Fire Luke Richardson

[ClydeLee]

The argument was that he had "too little offense" for a top pairing D. I was refuting that point, and the point that "he has never shown offense". Zdeno Chara only ever topped out at 52 points. Was he a top pairing D?

You also realize that most points ANY D in ANY league collect are.....getting the pucks to forwards making plays?

Is 52 supposed to be low in the 2010s? What are you talking about with these points. That's what I dont get.

Yeah it's different from Vlasic a guy with 8 pts max in college a season. There's nothing of his shot ability, selection, or play that shows him hitting 50 in this era. He jumps up to plays when required and moves the puck put well. But in the NHL to hit that, you have to create. Ekholm even on Edmonton is shy of 50 pts.

Regardless I do think he can be 1st pair called. But I feel some have said give Vlasic time, but there's not been actual displays of offense anywhere in his past to exepect it to massively grow

 

[Hawkaholic]

Jones is a top pairing Dman
Mrazek is a real goalie.

There's terrible, but there's plenty of company with teams that had neither.

It's not straight talent either. Ownership has decimated more teams than gms ever could.

This year's sharks are just as bad but have managed to stay out of the terribly terrible all time stat categories since their start. 21' Ducks. 07 BJs, a bunch of Ott, Buf, AZ, and FLA teams. 07 Flyers, 20' Detroit, 17 Van, 15 Devils trainwreck from ownership down, etc. Is Radulov talent, Semin in Carolina, those were subtraction by addition on rosters in many cases.

This ownership still takes care of the players with all the bells and whistles too. It's not like TB in Torts last year when they're gutting the depth and taking the floor out as they get ready to sell in an already toxic situation.

Hawks are terrible, but there's been alot of terrible the last 19 seasons.

Failed to mention any teams with 1 top 6 player. Jones is not a top pairing Dman, not the way he has played for 3/4 of the year. Mrazek is as average as they come, he's no top flight no. 1. Lol

This team is awful, just as bad as SJ, you are right, yet, we have won more games miraculously.

Our team is as bad as most of the terrible teams in the cap era, if not worse after all the injuries. Lack of talent all around, means lack of wins, goals, and a lot of GA.

 

[Chelios]

Failed to mention any teams with 1 top 6 player. Jones is not a top pairing Dman, not the way he has played for 3/4 of the year.

Yeah, this is just straight up wrong. Jones is absolutely a top pairing Dman. Some people are honestly just irrational when it comes to Jones.

 

[hockeydoug]

Failed to mention any teams with 1 top 6 player. Jones is not a top pairing Dman, not the way he has played for 3/4 of the year. Mrazek is as average as they come, he's no top flight no. 1. Lol

This team is awful, just as bad as SJ, you are right, yet, we have won more games miraculously.

Our team is as bad as most of the terrible teams in the cap era, if not worse after all the injuries. Lack of talent all around, means lack of wins, goals, and a lot of GA.

I think you're overlooking some of the toxic rosters and toxic ownership of the last19 seasons. As with Jones, we'll agree to disagree on what a good player is.

It often takes more than low skill to have a terrible team. Semin was high skill or a trainwreck, he counts both ways for example.

And that's part of the Richardson knock too, he's got the support of the front office and ownership (spending on all the amenities) and he's underperforming a very low bar to advance some of the kids and a team culture. Several dozen bad cap era teams did not have those advantages.

How does a coach last 2 years in any sport without establishing a team culture. Even bad coaches had a team culture more often than not.

 

[Hawkaholic]

I think you're overlooking some of the toxic rosters and toxic ownership of the last19 seasons. As with Jones, we'll agree to disagree on what a good player is.

It often takes more than low skill to have a terrible team. Semin was high skill or a trainwreck, he counts both ways for example.

And that's part of the Richardson knock too, he's got the support of the front office and ownership (spending on all the amenities) and he's underperforming a very low bar to advance some of the kids and a team culture. Several dozen bad cap era teams did not have those advantages.

How does a coach last 2 years in any sport without establishing a team culture. Even bad coaches had a team culture more often than not.

Very few rosters are as bad as this one, just a fact. 1 top 6 player who is an 18 year old rookie, followed by a couple maybe top 9 players in Kurashev and Dickenson. After that, pretty much all 4th liners and players that would be healthy scratches on pretty much every playoff roster. 2 decent Dmen who you could argue are pretty good, but then zero real NHL Dmen after them. A average goalie who has stood on his head every so often to help win games we shouldn't have.

I'm honestly not too sure what you see on this roster that makes you think it is anything but one of the worst rosters since the cap started. It doesn't matter what the front office and ownership do off the ice, it doesn't provide you with skill or talent on the ice. Skill and talent help you win, help you score, and help you defend more than anything else.

I don't even care about the coach. I'm arguing with you about how this team is one of the worst teams in the cap era, talent wise. What kind of culture do you want? lol When you have one of the worst rosters ever assembled, its going to be a losing culture regardless of who the coach is.

 

[Pez68]

They just have no identity. A coach should be molding the team into what he wants them to be, how he wants them to play, implementing his systems. He's had two seasons, and I couldn't tell you what he wants from his players, or his team, or what systems they run.

Early in the season, it looked like they were running an aggressive box on the PK, and it was fairly successful. Recently, it looks like they're running a passive diamond, and the PK has been shit. Which is the PK they actually want? Beats me.

The power play personnel and structure is dogshit, as well. Tyler Johnson with his muffin of a shot and washed up hands should never have been the bumper. It never made sense and it never worked. Korchinski should have been getting PP1 time. Their forward talent is shit, so run 2D on the power play if you insist on Seth Jones being out there... Who cares? Let Bedard roam around, don't staple him to the left wall... The power play should be way more freelance with their personnel. Lots of fluidity and movement. Try and get Bedard looks in the slot...

Bedard not taking a lot of faceoffs bothers me too. He's never going to improve if he's not taking draws.

 

[Hawkaholic]

They just have no identity.

Of course not, it's a bunch of non-talented players, the majority of them who shouldn't even be in the NHL, mis-cast into roles they shouldn't be playing in. Bedard is the only player on PP1 who should even be on a 1st unit NHL PP. I don't know how you fit square pegs into round holes, and expect them to be what they aren't.

Again, I could careless about Richardson as a coach, but no coach could do anything with this group of garbage players.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The "identity" as far as finishing in 12th would be something like what they were with Bedard out, a bunch of grinders grinding along and "playing hard" to lose many games 2-1. You also wouldn't have Korchinski on the roster for that sort of team because he is a teenager as well and not well suited for that. With Bedard, you get a guy that can score but have a 1C that is poor defensively (makes sense given age). They are (very slightly) more likely to win but also more likely to get blown out. You're not gonna be a dynamic offensive team or whatever because you don't have top six forwards.

 

[statswatcher]

Jones is a top pairing Dman

first point is incorrect, so i am not reading the rest.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Can someone please name 64 NHL defensemen that are better than Seth Jones. There are 32 top pairings nowadays. If you're one of the top 64 defensemen in the NHL you are are a top pairing defenseman in the NHL. Whether or not he's YOUR ideal top pairing defenseman is irrelevant.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Can someone please name 64 NHL defensemen that are better than Seth Jones. There are 32 top pairings nowadays. If you're one of the top 64 defensemen in the NHL you are are a top pairing defenseman in the NHL. Whether or not he's YOUR ideal top pairing defenseman is irrelevant.

Thats not how it works. There aren't 32 #1 Dmen in the NHL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's semantics. Jones is clearly the Number 1 Defenseman on the Blackhawks, whether you think he is overplaying his role or not.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Thats not how it works. There aren't 32 #1 Dmen in the NHL.

It actually is how it works in reality though. Because there are 32 NHL teams.

That doesn't mean every team HAS a legit number 1, or a legit top pair, because the talent isn't spread evenly across all the teams.

 

[ClydeLee]

Sports terminology is stupid because terms don't have 1 set meaning and get talked about in circles.

Like generational or elite

 

[ColbyChaos]

People really seem to misconstrue the difference between an elite Dman (aka top 10 in his position) and a #1 Dman.

Is Jones good enough to be a #1 D on a few teams? Yes.

Is he good enough to be a top 10 D in the league? No


There’s a difference between the two and it’s ridiculous seeing those two used interchangeably by posters here

 

[Chuck Testa]

Vlasic > Jones

 

[Northernhawk]

People really seem to misconstrue the difference between an elite Dman (aka top 10 in his position) and a #1 Dman.

Is Jones good enough to be a #1 D on a few teams? Yes.
Is he good enough to be a top 10 D in the league? No


There’s a difference between the two and it’s ridiculous seeing those two used interchangeably by posters here

He’s a top 30 defenfeman…therefore he could be that #1 on maybe three of the NHL teams

 

[Hawkaholic]

It actually is how it works in reality though. Because there are 32 NHL teams.

That doesn't mean every team HAS a legit number 1, or a legit top pair, because the talent isn't spread evenly across all the teams.

exactly

 

[Northernhawk]

People really seem to misconstrue the difference between an elite Dman (aka top 10 in his position) and a #1 Dman.

Is Jones good enough to be a #1 D on a few teams? Yes.

Is he good enough to be a top 10 D in the league? No


There’s a difference between the two and it’s ridiculous seeing those two used interchangeably by posters here

He’s a top 30 defenceman…therefore he could be that #1 on maybe three of the NHL teams

 

[statswatcher]

i took the 64 defensemen with the highest toi/gp among those with at least 999 minutes played since 2021-22. then i ranked them by a smattering of metrics. this was where seth jones ranked:
toi 5459:40 (18th)
toi/gp 25:23 (3rd!)
shots/60 all strength 5.95 (23rd)
shots/60 5v5 5.53 (22nd)
p/60 all strength 1.31 (44th)
p/60 5v5 0.92 (43rd)
CF% all strength 50.49 (39th)
CF% 5v5 47.86 (44th)
GF% all strength 44.46 (57th)
GF% 5v5 42.26 (64th)
PDO all strength 0.972 (64th)
offensive zone start % all strength 51.65 (27th)
offensive zone start % 5v5 51.2 (28th)
cap hit $9,500,000 ( T-4th among all Dmen & T-19th among ALL PLAYERS)

seth jones' playtime is proportional to his pay. unfortunately he is overplayed and overpaid for the results he gets on the ice. i once in a fit of anger claimed he was not a top 4 defenseman on a stanley cup winning team. soberly looking a these numbers, that was maybe harsh. at the same time, there is no argument to be made from these numbers that he is a number one option. if he is a top two defenseman, then he must be solidly a second guy to compliment an elite left handed number one. i have my doubts that he is even that. i think seth's ideal role is as a really good second pair offensive defenseman that plays the powerplay. if the team had a right hander who could play big minutes in front of him, he wouldn't get so much grief. his contract precludes him from slotting into that role however. he is paid like not just a top guy but the top guy, yet he produces like a good complimentary piece.

to bring this around to the thread topic, the best argument for seth jones being a bonafide top pair nhl defenseman is the same argument for luke richardson being an nhl head coach: they've both been given absolutley nothing to work with with zero expectation of success. thus my line is basically the same on both: let's see how they do with a half-way decent blackhawks roster around them. maybe with an actual forward core to play behind good old 9.5 could prove me wrong and carry his weight. maybe luke richardson could have a winning season. time will tell.

 

[Hattrick Kane]

Jones is a top pairing dman. Jones should not be #1 PPQB, he’s really bad at it. He would probably benefit from having his minutes cut a touch as well.

I believe all of these statements to be true.

 

[Chelios]

Jones is a top pairing dman. Jones should not be #1 PPQB, he’s really bad at it. He would probably benefit from having his minutes cut a touch as well.

I believe all of these statements to be true.

Perfectly reasonable take.

 

[TLEH]

Honestly, Bedard is usually blanketed on the PP, but I still found this tweet hilarious.

 

[Chelios]

No problem with people arguing whether Jones is a #1 D or not (I personally think he is a low end). But to say he isn’t a top pairing defenseman is just flat out wrong.

 

[TLEH]

He's just an extremely toolsy, athletic guy, who does a lot of brain dead, head down hockey. Those are my least favorite players to watch and they age like shit.

He still has had a pretty good back half of his season. Still think Vlasic is our #1 now though.