Rumor: Far Too Negative...

arby18

Registered User
Jun 12, 2010
481
2
Care to elaborate on the questionable decisions.
Not saying they've been perfected, I'm just curious what moves you didn't agree with.

BTW I have no intention on jumping on you and saying you're wrong, because thought out dissenting opinions make this place more interesting.

Certainly.

Noel:
-Playing Olli and Mittens on 2nd line
-Having James Wright play anywhere other than 4th line
-Refusal to rest Pavelec in b2b's where he obviously struggles
-Whatever happened to make Burmi want to head to KHL (Noel shares some of blame at least,as does Burmi)
-Being unable to establish an "identity" with the Jets after 2+ years at the helm.

Chevy:
-A few terrible contracts (Pavelec and Jokinen) offset the good ones (Kane, Ladd etc...)
-the unwillingness to part with a member of the Thrashers core who haven't won anything together
-Raiding the waiver wire like a kid in a candy store, but then leaving Jussi Jokinen alone
-Refusing to move pending UFA's for assets to assist in the #5yearplan rebuild
-Drafting Lukas Sutter in the 2nd round

Those are a few things that, IMO, are at least worth discussing as potential mistakes. Obviously I'm not in the boardroom or behind the bench, but as an invested fan these are a few examples of things that I disagreed with. Feel free to disagree with some or all of them if you like.

There is lots to like though. Having Kane and Bogo locked up for a long time. The Frolik trade was money. It looks like I was wrong and the Jets might not regret drafting Trouba after all, though I still like Forsberg too. Morrissey and Scheifele, though "off the consensus board" picks still have the potential to develop into solid players. Adam Lowry looks like a stud, and this entire draft from last summer looks like a major win. The far off future looks bright.

Still, when I look at the current roster for this season I don't see much to get excited for, especially with how Noel appears to be using them. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing it yet. Hopefully a win on Tuesday will help me feel better. :D
 

EpicGingy

Registered User
Jul 30, 2012
7,924
6,397
Ontario
Certainly.

Noel:
-Playing Olli and Mittens on 2nd line
-Having James Wright play anywhere other than 4th line
-Refusal to rest Pavelec in b2b's where he obviously struggles
-Whatever happened to make Burmi want to head to KHL (Noel shares some of blame at least,as does Burmi)
-Being unable to establish an "identity" with the Jets after 2+ years at the helm.

Chevy:
-A few terrible contracts (Pavelec and Jokinen) offset the good ones (Kane, Ladd etc...)
-the unwillingness to part with a member of the Thrashers core who haven't won anything together
-Raiding the waiver wire like a kid in a candy store, but then leaving Jussi Jokinen alone
-Refusing to move pending UFA's for assets to assist in the #5yearplan rebuild
-Drafting Lukas Sutter in the 2nd round

Those are a few things that, IMO, are at least worth discussing as potential mistakes. Obviously I'm not in the boardroom or behind the bench, but as an invested fan these are a few examples of things that I disagreed with. Feel free to disagree with some or all of them if you like.

There is lots to like though. Having Kane and Bogo locked up for a long time. The Frolik trade was money. It looks like I was wrong and the Jets might not regret drafting Trouba after all, though I still like Forsberg too. Morrissey and Scheifele, though "off the consensus board" picks still have the potential to develop into solid players. Adam Lowry looks like a stud, and this entire draft from last summer looks like a major win. The far off future looks bright.

Still, when I look at the current roster for this season I don't see much to get excited for, especially with how Noel appears to be using them. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing it yet. Hopefully a win on Tuesday will help me feel better. :D

Just a few thoughts on what you said.

We all know Jokinen is bad now, but how many people thought he would fall off as far as he did? I wouldn't put that as a huge negative.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Thrashers core, the core as we inherited it is Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Kane, Bogosian, Pavelec (at least on my mind). That's not really a bad core, and I also wouldn't really call it a negative for not just trading them when there's potential.

28 other teams didn't jump on Jussi, and Pittsburgh only traded for him if Carolina retained salary. His cap hit was the problem.

I don't think there was any doubt by somebody informed we would regret drafting Trouba, he should have gone higher in that draft TBH. Morrissey wasn't really off the board, after Domi everybody's lists were everywhere. I'll give you Scheifele, although I like the pick now, but I won't jump down anybody's throat for not liking it.

I agree with most of what you said about Noel except the Burmi part, but that discussion really needs to end so I'll leave it be.

Just my 0.02$
 

meedle

Registered User
May 17, 2011
4,985
91
Winnipeg
I think you can add
Noel :

- The GAA, and PK numbers have been the same from the last year in Atlanta to the first 2 Winnipeg ones.
- The PP has actually gotten worse.

I don't blame Chevy for the Joker signing. He was the best center available at the time to fill the #2 hole. No one knew he would be this bad. Although i blame Chevy for :

- Not bringing in a legit goalie to push Pavelec. Monty isn't the answer.
 

Guerzy

I'm a fricken baby
Jan 16, 2005
39,854
3,121
Just a few thoughts on what you said.

We all know Jokinen is bad now, but how many people thought he would fall off as far as he did? I wouldn't put that as a huge negative.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Thrashers core, the core as we inherited it is Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Kane, Bogosian, Pavelec (at least on my mind). That's not really a bad core, and I also wouldn't really call it a negative for not just trading them when there's potential.

28 other teams didn't jump on Jussi, and Pittsburgh only traded for him if Carolina retained salary. His cap hit was the problem.

I don't think there was any doubt by somebody informed we would regret drafting Trouba, he should have gone higher in that draft TBH. Morrissey wasn't really off the board, after Domi everybody's lists were everywhere. I'll give you Scheifele, although I like the pick now, but I won't jump down anybody's throat for not liking it.

I agree with most of what you said about Noel except the Burmi part, but that discussion really needs to end so I'll leave it be.

Just my 0.02$

Well said.

I have no problem with Chevy being active on the waiver wire. Yes, far and few between will you land anything too noteworthy, but, quality players do hit the waiver wire and there has been an abundance over the years who wake up or find their footing with a new organization. I am all for going active in this avenue of roster additions. In my opinion, you're a fool of a GM for not doing so. You swing so many times, there is likely going to come a time where you get on base, hit a double, triple, maybe a home run... you get my point. You choose not to swing, you'll never hit the ball.

To this day I still am very happy Chevy was able and willing to land Olli Jokinen, who was, one of if not the top centres available via UFA in the summer of 2012. We needed a big centre who had the tools to put up 50-60 points, and when we signed Olli he was that centre. He was the 2 year stop gap in which was supposed to buy us time for Mark Scheifele. Coming off a solid statistical season in Calgary and collecting the praises of his head coach Sutter for his newly found all-around play, it appeared to be a pretty good roster move. I'm not sure what's not to like. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. But, to each their own. Olli has had his critics over his career and some simply may not be Olli fans, that's ok too.

To dump on Chevy for signing a guy to a 2-year, 4 million per deal then complain when it doesn't work out, yet then turn around and dump on him for not picking up an unproductive Jussi Jokinen who is on contract for a million less than Olli and not earning it, not to mention he was on.... waivers, the very avenue complained about in that Chevy is too active in, is a bit contradicting.

I watched plenty of Jussi Jokinen in my pre-Jets days when I was a Canes fan, and while he can add some offense and faceoff ability, he is strictly a complimentary piece and if he's not playing with linemates in which he clicks with, and if they're not producing, Jussi isn't producing and Jussi is very useless for his salary and player he is. Carolina was long starved for a 2nd line centre prior to adding Jordan Staal, and Jussi can play centre and do well in the faceoff circle, yet he couldn't be 'that guy' for Carolina. There's your sign. Even when Jussi put up 65 points a few seasons ago, he had his haters. Our luck Chevy would have acquired Jussi via waivers, he wouldn't have produced, we would have been stuck with him and paying his salary for the upcoming season, we'd have to watch another "Jokinen" and never hear the end of the pissing on Chevy for it. I do think he will do well in Pittsburgh though, for obvious reasons.

I'll use hindsight and say I am happy to not have Jussi Jokinen and his salary (I am aware Carolina ate some of that) as I would rather bank on Setoguchi and Frolik. I didn't mind Jussi in my Carolina days, but he isn't the player some think he is, and I surely do not think he was the answer on this roster. If we had Jussi on the roster, I'm not sure we could have brought in Setoguchi and/or Frolik. Maybe they pan out here, maybe they don't, but I am content in having them and finding out.

Overall with Chevy as GM, I am impressed and like what he has done to date, even though some may say, "what has he done?". I believe I understand the process in which he speaks of, so I do have the patience to this point. I do expect playoffs this season however, and the extension to Noel leads me to believe Chevy does too. This is Chevy's roster now, all of it, so Noel best be able to coach it or he'll be out the door. There are now expectations to meet and results that matter at this point in the process. That intrigues me, and I am looking very much forward to it. It's taken some time to build up the organization prospect wise, and watch some of the noted core pieces we have to decide whether or not to go long-term with them, and we did. In the meantime Chevy has rebuilt the supporting cast to his own liking and roster additions. So here we are. For me, now the fun really begins. Some won't like that we've had to wait 2 seasons for it, but to me those are the ones who simply don't understand the process and road in which we're headed. Maybe some simply don't agree with the process being taken, that's fair too. But the critics who disagree should take a deep breath and see how this further plays out before being the pitchfork carrying, drum beating pessimists. If the end game doesn't work out, have at it, eat your heart out. But have some damn patience in the meantime. This organization was in pretty poor shape when they landed in Winnipeg in May of 2011, that seems to fall on blank minds more often than not, in my opinion. It has indeed taken time to fix and get back on track.

As far as Claude Noel goes, I question him myself at times. I like some of the things he brings to the table as a head coach, but I do question some things. Find me a fanbase who doesn't question their coach and I'll be surprised. I've heard and read the same from Detroit fans in regards to Babcock, same goes for Chicago and Quenneville, even Boston and Julien. Sure those teams have won Lord Stanley, but the crys towards coaching decisions are still there. The Jets fanbase and Noel are no different. This year is a big one for Noel obviously. Me personally, I think we have a playoff roster, and if our roster parts click and we get the production and contributions needed, we should be a playoff team, maybe a 7-8 seed, but so be it. If Claude can't get this roster on track this season, by all means replace him. He's got a lameduck extension and everyone and their dog knows it. I am very much looking forward to seeing how things play out this season.
 
Last edited:

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
Sponsor
Mar 10, 2010
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Certainly.

Noel:
-Playing Olli and Mittens on 2nd line
-Having James Wright play anywhere other than 4th line
-Refusal to rest Pavelec in b2b's where he obviously struggles
-Whatever happened to make Burmi want to head to KHL (Noel shares some of blame at least,as does Burmi)
-Being unable to establish an "identity" with the Jets after 2+ years at the helm.

Chevy:
-A few terrible contracts (Pavelec and Jokinen) offset the good ones (Kane, Ladd etc...)
-the unwillingness to part with a member of the Thrashers core who haven't won anything together
-Raiding the waiver wire like a kid in a candy store, but then leaving Jussi Jokinen alone
-Refusing to move pending UFA's for assets to assist in the #5yearplan rebuild
-Drafting Lukas Sutter in the 2nd round

Those are a few things that, IMO, are at least worth discussing as potential mistakes. Obviously I'm not in the boardroom or behind the bench, but as an invested fan these are a few examples of things that I disagreed with. Feel free to disagree with some or all of them if you like.

There is lots to like though. Having Kane and Bogo locked up for a long time. The Frolik trade was money. It looks like I was wrong and the Jets might not regret drafting Trouba after all, though I still like Forsberg too. Morrissey and Scheifele, though "off the consensus board" picks still have the potential to develop into solid players. Adam Lowry looks like a stud, and this entire draft from last summer looks like a major win. The far off future looks bright.

Still, when I look at the current roster for this season I don't see much to get excited for, especially with how Noel appears to be using them. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing it yet. Hopefully a win on Tuesday will help me feel better. :D

Just a few thoughts on what you said.

We all know Jokinen is bad now, but how many people thought he would fall off as far as he did? I wouldn't put that as a huge negative.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Thrashers core, the core as we inherited it is Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Kane, Bogosian, Pavelec (at least on my mind). That's not really a bad core, and I also wouldn't really call it a negative for not just trading them when there's potential.

28 other teams didn't jump on Jussi, and Pittsburgh only traded for him if Carolina retained salary. His cap hit was the problem.

I don't think there was any doubt by somebody informed we would regret drafting Trouba, he should have gone higher in that draft TBH. Morrissey wasn't really off the board, after Domi everybody's lists were everywhere. I'll give you Scheifele, although I like the pick now, but I won't jump down anybody's throat for not liking it.

I agree with most of what you said about Noel except the Burmi part, but that discussion really needs to end so I'll leave it be.

Just my 0.02$

Ok

Everyone take note.....the above is a constructive debate! I like debate and think its a good thing. these were both well thought out positions and this was a nice back and forth!! Bravo :handclap::handclap:
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
Sponsor
Mar 10, 2010
34,904
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Well said.



To this day I still am very happy Chevy was able and willing to land Olli Jokinen, who was, one of if not the top centres available via UFA in the summer of 2012. We needed a big centre who had the tools to put up 50-60 points, and when we signed Olli he was that centre. He was the 2 year stop gap in which was supposed to buy us time for Mark Scheifele. Coming off a solid statistical season in Calgary and collecting the praises of his head coach Sutter for his newly found all-around play, it appeared to be a pretty good roster move. I'm not sure what's not to like. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. But, to each their own. Olli has had his critics over his career and some simply may not be Olli fans, that's ok too.

Yea this!!
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
Sponsor
Mar 10, 2010
34,904
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Unfortunately I will disagree with the initial post. I would like to be an optimist but I am also someone who is living in reality. I don't drink the TNSE TSN koolaid.

The Atlanta Thrashers were a terrible hockey team and got much worse by trading Kovalchuk for nothing. When TNSE purchased the team, the cupboards were bare. Instead of trading value to replenish the cupboards quickly, the rookie GM chose a wait and see (draft only) approach. We've seen the results - a GM who does very little to acquire talent and a coach who after two seasons is not able to motivate good to great players.

I said this in the first months of the first year that Noel needed to go. He has learned nothing from his offensive shut down philosophy and wheel and deal defencemen. D need to play D and transition the puck to goal scoring forwards. Each player needs a role. Noel does not believe either. People laughed at me and said I was full of it. I said it the second year. I'm saying it again in year three. Except I am adding an asterisk and I now believe it is both Noel and Chevy who have to go.

I don't expect every fan to agree with me but the NHL is NO DIFFERENT than any other league. You need to win now. The Jets have not. They are inconsistent and their coaching and management is now being questioned. TNSE's response to losing is to resign the coach, the GM and give several players who have shown SOME talent MONSTER long term franchise deals. TNSE has faith. I don't care about faith. I want wins not hope. Paying $80-200 for a game ticket will wane on others as well. The boo birds were out last year and I expect to hear them more often this year.

Simply put, the philosophies of the GM and coach haven't inspired me or made me or other NHL pundits believe they are any more than a bottom dweller. This team needs new leadership with a GM and coach who have both the needed philosophy and experience. Until that time comes, the Jets may be playing a lot of golf during the playoffs.

I believe this post would fit better in this thread ;)

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1505323
 

knorthern knight

Registered User
Mar 18, 2011
4,120
0
GTA
Certainly.

Noel:
-Playing Olli and Mittens on 2nd line
-Having James Wright play anywhere other than 4th line
-Refusal to rest Pavelec in b2b's where he obviously struggles
-Whatever happened to make Burmi want to head to KHL (Noel shares some of blame at least,as does Burmi)
-Being unable to establish an "identity" with the Jets after 2+ years at the helm.
Agree with all the points except the last one. Identity/shmy-dentity. I want the team to win.

Chevy:
-A few terrible contracts (Pavelec and Jokinen) offset the good ones (Kane, Ladd etc...)
You win some, you lose some. That still doesn't excuse Noel from playing Pavelec+Jokinen in situations where they shouldn't have been played.

-the unwillingness to part with a member of the Thrashers core who haven't won anything together
Change-for-the-sake-of-change doesn't work. Status quo might suck, but at least don't make things worse. Atlanta/Winnipeg's record is not the fault of LLW+Kane+Enstrom+Bogosian+Byfuglien. They need a better supporting cast. Chevy has done that by drafting Scheifele, claiming Clitsome, and obtaining Setoguchi and Frolik.

-Raiding the waiver wire like a kid in a candy store, but then leaving Jussi Jokinen alone
Jets' cap space is $2,323,643 WITHOUT HAVING SIGNED BURMISTROV. Jussi's cap hit is $3,000,000. When a $3 million/year player goes on waivers, that raises a red flag.

-Refusing to move pending UFA's for assets to assist in the #5yearplan rebuild
A couple of points...
  1. If the Jets had beaten the Islanders in regulation time on April the 2nd, instead of losing in regulation, the Jets would've made the playoffs. The lynch mobs would've been out for Chevy's head if we came close after trading away veterans at the deadline.
  2. It takes 2 to tango; are you sure that Chevy didn't try? Consider the problems Hainsey had getting a 1-year deal at a major cut in pay, and even that was to a desparate Carolina team after it was confirmed that Pitkanen was out for the season. The players we let go, we let go for a reason... they simply weren't that good. And that was also the reason that no sane GM was offering us anybody useful in exchange. Aside from Hainsey to Carolina, Antropov+Burmistrov+Meech ended up in "the old man's league" (as Burmi called it), and Wellwood ended up in Europe.
-Drafting Lukas Sutter in the 2nd round
I agree that looks like a bad move. We'll see what happens in a year or so, but I don't see him improving that much.
 

garret9

AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Mar 31, 2012
21,738
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Vancouver
www.hockey-graphs.com
J. Jokinen is an example of sh%/PDO and how GMs tend to make decisions involved with him.

Good read on this kinda stuff:
http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=6317

Basically if you looked at the underlying numbers, you could tell that J.Jokinen's scoring would come back as long as he kept making similar amount of scoring chances.

Same reason why we knew Fehr would bounce back. Same reason (shown in the article) why we knew Komisarek wasn't as good as his contract and he was going to come crashing down.

GMs decisions follow unstable sh% all the time.
 

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