me the day it was announced Dundon bought the team (he's doesn't follow hockey at all). Dundon is a very well known name in the auto industry especially among the financial departments. Brother-in-laws opinion is the guy was basically a crook and probably engaged in borderline illegal lending practices.
All that said, I really don't care how he made his money if he's willing to spend some of it fixing my beloved hockey team. I just don't think the guy is quite the great businessman (unless you consider basically scamming poor people with 25%+ auto loans that they have no chance in hell at paying back good business) some are making him out to be.

I’d venture to say a good portion of successful billionaires have skeletons in their closets of the people they’ve screwed over and stepped on to get where they are. Nature of the beast I imagine.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I honestly don't care who the GM is as long as he makes some moves, tries some stuff and makes us watchable again. I care more about who will be our next coach. Stuff like this has happened before and teams survive. The timing of Francis's move was just so weird that it's put us in a tough spot, but it will be fine.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Yes. I am completely willing to dismiss a report that we're planning to pay our GM $400k. It's ludicrous on its face.

 

[Hulkacaniac]

I’d venture to say a good portion of successful billionaires have skeletons in their closets of the people they’ve screwed over and stepped on to get where they are. Nature of the beast I imagine.

Sure, the ruthless are the ones who make it to the top, but Dundon made his fortune on subprimes.

We liked dundon because he's said all the right things and his actions have been good to this point. We'll just have to see how this absurdness plays out, hoping for the best but expecting a shitshow.

 

[The Stranger]

There was a line attributed to Dundon, can't remember the exact phrase, but it was said when discussing moves earlier, a few weeks prior to the TDL. It was something like "it didn't go well". I've always felt that was the time frame that rubbed Dundon the wrong way, not the TDL.

This could be. I'm sure there were disagreements prior to the TDL. There were rumors RF was considering resigning...if true, the relationship had to be very poor and getting fired mid-season would make sense.

TD was quoted as saying his style relative to RF's could not be more different.

I am not at all understanding this need to portray this as if Dundon was angry at RF.

Maybe "angry" isn't the best word, but it's semantics. For TD to fire RF 2 months into owning the team and mid-season no less, he had to have some negative feelings towards the job he was doing...frustration, disappointment, doubt, impatience...maybe anger.

And my theory about the sword was quickly proven wrong, I said so the same day.

I suspect the TD post-firing comments would be very different if he was given a dose of sodium pentathol. He was definitely very gracious towards RF which was nice and the right move. RF is bright and has valuable insights, RF is a man with a plan, RF has valuable experience, the player personnel department was simply undermanned, TD and RF were fully in alignment on TDL...RF is sounding pretty good no?

However, it's fair enough to take the public comments as truth, say you were proven wrong, and move along. It's possible they were in agreement and the reasons for the firing predated the TDL.

 

[geehaad]

Maybe "angry" isn't the best word, but it's semantics. For TD to fire RF 2 months into owning the team and mid-season no less he, had to have some negative feelings towards the job he was doing...frustration, disappointment, doubt, impatience...maybe anger.

The difference between disappointed/frustrated/doubt/impatience and ANGER is decidedly not semantics. And "anger" is the exact word that I'm taking issue with, none other, so I'm not interesting in debating any of those other words.

But any word with emotion tied to it is absurd. Emotion comes from being out of control, the inability to affect what is being done to you in a meaningful way. Dundon isn't being emotional because he has final control over the whole ball of wax. To me, that part of this is elementary.

RF balked at GM-by-committee. Dundon said, ok, then I'm going to move you out of that position because that's what the position requires. RF was pissed (absolutely justifiably so) and considered resigning (we've heard this via tweet). Dundon's part can easily be that simple, calculated, and devoid of emotion.

What's very difficult to understand is why Dundon would be *angry* at Francis. It's ludicrous.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Not trying to ruffle any feathers here. But this idea that Dundon is some extremely savvy businessman falls a little flat for me.
The guy made millions on subprime auto loans and when CFPB was about to shut it down (as they should) he cashed out. Santander did pay out a $22m settlement to the state of Massachusetts for predatory subprime lending practices. Before that he was a finance officer at a used car lot (where he developed the idea) subprime lending isn't really business savvy, it's more of a scam and a no loose situation for the lender.
My brother-in-law is the finance officer at a VERY high end car lot and he texted me the day it was announced Dundon bought the team (he's doesn't follow hockey at all). Dundon is a very well known name in the auto industry especially among the financial departments. Brother-in-laws opinion is the guy was basically a crook and probably engaged in borderline illegal lending practices.
All that said, I really don't care how he made his money if he's willing to spend some of it fixing my beloved hockey team. I just don't think the guy is quite the great businessman (unless you consider basically scamming poor people with 25%+ auto loans that they have no chance in hell at paying back good business) some are making him out to be.

Or, since just about anyone could do what he did, but very few actually made hundreds of millions doing it, maybe he's a little more business savvy than you want to give him credit for?

 

[ndp]

I would have like to see Francis given his 5th year.
I also think it's time for a coaching change and Francis probably wasn't the guy to do that. Same goes for the scouting and development staff, still too much of the old boys club for me.
It's somewhat of a conflicting situation, Peters doesn't have the player talent to win consistently but he also makes boneheaded decisions. Ryan, Skinner, Faulk 3 on 3? Mixing up the d-pairs?
No matter who the next GM is I hope to God we never see Nordstrom, Ryan and Di Giuseppe in a Canes uniform again and find a way to move or buy out Darling.
Francis failed to provide the talent but I also fell Peters isn't using what little talent he has properly. Playing Skinner with scrubs? It's no wonder he's given up. Does the lack of moves by Francis contribute to the give up attitude of some players?
We don't have the talent to roll 3 scoring lines, stop trying to make it happen. Our talent level is more of a 2a, 2b, 4a, 4b setup. A true #1C and we could have a legit top line, is that worth leveraging the future without fixing all the other holes in the lineup? I don't know. Faulk having a pure $h!t season has not helped at all.
I get the feeling we were going to see some roster changes this off-season no matter who the GM was. Was Francis shielding the guys in Charlotte from some big club locker room cancer? Allowing them to develop not only physically, but also a winning mentality. We will never know for certain.
I just hope that either going cheap on the GM, and, or having a meddlesome owner doesn't sink us farther. At some point the fans need to hear a plan. Francis laid out a plan and somewhat failed to execute it. I just hope that Dundon or the new GM does the same, without the failure part.
This could and should be an exciting time for fans, instead it's turning into a media fueled, anxiety inducing, drama. One thing is for certain we need some stability asap.

 

[Vagrant]

it's also pretty weird how so much is being made of "all decisions will have to come through me" as the genesis of some me-first totalitarian when virtually all teams in the nhl have that informal arrangement whether their fans know it and recognize it or not. it's a pretty pointed smear campaign in my opinion. i doubt someone that professes to know nothing about the game would be inclined to want all the responsibility of the expectations of the position. there's a lot of really interesting inferences being made. the hockey community is desperately trying to suppress any copycat behavior of owners using the hypothetical roadmap they assign to dundon in trying to run the show. their very livelihoods depend upon the assumption of knowledge of team building and finances as a result of having spent a lot of time in professional hockey as a player and jumping directly into an executive position. the reflexive blowback you're seeing is a lot of insecurity on behalf of the institution that ron francis represented as opposed to the man himself.

 

[geehaad]

I'm disappointed in HFCanes for causing me to feel compelled to offer yet another voice into the cacophony, but I find it very difficult to believe that any GM has been offered the job for $400M/per.

 

[geehaad]

the hockey community is desperately trying to suppress any copycat behavior of owners using the hypothetical roadmap they assign to dundon in trying to run the show.

The only thing I know about the "stats revolution" in baseball was the movie Moneyball, but all of this makes me wonder if this same kind of blow-back occurred there, as well.

 

[AeroFishOne]

Sure, the ruthless are the ones who make it to the top, but Dundon made his fortune on subprimes.

We liked dundon because he's said all the right things and his actions have been good to this point. We'll just have to see how this absurdness plays out, hoping for the best but expecting a ****show.

Not looking to get into a whole thing about it but the subprime s doesn’t really bother me as I understand them. I’m a believer in Self-responsibility. No issues whatsoever with anyone that disagrees at all and no disrespect toward them.. Just a philosophy of mine that not everyone is going to share.

I’m going through this whole ownership transfer with Marlins as well. It’s funny how both franchises have championship/championships, but a lack of success year end and year out. Both got rid of owners that were considered holding their teams back but both have a significant portion of fans that think it’s gotten worse. Both new ownership have done things I haven’t liked, far more on the Marlins side though by far but I’m willing to give it a chance.

 

[Vagrant]

The only thing I know about the "stats revolution" in baseball was the movie Moneyball, but all of this makes me wonder if this same kind of blow-back occurred there, as well.

absolutely. they're also currently engaged in a "nerds" vs. old school gumption battle that the old school gumption is slowly losing if they're failing to accommodate the metrics. change like this is always incremental to the resistance of ownership's diminishing faith in gumption.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Odds that we begin the off-season with Waddell as interim GM and end it with interim removed?

 

[Vagrant]

highly doubt he can take that route at this point. it's almost like a gauntlet was laid down with the low ball salary rumor leak. if dundon is interested in damage control at all, he probably has to at least attempt to make a move for a hockey guy. staying in house wouldn't be a great look if you're trying to mask some form of informal gm status and it's an image you don't want propagated. that would be highly concerning if it came to fruition.

 

[Hulkacaniac]

Odds that we begin the off-season with Waddell as interim GM and end it with interim removed?

Just the thought of this gives me uncontrollable tremors

 

[sheriff bart]

Odds that we begin the off-season with Waddell as interim GM and end it with interim removed?

You suck as a human being

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

This is the Fox News/MSNBC tactic: one guy will claim something, then the rest of the newsroom will "report" on that claim rather than the actual content itself. In this case, Kyper claimed the GM's were backing out because of the 400k salary, now Canadian media is reporting on what Kyper said as "Report:....." or somesuch.

That's not to say that this isn't true. Let's presume it is true, then the reasoning is:
1) Dundon is being cheap
2)Dundon really does want a GM by committee, as speculated here, and thus doesn't see the point in paying through the nose for a "hockey guy"
3) Dundon is trying to get GM's on RFA/bridge deals- so the guy will come here, get experience as an NHL GM, then get a sweet UFA gig with a better org
4) Dundon doesn't want to pay two GM's at the same time (Francis and new guy)
5) All of the above

 

[cptjeff]

I find it odd that there’s a subset of people on here just willing to completely dismiss reports as total bull****.

Then again a majority of folks on here dismissed comments from actual teammates of Semin that he was a lazy **** that didn’t give a **** so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

Considering that we're coming off of what, three to four years of these same sources pedaling absolute and total bullshit as fact when it comes to relocation, are you shocked that some of us don't consider them credible when making different absurd claims?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

On the flipside, as fans of the team we have a very obvious reason to engage in denial that Dundon offered 400k for an NHL GM- 'cause either he is engaging in the process of hiring a GM ignorant of the freaking salary expectations, or is trying to save money on one of the last places a team is going to cut costs not half a year into his tenure.

I think it's bunk, but I have a very non-rational, desperate reason to believe it's bunk.