GDT: Flames @ Sharks: 8:30pm MT - SN360

[Calculon]

Monahan for MacKinnon

 

[Volica]

Monahan for MacKinnon

I'll even throw in Klimchuk and Poirier.

 

[Skobel24]

Monahan will rebound. However, I really do think adjusting the lines could be beneficial.

 

[Bosnian Beast]

Monahan for MacKinnon

Why would Colorado trade NHL star Nathan MacKinnon for AHL center Sean Monahan?

 

[Calculon]

I'll even throw in Klimchuk and Poirier.

I'd still do that trade

Why would Colorado trade NHL star Nathan MacKinnon for AHL center Sean Monahan?

Because allegedly, 'MacKinnon is dumber than a doorknob'.

Dumb NHL'er > 3rd line AHL centre

 

[Lunatik]

Why would Colorado trade NHL star Nathan MacKinnon for AHL center Sean Monahan?

a 3rd line AHL center at that

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

What. You're saying that if a centre scores goals, they aren't playing their position properly? That's ridiculous hyperbole or a ridiculous opinion.

I am saying that whether or not a centre scores goals, scoring goals is not a measure of how well you are playing your position. Likewise for a defenseman, I love Giordano but him scoring 20+ goals last year was not a measure of his play, just as Brodie scoring only six was not a measure of his. Of course you would rather all players score goals than not score goals. Backlund's lack of goal scoring is frustrating, but not a detriment to his ability to centre his line. Monahan's goal scoring is great, but not a boon to his ability to centre his line.

I should clarify. I don't mean production-wise

.

I should clarify as well. I don't mean production-wise, either. Monahan was just plain bad a calendar year ago. He picked it up later in the year when Gaudreau was returned to his line.

I would tend to agree that Monahan's two-way play is a little over-rated, but to pretend he's a floater with a good shot and good hands around the net is just weird,

He's a floater relative to the standard set by the ~sixty best centres in the NHL. Of course he's responsible to an extent, but on a relative scale he's pretty weak in aspects of hockey that don't involve scoring or winning faceoffs (and you all know how little I value faceoffs with respect to team success)

If you look at tape of Monahan's game when he's going well, there's a lot more to it.

A lot more to it relative to whom?

As someone who doesnt see or read much about the Heat and our prospects, what makes some people so confident that Jankowski could drop right into this lineup and make a difference... possibly even on the 1st line?

As far as I know there are only some great exceptions when kids get called up and suddenly are killing it on the top 6 and those guys get drafted in top of first round and make team fairly early anyways.

What are you guys seeing that the Treliving and Gulutzan arent seeing?

I have watched a ton of Jankowski and I am confident because he possesses a collection of beneficial functional traits that I believe are crucial to winning at the centre ice position. And I am pretty sure Treliving is well aware of Jankowski's ability level.

Bennett [is] playing dumb hockey.

Sorry but Bennett getting called for a pair of B.S. phantom penalties in consecutive games =/= dumb hockey. Watch the tape on his "penalties" against both the Blackhawks and the Sharks, neither is a penalty in actuality.

Yeah people need to lay off Monahan. It's embarrssing. People call him a bad two way Center except he had a GF% of like 57 last year...

Monahan had a 5v5 GF% of 51.9% last season. Away from PPG Gaudreau his 5v5 GF% was only 31.8%. And outscoring your problems doesn't make you strong both ways. It just means you are outscoring your problems which is exactly what happened last year.

Do you think Bennett would play better if he has to play the other teams best? I sure don't. In fact all of a sudden he would probably look like he was struggling mightily.

I think Bennett would play better if he has to play with OUR team's best winger.

As for Jankowski, we saw him in pre-season.

Preseason.

He's good but he still has weaknesses in his game. Throwing him out against Lindholm, Vlasic, Pietrangelo instead of guys like Kylington or Morrisey and you think he will be able to have success, let alone be able to not look completely out of place?

I do. And that line is hardly "having success" right now.

Sean is so underrated it's funny.

Sean is so overrated it's funny.

Should we trade Monahan for Saad?

Saad is also so overrated it's funny.

I agree completely, Monahan is definitely not as bad defensively as he is made out to be (and thank you for using GF%, its a much better stat than CF%,

A stat directly influenced by goaltending and shooting luck is a much better stat than one influenced by the ability of the skaters on the ice to carry the play.

Monahan for MacKinnon

hah. I wish. MacKinnon and Gaudreau dominated even with a (relative to the scope of the tournament) scrub like Nugent Hopkins dragging them down.

 

[Anglesmith]

I am saying that whether or not a centre scores goals, scoring goals is not a measure of how well you are playing your position. Likewise for a defenseman, I love Giordano but him scoring 20+ goals last year was not a measure of his play, just as Brodie scoring only six was not a measure of his. Of course you would rather all players score goals than not score goals. Backlund's lack of goal scoring is frustrating, but not a detriment to his ability to centre his line. Monahan's goal scoring is great, but not a boon to his ability to centre his line.

Okay, but that's not what mutually exclusive means, so I'd be more careful in what you say. Mutually exclusive means one cannot happen if the other does and vice versa.

I should clarify as well. I don't mean production-wise, either. Monahan was just plain bad a calendar year ago. He picked it up later in the year when Gaudreau was returned to his line.

True, but I think this is a low we've never seen before.

He's a floater relative to the standard set by the ~sixty best centres in the NHL. Of course he's responsible to an extent, but on a relative scale he's pretty weak in aspects of hockey that don't involve scoring or winning faceoffs (and you all know how little I value faceoffs with respect to team success)

I don't think so. I think he just plays a pretty quiet, positional style.

A lot more to it relative to whom?

Relative to what you're claiming.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Here's why advanced stats people usually come away looking silly... They look at the smallest piece of information and use it to validate there pre-held notions of players. Because they can always find a stat that confirms what they feel about a player. And then they end up neglecting the necessary context required with that stat.

When you put Monahans accomplishments on a list and compare them to Jankowskis at the same age it is laughable to even mention them in the same breath.

Jankowski looked good until near the end of the pre-season. He struggled against the big boys. Monahan won't be in his draft + 5 until next year. If you think that playing against top pairings in the AHL and playing top shutdown pairings in the NHL is even in the same universe then you are completely out to lunch. Sorry.

If Monahan had a better center to take away the Defensive focus away from him then all of a sudden his corsi would skyrocket and he would look dominate. That's because he's a top line player. He's just struggling right now. Everyone struggles. But he's a very, very good young player.

Like you said. He had a 5on5 GF of 52%. While being on a team with the worst offensive depth in the NHL (no other line in the league was more critical to the success of their team than Gaudreau and Monahan and consequently are game planned around). 21 year old centres on bad teams that are the focus of the other team do not put up 52% GF. It just doesn't happen. Darryl Sutter called him one of the best centres in the West. Period. If the Flames had a Tavares or something to take the pressure away from Monahan he could carry a second or third line (in ways Bennett can't yet). But you can't see that because he's playing against the Brodie's and Gio's and not the Engellands and Widemans.

And when he played away from Gaudreau he played with terrible players and only very briefly. So they are basically useless stats IMO. Ferland, Colbourne, Baertschi, Hudler basically the only half decent guys we had all showed chemistry with Sean. But expecting him to produce like a top line Center with those guys at that stage is laughable. There is a reason the kid made the U23 team with a staff of like 4 GMs.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Okay, but that's not what mutually exclusive means, so I'd be more careful in what you say. Mutually exclusive means one cannot happen if the other does and vice versa.

Fair enough, I did not choose my words well.

Here's why advanced stats people usually come away looking silly... They look at the smallest piece of information and use it to validate there pre-held notions of players. Because they can always find a stat that confirms what they feel about a player. And then they end up neglecting the necessary context required with that stat.

Yawn.

I probably have missed at most, twenty games of Sean Monahan's career Stats really have nothing to do with it.

When you put Monahans accomplishments on a list and compare them to Jankowskis at the same age it is laughable to even mention them in the same breath.

In the year 2006, the same could have been said about Jay Bouwmeester V Duncan Keith.

Jankowski looked good until near the end of the pre-season.

Pre-season

Did you miss the part where Jankowski spent every minute of preseason tied to anchors like Korpikoski? Or the part where it's pre-season

Monahan won't be in his draft + 5 until next year. If you think that playing against top pairings in the AHL and playing top shutdown pairings in the NHL is even in the same universe then you are completely out to lunch.

No, I don't. But I also don't think playing with AHLers is in the same universe as playing with Johnny Frickin Gaudreau

If Monahan had a better center to take away the Defensive focus away from him then all of a sudden his corsi would skyrocket and he would look dominate.

Glad to see someone agree that Monahan needs a centre.

When Darryl Sutter calls him one of the best centres in the league. Period.

And when he played away from Gaudreau he played with terrible players and only very briefly.

Oh my, the excuses. There were four centres on this team, and not all of them played with Gaudreau. The only centre who struggled more than Monahan without Gaudreau was Granlund. None of ROOKIE Bennett, Backlund, or Stajan looked as helpless as Monahan.

 

[Mr Snrub]

Not sure if this belongs to the Matthew Tkachuk thread, mods feel free to move it if so.

But I'm curious, does anyone think Tkachuk's play has improved lately because he's been playing with Backlund and Frolik, like Colborne at the end of last year? Personally I think it's been a bit of that as well as a bit of him just getting more acclimated to the NHL, but what do the rest of you think?

 

[MonarchFlames]

Personally I believe that line just works so well together all 3 players on the line play a similar type game and gel together. Of course backlund and frolik are helping tkachuk but tkachuk is doing very well for himself in my opinion.

 

[Calculon]

Millions had seriously better be Millionsing here

 

[BigRangy]

Not sure if this belongs to the Matthew Tkachuk thread, mods feel free to move it if so.

But I'm curious, does anyone think Tkachuk's play has improved lately because he's been playing with Backlund and Frolik, like Colborne at the end of last year? Personally I think it's been a bit of that as well as a bit of him just getting more acclimated to the NHL, but what do the rest of you think?

Half and half I imagine. Backlund and Frolik could probably make Mason Raymond look great.

 

[Bosnian Beast]

Millions had seriously better be Millionsing here

****sucker, and he was doing so good.

 

[Lunatik]

Millions had seriously better be Millionsing here

Kings are a more physical team, same reason he drew in against St. Louis and played well.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I'd sit Kevin if we are sitting someone for Grossmann. Haven't been that impressed with him the last couple games.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I'd sit Kevin if we are sitting someone for Grossmann. Haven't been that impressed with him the last couple games.

I think he's looked quite good. Still makes solid decisions pretty consistently, and he's decently physical. Certainly more physical than Kulak, if physicality is the concern with this upcoming game.

 

[RedHot]

Millions had seriously better be Millionsing here

Every time it seems the Flames take a step on the right direction personnel wise, they go ahead and reverse it in no time.

What has Grossman done to even deserve a second of ice time? Kulak Engelland was dominant, Jokkipakka and Hamilton worked very well together, and Giordano and Brodie were starting to look like the pairing we all know.

Where does Grossman fit? Every one of those pairs can handle themselves. NG is literally a boat anchor. Literally a huge piece of metal designed to hold a ship in place.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Devils advocate, but wasn't Grossmann actually pretty decent last time he played?

 

[Bosnian Beast]

It is important to keep in mind that this might just be Millions musing to himself on Twitter, as Calculon said. We don't know anything for certain at this point regarding NG and being put into the lineup. If he does draw in, it'll be like II and MM said - for physicality and because he didn't have that bad of a game against St. Louis. I would personally prefer he stay scratched, but that's just my $0.02.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Devils advocate, but wasn't Grossmann actually pretty decent last time he played?

The team played very well in that game however it came at the expense of solid top 4 (that was when Gulutzan decided to promote Wideman from pressbox to first pair/ Engelland to second pair and demote Hamilton to third pair).

Overall the priority should be to keep the top 4 as solid as possible, and since Kulak-Engelland are coming off a stellar game as the third pair it wouldn't make sense to split them up either. I'm not sure I want Grossmann in the top 4.

 

[Dack]

Fair enough, I did not choose my words well.



Yawn.

I probably have missed at most, twenty games of Sean Monahan's career Stats really have nothing to do with it.



In the year 2006, the same could have been said about Jay Bouwmeester V Duncan Keith.


Pre-season

Did you miss the part where Jankowski spent every minute of preseason tied to anchors like Korpikoski? Or the part where it's pre-season



No, I don't. But I also don't think playing with AHLers is in the same universe as playing with Johnny Frickin Gaudreau



Glad to see someone agree that Monahan needs a centre.

Oh my, the excuses. There were four centres on this team, and not all of them played with Gaudreau. The only centre who struggled more than Monahan without Gaudreau was Granlund. None of ROOKIE Bennett, Backlund, or Stajan looked as helpless as Monahan.

I don't know why anyone who so much as views an advanced stat, is somehow proven as to not watch games it's a dumb and childish assumption. Before I had even looked into Sean Monahan's stats I had some questions about him, I posted this in his draft thread after his 30 goal season: "Maybe a nicer David Backes is a good comparison? Sean and David are both excellent finishers but neither are really capable of creating their own offence they are both strong, big bodied, pot garbage goals inside the crease and are very good defensively. I see Sean as more of a 1B personally he can play #1 center but its better if he plays on the second line."

My opinion of him has basically stayed the same minus calling him good defensively. He's smart, has a good shot and at times shows great displays of vision but he doesn't bring the full package he doesn't have the speed, puck handling or puck protection in order to be a true number one center. Also for someone touted as a two-way player he's quite disappointing defensively. I still think he can be a good 1B or second line center, but like I said in that post 1.5 years ago he doesn't create his own offence. His inability to really create his own chances isn't a huge deal when Gaudreau is on because Johnny can create a huge amount of chances for him but when Johnny is struggling boy does it show. Without Johnny just playing with say Frolik and Tkachuk, I doubt Monahan puts up much better stats than Backlund would. That's a huge problem considering how much we're paying him and that his biggest strength is offence.

Finally before someone says it I'm not a Monahan hater. I'd love it if he magically morphed into an elite 1C and started putting up 40 goal 70 point seasons while being great defensively, sadly I don't think he will. On the upside though I do think Bennett has the potential to be a true 1C.

 

[BigRangy]

Yeah Grossmann wasn't that bad last time out. Jokipakka hasn't been anything special this year, but I still feel like he is definitely in the top 6 for this team.

Kulak should also be in more than out.

 

[InfinityIggy]

The team played very well in that game however it came at the expense of solid top 4 (that was when Gulutzan decided to promote Wideman from pressbox to first pair/ Engelland to second pair and demote Hamilton to third pair).

Overall the priority should be to keep the top 4 as solid as possible, and since Kulak-Engelland are coming off a stellar game as the third pair it wouldn't make sense to split them up either. I'm not sure I want Grossmann in the top 4.

My thoughts exactly. I want to keep Kulak - Engelland together but the thought of Grossman on the middle pairing is..unsettling.