Blue Jays Discussion: Everything sucks except the all-star: Justin Smoak

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

So did Bo leave low-A as the best 19 year old ever?

Since 2006, yes. The only person close is Oscar Tavares (RIP).

 

[Morgs]

Since 2006, yes. The only person close is Oscar Tavares (RIP).

What are your expectations for him and VGJ in Dunedin?

Edit: I see Trout as an 18 year old dropped his wRC+ from 172 to 117 after making the switch. I'm assuming that is to be expected?

 

[Morgs]

Just realized Stanton played on low-A ball all year as an 18 year old, but killed high-A as a 19 year old.

Also that Bryce completely skipped high-A as an 18 year old? Crazy. Especially seeing how he only had 536 PA before making the show.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Question for all the Jays/Leaf fans in this thread and even non Leaf fans.

Does the Leafs rebuild have any impact on what the Jays fanbase will tolerate. How would a Leafs style rebuild work with Jays fans now, especially those who go to games. Would attendance drop due to the fact they would sell off guys like Jose, Donaldson, Happ or even best case Tulo and Martin.

If Shapiro came out and did the Shapiorplan aka Shannaplan would Jays fans be ok with it and still support the team knowing better long term success could be had with a tear down and rebuild.

How fast could the Jays tear it and down and rebuild it? Would it be 2-3 years or longer?

Does the Leafs success impact on how things are viewed now?

What does the fanbase think?

I caution mixing hockey and baseball. Two vastly different sports, with vastly different draft, and vastly different payroll parameters. Though, I'm certain a portion of the fanbase can't help themselves, they'd slide more towards the 'Leaf fan who just so happens to watch the Jays sometimes'.

As for baseball rebuilding; I think your Cubs' success, and the success of the Astros now, influences their opinions far more. People see the Bryant's and the Correa's of the world, and naturally think the Teams are built on drafting top five for several years, without seeing the Altuve's\Keuchel's or Fowler\Zobrist\Lester heavy contributions to winning.

In the case of the Jays and turnaround, in a situation where core assets were traded (i.e. Donaldson, Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis) to fully blow it up, I imagine you wouldn't see the fruits of your Blue Chip prospects until 19\20. Alford would be ready in '18, Bo\Vlad in '20. But then of course, you have no pitching staff unless your strike gold on other team's prospects, or fall into epic college pitching in the draft (not bloody likely). Or of course, you dip into free agency to then build around your core three (Bo\Vlad\Alford); which then bodes the question of why you wouldn't simply keep Sanchez\Stroman\Osuna, sign them, and eliminate the problem before you have it.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

What are your expectations for him and VGJ in Dunedin?

Edit: I see Trout as an 18 year old dropped his wRC+ from 172 to 117 after making the switch. I'm assuming that is to be expected?

My expectation is wRC+ of 115-120 for both. And if that happens, with them maintaining their K/BB, I'm comfortable with them opening 2018 at Double-A to get the full 550+ PA's there. If that happens, everyone should be very excited.

Just realized Stanton played on low-A ball all year as an 18 year old, but killed high-A as a 19 year old.

Also that Bryce completely skipped high-A as an 18 year old? Crazy. Especially seeing how he only had 536 PA before making the show.

Yeah, Harper\Trout\Stanton are perhaps the best prospects since Griffey\ARod in terms of wowing scouts.

 

[Mach85]

Just an aside, this pic of Shapiro always makes me laugh (or at least exhale slightly faster out of my nostrils), because he looks like he's had waaaay too much coffee or something. Those eyes.

 

[Neil Hamburger]

I caution mixing hockey and baseball. Two vastly different sports, with vastly different draft, and vastly different payroll parameters. Though, I'm certain a portion of the fanbase can't help themselves, they'd slide more towards the 'Leaf fan who just so happens to watch the Jays sometimes'.

As for baseball rebuilding; I think your Cubs' success, and the success of the Astros now, influences their opinions far more. People see the Bryant's and the Correa's of the world, and naturally think the Teams are built on drafting top five for several years, without seeing the Altuve's\Keuchel's or Fowler\Zobrist\Lester heavy contributions to winning.

In the case of the Jays and turnaround, in a situation where core assets were traded (i.e. Donaldson, Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis) to fully blow it up, I imagine you wouldn't see the fruits of your Blue Chip prospects until 19\20. Alford would be ready in '18, Bo\Vlad in '20. But then of course, you have no pitching staff unless your strike gold on other team's prospects, or fall into epic college pitching in the draft (not bloody likely). Or of course, you dip into free agency to then build around your core three (Bo\Vlad\Alford); which then bodes the question of why you wouldn't simply keep Sanchez\Stroman\Osuna, sign them, and eliminate the problem before you have it.

I don't think anyone wants to trade Sanchez/Stroman/Osuna. At least, i haven't seen anyone advocating it.

I think we should move the likes of Happ, Smoak, Smith, Estrada, etc if we can get reasonable value - I think that's what most fans who want to retool want to do.

 

[Morgs]

My expectation is wRC+ of 115-120 for both. And if that happens, with them maintaining their K/BB, I'm comfortable with them opening 2018 at Double-A to get the full 550+ PA's there. If that happens, everyone should be very excited.



Yeah, Harper\Trout\Stanton are perhaps the best prospects since Griffey\ARod in terms of wowing scouts.

Only considering 18-19 year old seasons, where would you rank Bo/VGJ with those 3?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I don't think anyone wants to trade Sanchez/Stroman/Osuna. At least, i haven't seen anyone advocating it.

I think we should move the likes of Happ, Smoak, Smith, Estrada, etc if we can get reasonable value.

There are people who have suggested so. And I've never disparaged the strategy of trading non-core assets at all.

Only considering 18-19 year old seasons, where would you rank Bo/VGJ with those 3?

Behind them . Neither Bo nor Vlad has the physical projection of those three. Doesn't mean they won't be great, or have the potential to be great. They both have 70\70 Hit tools, including approach and bat speed, and I believe should both have 65FV Power tools. However, you have to remember Stanton was like 80 grade FV power lol, and Harper\Trout were an overall 70 grade prospects.

 

[Morgs]

Behind them . Neither Bo nor Vlad has the physical projection of those three. Doesn't mean they won't be great, or have the potential to be great. They both have 70\70 Hit tools, including approach and bat speed, and I believe should both have 65FV Power tools. However, you have to remember Stanton was like 80 grade FV power lol, and Harper\Trout were an overall 70 grade prospects.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I was wore wondering if there is a chance that either one could end up as that kind of prospect/player; as outrageous as it seems.

 

[zeke]

What are your expectations for him and VGJ in Dunedin?

Edit: I see Trout as an 18 year old dropped his wRC+ from 172 to 117 after making the switch. I'm assuming that is to be expected?

yes a large drop is expected.

 

[zeke]

Only considering 18-19 year old seasons, where would you rank Bo/VGJ with those 3?

vlad's bat ranks right up there with them.

 

[ryno23]

I caution mixing hockey and baseball. Two vastly different sports, with vastly different draft, and vastly different payroll parameters. Though, I'm certain a portion of the fanbase can't help themselves, they'd slide more towards the 'Leaf fan who just so happens to watch the Jays sometimes'.

As for baseball rebuilding; I think your Cubs' success, and the success of the Astros now, influences their opinions far more. People see the Bryant's and the Correa's of the world, and naturally think the Teams are built on drafting top five for several years, without seeing the Altuve's\Keuchel's or Fowler\Zobrist\Lester heavy contributions to winning.

In the case of the Jays and turnaround, in a situation where core assets were traded (i.e. Donaldson, Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis) to fully blow it up, I imagine you wouldn't see the fruits of your Blue Chip prospects until 19\20. Alford would be ready in '18, Bo\Vlad in '20. But then of course, you have no pitching staff unless your strike gold on other team's prospects, or fall into epic college pitching in the draft (not bloody likely). Or of course, you dip into free agency to then build around your core three (Bo\Vlad\Alford); which then bodes the question of why you wouldn't simply keep Sanchez\Stroman\Osuna, sign them, and eliminate the problem before you have it.

Some people think the Cubs were built by tanking and drafting but in reality they only got Bryant and Baez in the draft but make really good deal moving vet (Jays similar players in () like Hammels ( would be Estrada), the Shark (would be Happ) Cashner, Feldman, Garza and Dempster

Those guys returned Rizzo, Russell, Edwards JR, Hendricks, Arrietta and Strop.

The Jays already have their closer in Osuna 2 parts of a rotation in Stroman and Sanchez where you wouldn't have to sign a Lester, Lackey to huge deals.

You got Bo and Vlad that should be something so where they need to make moves in acquiring prospects who can help out in 1-2 maybe 3 years. They need to get some positional players if they are dealing Estrada, Happ, Jose and hell even Donaldson which they would need to get a serious haul much like the Rangers got for Texeria.

I think the Jays can improve quicker via trades than the standard suck for years and draft top 5 every year.

 

[Silver91]

Some people think the Cubs were built by tanking and drafting but in reality they only got Bryant and Baez in the draft but make really good deal moving vet (Jays similar players in () like Hammels ( would be Estrada), the Shark (would be Happ) Cashner, Feldman, Garza and Dempster

Those guys returned Rizzo, Russell, Edwards JR, Hendricks, Arrietta and Strop.

The Jays already have their closer in Osuna 2 parts of a rotation in Stroman and Sanchez where you wouldn't have to sign a Lester, Lackey to huge deals.

You got Bo and Vlad that should be something so where they need to make moves in acquiring prospects who can help out in 1-2 maybe 3 years. They need to get some positional players if they are dealing Estrada, Happ, Jose and hell even Donaldson which they would need to get a serious haul much like the Rangers got for Texeria.

I think the Jays can improve quicker via trades than the standard suck for years and draft top 5 every year.

I think most people here see this as the solution. Move everything that's not bolted down (JD - much as it would suck - Happ, Estrada, Smoak, JB, Pillar, Liriano, Smith, etc.), and expect to suck in 2018 and 2019. You'd get a good haul for JD, Happ and probably even Estrada from a team who believes in his playoff numbers.

Retain the full 2017 contracts of all of those guys, you might as well squeeze as much value out of them as you can. I'd also look at sending $25M with Tulo to a team who thinks he'll bounce back. If you can fool a team on the name, and offer pretty much this season and next of him for free, maybe you can snag a prospect of significance for him...stranger things have happened. I'd look at something similar with Russ as well. Offer to pay half his salary, and hopefully a team is willing to move something nice for him too.

That should be enough to kick-start a true rebuild, that hopefully you're on the up in 2 years time with the prospects from the trades, Bo and Vlad knocking on the door, looking competitive as early as 2020...

The problem is, the average fan who is showing up to the games mostly started coming in the last 2 years. They are here for a winner, and have shelled out money expecting one. It's hard for Shapiro & Co. to turn their backs on money coming in, even when it's probably the right thing to do right now.

 

[theaub]

You can re-tool and easily be competitive in 2019 or even 2018.

 

[hockeywiz542]

toronto - the toronto blue jays are extending the contracts of their coaching staff to align them with the tenure of manager john gibbons, industry sources told sportsnet.

The deals for pitching coach pete walker, bullpen coach dane johnson, hitting coach brook jacoby, first-base coach tim leiper and third base coach luis rivera run through the 2019 season, with club options on 2020. Gibbons agreed to an extension covering the same time period back in march.

Quality control coach derek shelton received a deal for the same term when he was hired in december, while bench coach demarlo hale opted to continue going year-to-year with his contract.

the extensions maintain stability in a staff that's been together through the two post-season runs in 2015 and '16, and underlines the club's confidence in the group, as the deals were negotiated after the blue jays opened the season poorly.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I was wore wondering if there is a chance that either one could end up as that kind of prospect/player; as outrageous as it seems.

Its not outrageous at all. I actually think Vlad Jr. has the potential to be the best pure hitter of those four in their primes (except for Trout) in a Miguel Cabrera type way. As awesome as Harper is, as someone who lived in DC for years, he can go very very cold for prolonged stretches and look terrible because of the hiches in his swing. And of course Stanton is more of a 60 hit / 80 power than the 70 h / 70 p Vlad could be. Bo I see following a Harper esque path where he tears the cover off the ball (with less power, but more line drive - gap to gap), but will have some stretches where things are tough due to the movement. This is all pie in the sky, of course.

Some people think the Cubs were built by tanking and drafting but in reality they only got Bryant and Baez in the draft but make really good deal moving vet (Jays similar players in () like Hammels ( would be Estrada), the Shark (would be Happ) Cashner, Feldman, Garza and Dempster

Those guys returned Rizzo, Russell, Edwards JR, Hendricks, Arrietta and Strop.

The Jays already have their closer in Osuna 2 parts of a rotation in Stroman and Sanchez where you wouldn't have to sign a Lester, Lackey to huge deals.

You got Bo and Vlad that should be something so where they need to make moves in acquiring prospects who can help out in 1-2 maybe 3 years. They need to get some positional players if they are dealing Estrada, Happ, Jose and hell even Donaldson which they would need to get a serious haul much like the Rangers got for Texeria.

I think the Jays can improve quicker via trades than the standard suck for years and draft top 5 every year.

Yeah, I don't disagree. Though I think their need for position players is slightly overblown. There's been some good development this year with some guys revealing themselves as potential second tier core players (Jansen comes to mind) to add to Bo\Vlad\Alford. I would actually target pitching when trading the pending free agents.

You can re-tool and easily be competitive in 2019 or even 2018.

You out chere dreamin' Aub.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Vlad named #2 in Baseball America Prospect Rankings.

 

[Eyedea]

Vlad named #2 in Baseball America Prospect Rankings.

Yes yes, excellent.

Alford #38
Bichette #44
Gurriel #90

 

[hoglund]

You can re-tool and easily be competitive in 2019 or even 2018.

They should be competitive with the current roster, injuries and underachieving are the problems this year, but there's still a half season left and way too early to be sellers. If they have similar problems next season at the all star break, then it's time to sell.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Yes yes, excellent.

Alford #38
Bichette #44
Gurriel #90

BBA is narcoleptic, always sleeping on Bo. Gotta tie the back of their head like Deuce Bigalow...he's dominated pitching across the globe.. (Jay-Z Voice)

In all seriousness though, a 49 place jump is nice. Should be 40 more by seasons end. Will be nice to get Alford back healthy getting AB's too.

 

[Eyedea]

Pentecost is rehabbing in the GCL (playing C). Interesting that they don't just bring him back up to Dunedin, maybe a sign that he'll be pushed to NH after AS break?

 

[Suntouchable13]

They should be competitive with the current roster, injuries and underachieving are the problems this year, but there's still a half season left and way too early to be sellers. If they have similar problems next season at the all star break, then it's time to sell.

Maybe, just maybe, Blue Jays and Yankees records will get a market correction after the break. Yanks should be nowhere near a playoff spot, just my opinion. And the Jays shouldn't be under .500. I am looking for a massive correction in the second half. We'll see.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Maybe, just maybe, Blue Jays and Yankees records will get a market correction after the break. Yanks should be nowhere near a playoff spot, just my opinion. And the Jays shouldn't be under .500. I am looking for a massive correction in the second half. We'll see.

Health has been (and continues to be) a big issue with this team
But we've got improve the bottom of the lineup - Goins/Barney, Pillar, Carrera, Maille (when he was healthy) is just too weak. Can even throw in Tulo