Footballing Hot Takes

[YNWA14]

Probably cause the people who hype CR7 on here usually can’t help themselves from taking silly shots at Messi.

This is absolutely a two way street (and there's a lot more hate for CR7 than there is for any other player tbh). I wish people could just appreciate both for what they are. We're incredibly lucky to be able to watch them both play IMO, regardless of the disdain that some people have for either.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Probably cause the people who hype CR7 on here usually can’t help themselves from taking silly shots at Messi.

People barely ever take shots at Messi here. But any accomplishment CR7 gets ripped on and crapped on. Just something I’ve noticed.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Just because Messi has incredible vision and reading of the game on the ball doesn't mean that he's not their primary goal threat (always leads his teams in shots and goals). But make no mistake, Messi is one of the more selfish players in the world (and that's not a slight, he does it because he can). Just watch him in any game; he often dribbles when he can pass and often shoots when he can pass too. The thing is that his dribbling and shooting are both at a level where he can get away with it. He has an incredible understanding for the offensive side of the game however and that is supplemental to his goalscoring and dribbling abilities.

Not a question of selfishness either.

People barely ever take shots at Messi here. But any accomplishment CR7 gets ripped on and crapped on. Just something I’ve noticed.

Yeah. Because people here tend to think CR7 is overrated for totally fair reasons.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Because people here tend to think CR7 is overrated for totally fair reasons.

Like what?

I don’t see why it’s so outlandish to consider CR7 one of the 5-10 best players ever. He’s done and achieved more than basically every other player ever.

 

[Evilo]

...which is an argument for Gabigol since he did so with less help...

So you're actually arguing that a guy on a weaker team who wins one scoring record and one "foreigner of the year" title isn't comparable to a striker who scored as many goals, won the same number of scoring title and foreigner of the year, WHO ADDED a "player of the year award"?

That makes zero sense. If Batigol was such a superstar on a weaker team compared to Trezeguet on a better team, surely, he would have won more foreigners award and actually more MVP awards, right? EVERYONE values players who drag their team to the top rather than a star among a collection of stars.

Saying they're not comparable is insanity.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Like what?

I don’t see why it’s so outlandish to consider CR7 one of the 5-10 best players ever. He’s done and achieved more than basically every other player ever.

His own contribution to the goals he scores compared to his teammates putting him in great positions. Poor play when he's not in scoring positions. Goal totals far less impressive when you take away the penalties.

 

[The Abusement Park]

His own contribution to the goals he scores compared to his teammates putting him in great positions. Poor play when he's not in scoring positions. Goal totals far less impressive when you take away the penalties.

Ronaldo has good off the ball movement, especially in the box and great scoring instincts I don’t, sure he scores tap ins, but that hasn’t always been his MO. He’s adapted his game as he’s gotten older.

And Messi’s the primary PK taker for Barça, so if you’re going to count that against Cristiano you have to count it against Messi.

 

[cgf]

So you're actually arguing that a guy on a weaker team who wins one scoring record and one "foreigner of the year" title isn't comparable to a striker who scored as many goals, won the same number of scoring title and foreigner of the year, WHO ADDED a "player of the year award"?

That makes zero sense. If Batigol was such a superstar on a weaker team compared to Trezeguet on a better team, surely, he would have won more foreigners award and actually more MVP awards, right? EVERYONE values players who drag their team to the top rather than a star among a collection of stars.

Saying they're not comparable is insanity.

MVP awards are all most-spectacular-player awards by another name. That’s why they go to the top players and not the guys dragging bad teams to competency. It’s why MacKinnon’s biggest competition for the Hart are Kucherov & Malkin, not Hall, Kopitar and McDavid.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Ronaldo has good off the ball movement, especially in the box and great scoring instincts I don’t, sure he scores tap ins, but that hasn’t always been his MO. He’s adapted his game as he’s gotten older.

And Messi’s the primary PK taker for Barça, so if you’re going to count that against Cristiano you have to count it against Messi.

Uh, well his movement in the box is part of being in scoring positions. He was badly overrated as a creative player when he was younger.

Messi has taken 59 penalties in 32,772 La Liga minutes. Cristiano has taken 71 penalties in 24,761 La Liga minutes. Penalties account for 20% of Cristiano's goals and 13% of Messi's goals in La Liga. Gap in scoring contribution between them widens considerably when you take the penalties out.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Uh, well his movement in the box is part of being in scoring positions. He was badly overrated as a creative player when he was younger.

Messi has taken 59 penalties in 32,772 La Liga minutes. Cristiano has taken 71 penalties in 24,761 La Liga minutes. Penalties account for 20% of Cristiano's goals and 13% of Messi's goals in La Liga. Gap in scoring contribution between them widens considerably when you take the penalties out.

He was a much better creative player when he was at Manchester United, but by the end of his career there he was clearly a goal scorer and was turned into one. But his entire Madrid career has been based around scoring goals, and never about creating them.

 

[Albatros]

More relevant would be how many penalties the two have earned, criticizing a player for scoring is a bit silly.

 

[les Habs]

More relevant would be how many penalties the two have earned, criticizing a player for scoring is a bit silly.

Well that would only be relevant if you actually considered the ones that were rightfully given if you're getting technical about it. Even then there's the context of their respective roles in in their teams. Why anyone would bother though is beyond me unless they feel the need to put Ronaldo forward as somehow being level with Messi much less the better player. It's like @Deficient Mode said earlier in the thread, actually try watching them play.

 

[Deficient Mode]

He was a much better creative player when he was at Manchester United, but by the end of his career there he was clearly a goal scorer and was turned into one. But his entire Madrid career has been based around scoring goals, and never about creating them.

He really wasn't a very good creative player at Manchester either. He was never a good passer and his dribbling style was way flashier than it was effective. It's just something that his fans point to as proof that we shouldn't discredit him as a pure poacher like we do a ton of other strikers.

Suarez scores (non-penalty goals) and assists more often per minute than Cristiano as well in La liga and the EPL by the way.

 

[Albatros]

Well that would only be relevant if you actually considered the ones that were rightfully given if you're getting technical about it.

"The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play are final." -Law 5

 

[les Habs]

"The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play are final." -Law 5

Which doesn't change the fact that refs get it wrong regularly enough. "Penaldo" exists for a reason.

 

[Evilo]

MVP awards are all most-spectacular-player awards by another name. That’s why they go to the top players and not the guys dragging bad teams to competency. It’s why MacKinnon’s biggest competition for the Hart are Kucherov & Malkin, not Hall, Kopitar and McDavid.

So you're saying the guys you quote aren't comparable.

 

[Albatros]

Which doesn't change the fact that refs get it wrong regularly enough. "Penaldo" exists for a reason.

Referees don't get penalty decisions any more often wrong than offsides, for example.

 

[cgf]

So you're saying the guys you quote aren't comparable.

Where did I say this?

I understand it’s more convenient for you to tilt against straw men of your invention, but you’re reading comprehension:

 

[les Habs]

Referees don't get penalty decisions any more often wrong than offsides, for example.

Of course. How exactly is that relevant to the discussion about goals come from the spot though?

 

[Evilo]

Where did I say this?

I understand it’s more convenient for you to tilt against straw men of your invention, but you’re reading comprehension:

The WHOLE f***ing point is that both guys are comparable. You give an NHL comparison, yet you can't get the first point of it?
And I'm having trouble with comprehension?

 

[Albatros]

Of course. How exactly is that relevant to the discussion about goals come from the spot though?

Just pointed out the sectarian hypocrisy in your claim.

 

[cgf]

The WHOLE ****ing point is that both guys are comparable. You give an NHL comparison, yet you can't get the first point of it?
And I'm having trouble with comprehension?

I mentioned the NHL only in the context of what MVP trophies are actually awarded for and why they don’t provide a fair comparison between a player on a powerhouse and a player on a lower level European team.

If we acknowledge this reality, then that mutes the utility of comparing trophies between guys who played for as disparate clubs as did Trez & Batistuta

 

[Evilo]

When was the last time an NHL MVP wasn't EVEN COMPARABLE to a great player who didn't get the MVP because his team was average?

 

[cgf]

When was the last time an NHL MVP wasn't EVEN COMPARABLE as a great player who didn't get the MVP because his team was average?

This year. MacK, Malkin & Kuch are not comparable to McDavid. He’s just better at hockey than them but won’t win the Hart even if he does take the Art Ross

 

[Evilo]

Malkin isn't comparable to McDavid?

Well that's all I need to know.

Plain insanity.