Footballing Hot Takes

[Deficient Mode]

No one is buying goals vs goals arguments. Especially if you're not going to adjust for penalties, games/minutes played, and variations in scoring. Unless you're prepared to argue that Higuain=R9 too - since his best season goal totals equal or surpass R9's, and that's the only criteria you ever use - please spare us the rants about Cristiano being Lemieux.

 

[YNWA14]

You can look at it relative to their peers though, no?

Was R9 outscoring the rest of Europe to the extent that Ronaldo and Messi have throughout their careers?

Since it's been decided it was harder to score back then and he's obviously on a different level to the likes of CR7 at the very least. Now that it's so easy to score a lot CR7's goal scoring (and Messi's) can be taken with a grain of salt as plenty of players are doing the same thing.

 

[Deficient Mode]

You can look at it relative to their peers though, no?

Sure you can. Ronaldo had a spell as the best player in the world and Cristiano didn't even come close. It's settled then.

 

[YNWA14]

Sounds good.

 

[Evilo]

blah, blah, blah

You still didn't answer : did you even see Maradona back then?

Because as I told you, I am old enough to have seen him.
Not only do the stats kill the Maradona argument, the eye test does too.

He joined a Napoli team that was hardly the trainwreck you described. He joined in june 84. They had finished 4th in the league in may 82 (so that's not 4 years like you said). Did he have an impact? Sure he had. But certainly not the one you make it out to be. It took several excellent additions before Napoli could fight for the title. The narrative that he took a piss poor team to two italian championships is just wrong. He was the best player on a pretty good team and had a good run for several years. That's HARDLY an incredible achievement given the roster (and coach) they had.

As for the Batigol/Trezegol comparison, they are definitely in the same league. I'd take Batigol, but Trezeguet achieved more in his career.
YOU decided the stats were screwed, I totally disagree with this. They may not fit your agenda, but Trezeguet was scoring a lot before Italy too. I compared the two players' numbers in the same league. Sure, they had different teams and situations. Somehow you feel Gabigol's later career shouldn't count. He was 34 when he left Italy. Trezeguet was 33. And he too had two unproductive seasons over 30. Yet you feel it's unair to count them for Gabigol but not Trezeguet? How so?

Number of "foreigner of the year" trophies in Italy? 1 for Gabigol, 1 for Trezegol.
Number of scoring trophies in Italy? 1 for Gabigol, 1 for Trezegol.
Number of player of the year awards in Italy? 0 for Gabigol, 1 for Trezegol.
Trezeguet has better european stats too.

They might not be comparable in your head, but since they pretty much have similar stats, similar styles and comparable trophies, I'd say they're VERY comparable.

 

[cgf]

No one is buying goals vs goals arguments. Especially if you're not going to adjust for penalties, games/minutes played, and variations in scoring. Unless you're prepared to argue that Higuain=R9 too - since his best season goal totals equal or surpass R9's, and that's the only criteria you ever use - please spare us the rants about Cristiano being Lemieux.

This. If you’re just going to regurgitate Christiano’s #s at us and point to his durability you can save your breath. That crap doesn’t convince anyone but CR7-fanboys

 

[John Pedro]

You still didn't answer : did you even see Maradona back then?

Because as I told you, I am old enough to have seen him.
Not only do the stats kill the Maradona argument, the eye test does too.

He joined a Napoli team that was hardly the trainwreck you described. He joined in june 84. They had finished 4th in the league in may 82 (so that's not 4 years like you said). Did he have an impact? Sure he had. But certainly not the one you make it out to be. It took several excellent additions before Napoli could fight for the title. The narrative that he took a piss poor team to two italian championships is just wrong. He was the best player on a pretty good team and had a good run for several years. That's HARDLY an incredible achievement given the roster (and coach) they had.

As for the Batigol/Trezegol comparison, they are definitely in the same league. I'd take Batigol, but Trezeguet achieved more in his career.
YOU decided the stats were screwed, I totally disagree with this. They may not fit your agenda, but Trezeguet was scoring a lot before Italy too. I compared the two players' numbers in the same league. Sure, they had different teams and situations. Somehow you feel Gabigol's later career shouldn't count. He was 34 when he left Italy. Trezeguet was 33. And he too had two unproductive seasons over 30. Yet you feel it's unair to count them for Gabigol but not Trezeguet? How so?

Number of "foreigner of the year" trophies in Italy? 1 for Gabigol, 1 for Trezegol.
Number of scoring trophies in Italy? 1 for Gabigol, 1 for Trezegol.
Number of player of the year awards in Italy? 0 for Gabigol, 1 for Trezegol.
Trezeguet has better european stats too.

They might not be comparable in your head, but since they pretty much have similar stats, similar styles and comparable trophies, I'd say they're VERY comparable.

Evilo got lost there with all those gols. Gabigol wishes he was as good as Trezeguet.

 

[cgf]

I can’t speak to maradona’s Napoli as my football knowledge covers German football in the 70s and then world football from the early-90s, but Trezeguet n Gabigol isn’t exactly a fair comparison. Batistuta never had the support that Trezeguet enjoyed with juve.

 

[The Abusement Park]

So Messi’s numbers = GOAT and CR7’s numbers=overrated piece of trash?

Again I agree that Messi is the GOAT, but CR7 is getting purely disrespected here. It seems like every time CR7 does something there’s always “context” to it, but when Messi does it he’s heralded as some god amongst men.

And this isn’t me saying CR7 is better than Messi, because he isn’t but CR7 is one of the best players to come around in the history of the game.

 

[Deficient Mode]

So Messi’s numbers = GOAT and CR7’s numbers=overrated piece of trash?

Again I agree that Messi is the GOAT, but CR7 is getting purely disrespected here. It seems like every time CR7 does something there’s always “context” to it, but when Messi does it he’s heralded as some god amongst men.

And this isn’t me saying CR7 is better than Messi, because he isn’t but CR7 is one of the best players to come around in the history of the game.

The numbers are only part of why Messi is the GOAT. Incredible that he's the best goal scorer ever when it wasn't even his primary role on his teams. Cristiano can't be given the same benefit.

 

[YNWA14]

This. If you’re just going to regurgitate Christiano’s #s at us and point to his durability you can save your breath. That crap doesn’t convince anyone but CR7-fanboys

This is where I don't understand people sometimes. Why do you have to be a CR7 'fanboy' to appreciate his career?

Also you're kidding yourself if you don't think that Messi's "primary role" on his team is to score goals.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Also you're kidding yourself if you don't think that Messi's "primary role" on his team is to score goals.

Watch the games

 

[YNWA14]

Good one.

I will retort with "watch the games without blinders".

Messi is just as much the focal point of his team as Ronaldo is. They operate differently on the pitch but there's a reason that Messi always leads his teams in shots, and significantly.

 

[cgf]

This is where I don't understand people sometimes. Why do you have to be a CR7 'fanboy' to appreciate his career?

Also you're kidding yourself if you don't think that Messi's "primary role" on his team is to score goals.

Where did I say that? I said that just regurgitating the #s and pointing to his durability wouldn't convince anyone but fanboys. Doesn't mean I don't still appreciate his career...even if I do like to tease his fans for his impotence when up against Jogi's boys

 

[cgf]

So Messi’s numbers = GOAT and CR7’s numbers=overrated piece of trash?

Again I agree that Messi is the GOAT, but CR7 is getting purely disrespected here. It seems like every time CR7 does something there’s always “context” to it, but when Messi does it he’s heralded as some god amongst men.

And this isn’t me saying CR7 is better than Messi, because he isn’t but CR7 is one of the best players to come around in the history of the game.

tbh I don't think Messi as GOAT is as clear cut as everyone else because I take his #s & durability with the same grain of salt. However Messi has a strong case for GOAT purely on his play, so he doesn't fall out of the conversation when we take his #s & longevity off the table.

 

[YNWA14]

I think it's pretty silly to take "numbers and durability" out of the equation. They're a hallmark of any ATG. Why isn't the best player ever just the player who had the best game of all time then? Just their very peak possible performance in one game?

 

[cgf]

I think it's pretty silly to take "numbers and durability" out of the equation. They're a hallmark of any ATG. Why isn't the best player ever just the player who had the best game of all time then? Just their very peak possible performance in one game?

I don't take them out of the equation entirely, but they have to be taken with a huge grain of salt due to the advances in medicine, rule changes, the concentration of talent in top teams, evolution of tactics, etc.

 

[YNWA14]

I still don't understand why that means they need to be taken with a huge grain of salt. There were plenty of extremely durable and prolific players in the past (I know you love Gerd Muller for example). If anything the evolution of tactics would, imo, benefit defending moreso than attacking and there's never been more talent in the game than now; the concentration can definitely be looked at in relation to the overall talent/athletic/coaching level.

It feels like in any sport there are always reasons to discount what the current generation is doing when referencing past greats like nobody could possibly be better than the nostalgic greats of the previous era. Even though it's simply logic that as time goes on (with diminishing returns of course), and advances are made in every aspect of the sport, the players should be better. Not just the top players, but the general level of play.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Good one.

I will retort with "watch the games without blinders".

Messi is just as much the focal point of his team as Ronaldo is. They operate differently on the pitch but there's a reason that Messi always leads his teams in shots, and significantly.

Leading your team in shots doesn't mean you don't contribute even more in non-shooting positions

 

[Evilo]

I can’t speak to maradona’s Napoli as my football knowledge covers German football in the 70s and then world football from the early-90s, but Trezeguet n Gabigol isn’t exactly a fair comparison. Batistuta never had the support that Trezeguet enjoyed with juve.

Stats AND individual awards say they're totally a fair comparison. Eye test too.

 

[The Abusement Park]

tbh I don't think Messi as GOAT is as clear cut as everyone else because I take his #s & durability with the same grain of salt. However Messi has a strong case for GOAT purely on his play, so he doesn't fall out of the conversation when we take his #s & longevity off the table.

That’s still not my point. On this boat whenever someone even remotely says something negative about Messi they get bombarded with hate and can’t believe someone would doubt Messi’s ability.

But on the other hand whenever someone brings up something impressive or incredible that Cristiano has done, he’s always criticized or there has to be some sort of context that negates what he did. There’s just this blind ignorant hate for CR7 here.

 

[YNWA14]

Leading your team in shots doesn't mean you don't contribute even more in non-shooting positions

Just because Messi has incredible vision and reading of the game on the ball doesn't mean that he's not their primary goal threat (always leads his teams in shots and goals). But make no mistake, Messi is one of the more selfish players in the world (and that's not a slight, he does it because he can). Just watch him in any game; he often dribbles when he can pass and often shoots when he can pass too. The thing is that his dribbling and shooting are both at a level where he can get away with it. He has an incredible understanding for the offensive side of the game however and that is supplemental to his goalscoring and dribbling abilities.

 

[cgf]

It means just what it says, it’s easier than ever to be durable as a top player than ever before. Not only because your legs are put through less abuse, but because they’re more likely to recover fully from injuries and to do so quicker than the legends of days past. Never mind the superior conditioning.

Speaking of gerd, can you even imagine the kind of numbers he’d have accumulated if he had the conditioning to play 60 games a year, if he got growth hormones as a kid, if bayern’s Talent advantage was even greater, and if someone had taken his alcoholism seriously before he had retired? Cause I can’t. That’s why we have to take current #s and longevity with a grain of salt

 

[cgf]

Stats AND individual awards say they're totally a fair comparison. Eye test too.

...which is an argument for Gabigol since he did so with less help...

 

[cgf]

That’s still not my point. On this boat whenever someone even remotely says something negative about Messi they get bombarded with hate and can’t believe someone would doubt Messi’s ability.

But on the other hand whenever someone brings up something impressive or incredible that Cristiano has done, he’s always criticized or there has to be some sort of context that negates what he did. There’s just this blind ignorant hate for CR7 here.

Probably cause the people who hype CR7 on here usually can’t help themselves from taking silly shots at Messi.