Prospect Info: Flames prospect rankings: #8 RUN-OFF POLL

Status
Not open for further replies.

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,087
12,866
59.6097709,16.5425901
Um, First of all, a bottom pair two-way D is still more valuable than a bottom line forward like Panik.

Second, Kulak and Wotherspoon both still have #3 and #4 upside respectively. Nothing in their skillsets holds them back from those projections. Heck, Kulak outproduced Klimchuk in less games in the AHL at the same age while playing the less offensive position.



So? That's only three years older than Klimchuk. In three years what will Klimchuk add that will put him ahead of Hathaway? Their skating is at a similar level, their two-way game is at a similar level, except Hathaway is a total ****-disturber with perfect size and a net-front presence.

Thats IF Klimchuk only ends up being a Panik level player, as I said before I think he has more upside than that. Also strongly disagree, bottom pairing D are a dime a dozen. Its minute-eating middle and top pairing guys that are ultra valuable. Bottom pairing D get cycled through just as often as 4th line players.

Three years is an ocean of development time. It's also an apples to oranges comparison, Hathaway plays an entirely different game. I strongly disagree that Hathaway has the defensive acumen that Klimchuk possesses. Klimchuk was trusted as a PKer in all sorts of situations as a rookie pro. That is uncommon.
 
Last edited:

SmellOfVictory

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
10,959
653
Thats IF Klimchuk only ends up being a Panik level player, as I said before I think he has more upside than that. Also strongly disagree, bottom pairing D are a dime a dozen. Its minute-eating middle and top pairing guys that are ultra valuable. Bottom pairing D get cycled through just as often as 4th line players.

Three years is an ocean of development time. It's also an apples to oranges comparison, Hathaway plays an entirely different game. I strongly disagree that Hathaway has the defensive acumen that Klimchuk possesses. Klimchuk was trusted as a PKer in all sorts of situations as a rookie pro. That is uncommon.

Not weighing in on Klimchuk per se, but I think bottom pairing dmen are more important than 4th liners, as well. If your 4th line sucks, you could theoretically not even play them (or at least limit their minutes to <10); you don't really have that choice with bottom pairing D.
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,087
12,866
59.6097709,16.5425901
Not weighing in on Klimchuk per se, but I think bottom pairing dmen are more important than 4th liners, as well. If your 4th line sucks, you could theoretically not even play them (or at least limit their minutes to <10); you don't really have that choice with bottom pairing D.

That is true, but as we saw with Hartley for example, you can limit your bottom pairings minutes and give them favorable matchups. There are certain bottom pairing guys, that yes are more valuable than your average 4th line player. I see Engelland as such a player.

Either way, its true that bottom pairing defenders come and go quite often and rarely stick around with one team more than a season or two, the same as your average 4th line guy.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
7,107
2022 Cup to Calgary
Thats IF Klimchuk only ends up being a Panik level player, as I said before I think he has more upside than that.

As do Wotherspoon and Kulak and for that matter Culkin. You're putting artificial ceilings on them despite them being way, way more proven at the NHL level while giving Klimchuk a pass for producing less offensively than Tyler Wotherspoon at the AHL level.

Also strongly disagree, bottom pairing D are a dime dozen. Its minute-eating middle and top pairing guys that are ultra valuable. Bottom pairing D get cycled through just as often as 4th line players.

Poor bottom pair D cost their team way, way more than poor bottom line forwards. Teams cycle bottom pair D because they are trying to find guys who fit. Which as we've seen with poor players like Butler, Smid, Engelland, Diaz, VS quality bottom pair guys like Schlemko, Nakladal, and Russell, is a significant difference. Teams cycle bottom line forwards because they're basically filler.

Three years is an ocean of development time. It's also an apples an oranges comparison, Hathaway plays an entirely different game.

Again, what will Klimchuk add over three years of dev time to actually put him ahead of Hathaway? Will he add enough offensive skill to be a 25+ point NHLer, when he produced at the same rate offensively as Austin Caroll?

Hathaway being older doesn't change the fact that he can impact the game more now than I can foresee Klimchuk impacting the game. Hathaway does play an entirely different game - a more valuable one where his value-added can influence the flow of a game in multiple ways (as he did against the Sharks) whereas Klimchuk plays a pretty pedestrian type of game.

We have too many prospects who bring things Klimchuk can't or won't. Being vanilla won't stop Klimchuk from being an NHLer but it will stop him from being an especially crucial one.
 

Johnny Hoxville

The Return of a Legend
Jul 15, 2006
37,549
9,343
Calgary
Snipes my only issue with some of your statements is that you state them as facts. Lots of aspects are unknown, especially with prospects. I think the majority of people around here have concerns about Klimchuk, myself included but I am in no way ready to write him off. The fact that the coaching staff praised him game is quite telling.
 

InfinityIggy

Zagidulin's Dad
Jan 30, 2011
36,087
12,866
59.6097709,16.5425901
As do Wotherspoon and Kulak and for that matter Culkin. You're putting artificial ceilings on them despite them being way, way more proven at the NHL level while giving Klimchuk a pass for producing less offensively than Tyler Wotherspoon at the AHL level.

And I can argue that you are placing an 'artificial ceiling' on Klimchuk by basing his future as a pro solely on his rookie seasons production, while not acknowledging the role he was used in. So you aren't making much of a point here.

Poor bottom pair D cost their team way, way more than poor bottom line forwards. Teams cycle bottom pair D because they are trying to find guys who fit. Which as we've seen with poor players like Butler, Smid, Engelland, Diaz, VS quality bottom pair guys like Schlemko, Nakladal, and Russell, is a significant difference. Teams cycle bottom line forwards because they're basically filler.

I don't disagree, and as I said above there are some bottom pairing D who are more valuable than your average 4th liner, but as you have pointed out yourself here with your examples most of them come and go very quickly, just like your average 4th line guy.

Again, what will Klimchuk add over three years of dev time to actually put him ahead of Hathaway? Will he add enough offensive skill to be a 25+ point NHLer, when he produced at the same rate offensively as Austin Caroll?

I think that would be a focus given three full years of development yes, to improve his offensive game. To the 2nd part, see this entire thread.

Hathaway being older doesn't change the fact that he can impact the game more now than I can foresee Klimchuk impacting the game. Hathaway does play an entirely different game - a more valuable one where his value-added can influence the flow of a game in multiple ways (as he did against the Sharks) whereas Klimchuk plays a pretty pedestrian type of game.

It's not a 'fact' if you have to follow it up with 'I forsee'. Enough said on this point, we are going in circles now.

We have too many prospects who bring things Klimchuk can't or won't. Being vanilla won't stop Klimchuk from being an NHLer but it will stop him from being an especially crucial one.

'We have too many prospects who bring things PLAYER X can't or won't.'

This doesn't say very much to me honestly, because it's applicable to a great number of our prospects when you describe them. Different prospects bring different qualities, we have already gone over Klimchuk's. You think Klimchuk's lack of elite attributes will prevent him from being a 'crucial' piece, that is fine.

Only a few of the prospects in our system right at this moment will end up being 'crucial' pieces. So it isn't saying much.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
7,107
2022 Cup to Calgary
And I can argue that you are placing an 'artificial ceiling' on Klimchuk by basing his future as a pro solely on his rookie seasons production, while not acknowledging the role he was used in. So you aren't making much of a point here.

I'm placing his ceiling on the fact that, whether it was Junior or AHL, he's never shown any element to his game that gives him an edge. I'm well aware of the limitations that being used as a depth player may have put on his rookie season, but they're not a sufficient excuse for the lack of offense. They might excuse some of the production, but even depth players can get breakaways and pot a few garbage goals at the AHL level.

I don't disagree, and as I said above there are some bottom pairing D who are more valuable than your average 4th liner, but as you have pointed out yourself here with your examples most of them come and go very quickly, just like your average 4th line guy.

Yeah, but neither Wotherspoon nor Kulak nor Culkin are that kind of bottom pair D that you're aluding to (Keegan Kanzig and Kenney Morrison may be). Again Wotherspoon and Kulak easily have 2nd pair upside but even if they top out as bottom pair guys it'll be closer to a guy like Jokipakka or Schlemko - guys you're not terrified of moving up to the #4D spot if there's an injury. A lot more valuable than a 4th liner or even utility 3rd liner. (Note: Frolik/Backlund are utility 2nd liners. Highly unlikely Klimchuk gets to that level)

The importance of bottom pair D can be evidenced in last year's SCF, where the Polak and Dillon pairing were pretty much the difference between winning and losing the Cup.

I think that would be a focus given three full years of development yes, to improve his offensive game.

To what extent though? Klimchuk is at an age just short of where forwards begin to plateau offensively. Even if he has a jump in his production with better linemates and power play time, you're overestimating how much better his individual offensive ability will get, which is clearly below a guy like Poirier who's projecting towards a third liner. Ability is not measured by stats, but Klimchuk doesn't ace the eye test either. His best asset is away from the puck, but that's not enough to separate from the pack. Defensive ability peaks later in forwards, so the pack will only get better defensively and catch up to Klimchuk.

This doesn't say very much to me honestly, because it's applicable to a great number of our prospects when you describe them. Different prospects bring different qualities, we have already gone over Klimchuk's.

Yes, different prospects bring different qualities, but a prospect has to separate himself from the pack somehow. It's sort of like what the knock on Wotherspoon has been the past few years - do something to make us think you have value added. The difference is Wotherspoon plays a much more crucial position and has shown NHL competence as early as when he was Klimchuk's age.
 
Last edited:

Skobel24

#Ignited
May 23, 2008
16,789
920
Winnipeg
Klimchuk is smart enough and strong enough defensively to become a typical 4th line penalty killing type guy. His work ethic is something a lot of teams would like. I think he just needs a few more years with a bigger role.
 

FLAMESFAN

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
4,939
1,025
Klimchuk is smart enough and strong enough defensively to become a typical 4th line penalty killing type guy. His work ethic is something a lot of teams would like. I think he just needs a few more years with a bigger role.

I think most of us would agree with that. But that's not what you're hoping for when you're voting in your top 10. His upside is very limited, while his downside is respectable.
Honestly doesn't belong in this discussion yet, and is disrespecting Hickey/Mang.

I'm taking some of the newer toys before he comes into play, and I hope each additional thread doesn't become about Klimchuk.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad