Evansville Lease Trouble
- Thread starter mk80
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The Icemen had to make eleventh-hour negotiations back in 2011 when they first moved into the Ford Center. I think the unresolved issues from that hasty arrangement have finally come home to roost in this most recent attempt at negotiations.
From what I can remember back then, the city was dictating terms to Geary. As a result, he is losing money due largely to the lease arrangement. I would not be surprised if this is Evansville's final season in the ECHL. The city does not appear ready to compromise.
From what I can remember back then, the city was dictating terms to Geary. As a result, he is losing money due largely to the lease arrangement. I would not be surprised if this is Evansville's final season in the ECHL. The city does not appear ready to compromise.
Gibbie42
Registered User
I wouldn't make that leap just yet. The city has a lot at stake here. The IceMen are the major tenant, it would pretty much sit empty an additional 36 nights a year, plus the practice time. The city is playing like that money doesn't count but it certainly does. There's an offer coming today from the city that they say should meet the teams needs. I'm hoping the two sides won't be too far apart after that. This push to the media came because the city had been non-communicative. The city just finished major elections including the mayor and city council so they were probably waiting to do anything about the lease until after the election was decided. I'm hoping it resolves quickly.
Cyclones Rock
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- Jun 12, 2008
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Here' a 15 minute interview with Geary:
http://www.tristatehomepage.com/new...eary-talks-icemen-possibly-leaving-evansville
From his vantage point, the city has been dragging its feet in the negotiations and he's going public to gain some leverage. Also, as mfrekes pointed out, Geary felt that the city dictated terms of the lease in a heavy-handed manner five years ago.
He claims that the team has the worst lease in the league at $650,000 in yearly rent and it receives no concessions revenue save $30,000 per year on booze sales. He said that the team has lost $2.4 million ($1.1 million the first year) in their 4 years. That comes to about $400,000 per year over the past 3 years. If he can get rent cut in half, then, based on his numbers, he'd have roughly a break even operation.
Geary did shut down his race track (Ellis Park) for a few days years ago in a dispute with horsemen over revenues and re-opened when he won. So, he does have a history of making good on a threat.
My guess is that everything gets worked out in a compromise situation. Geary wants his hockey team and the City of Evansville will look look pretty bad if they lost one of their two main tenants just 5 years after opening the arena. A larger operating deficit on the Ford Center would occur as well.
http://www.tristatehomepage.com/new...eary-talks-icemen-possibly-leaving-evansville
From his vantage point, the city has been dragging its feet in the negotiations and he's going public to gain some leverage. Also, as mfrekes pointed out, Geary felt that the city dictated terms of the lease in a heavy-handed manner five years ago.
He claims that the team has the worst lease in the league at $650,000 in yearly rent and it receives no concessions revenue save $30,000 per year on booze sales. He said that the team has lost $2.4 million ($1.1 million the first year) in their 4 years. That comes to about $400,000 per year over the past 3 years. If he can get rent cut in half, then, based on his numbers, he'd have roughly a break even operation.
Geary did shut down his race track (Ellis Park) for a few days years ago in a dispute with horsemen over revenues and re-opened when he won. So, he does have a history of making good on a threat.
My guess is that everything gets worked out in a compromise situation. Geary wants his hockey team and the City of Evansville will look look pretty bad if they lost one of their two main tenants just 5 years after opening the arena. A larger operating deficit on the Ford Center would occur as well.
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Gibbie42
Registered User
How things are going depends on who you talk to. Mr. Geary is still projecting badness, others in management are feeling a little more encouraged. The city countered this week and apparently lawyers for both sides were holed up yesterday working on it. I go from being certain we're done to feeling positive, depending on the hour basically. I also keep saying that I paid for my seats for next season already, I'm going to go sit in them dammit. 
We're all hoping for the best, but lots of us making road trip plans for the back half of the season, including the end of the season games at Allen, you know, just in case. :/
We're all hoping for the best, but lots of us making road trip plans for the back half of the season, including the end of the season games at Allen, you know, just in case. :/
Cyclones Rock
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- Jun 12, 2008
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How things are going depends on who you talk to. Mr. Geary is still projecting badness, others in management are feeling a little more encouraged. The city countered this week and apparently lawyers for both sides were holed up yesterday working on it. I go from being certain we're done to feeling positive, depending on the hour basically. I also keep saying that I paid for my seats for next season already, I'm going to go sit in them dammit.
Just a few thoughts:
1) Geary is playing PR hardball to gain the most leverage that he can. While the ECHL by-laws state that December 1 is a drop dead date, just remember that the CHL teams were admitted just a few days before the ECHL season began. The ECHL is not going to kick the Icemen out of the league because an arbitrary deadline isn't kept.
2) The City of Evansville probably need the Icemen more than Geary needs to have a hockey team. The Ford Center's deficit probably doubles (or more) without them. Geary, on the other hand, has a team which is losing money.
3) The differences in each party's position isn't that huge. It can be settled.
4) Most important. The Cyclones need the Iceman. Short travel time and easy wins
Gibbie42
Registered User
Yea, I know all the logic. The city really does need the IceMen. City council already cut the Ford Center budget in a last minute budget frenzy, it goes deeper in trouble without the IceMen income. I also know that the league let the Las Vegas Wranglers float for several months while they tried to find a solution. I don't think the ECHL is just going to up and say "sucks to be you" if things aren't all neatly tied up yet. I also know that Geary is not letting that be known publicly because he needs the leverage. It's a chess match, we're watching it play out. It's still hard not to worry just a tad. I don't even want to think about not having them next year.
Cyclones Rock
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- Jun 12, 2008
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If it weren't for the Icemen last year, we would have been as bad as the Icemen I think we were about at 35% winning percentage in our games outside of Evansville.
Can't blame you for being worried, but I really can't see the Icemen leaving under any realistic scenario.
I've been to 2 or 3 games at the Ford Center. It's a perfect facility for AA hockey. Your fans are very friendly as well.
If worse comes to worse, you can always become a Komets fan
I think we were about at 35% winning percentage in our games outside of Evansville.Can't blame you for being worried, but I really can't see the Icemen leaving under any realistic scenario.
I've been to 2 or 3 games at the Ford Center. It's a perfect facility for AA hockey. Your fans are very friendly as well.
If worse comes to worse, you can always become a Komets fan
Sports Enthusiast
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Yea, I know all the logic. The city really does need the IceMen. City council already cut the Ford Center budget in a last minute budget frenzy, it goes deeper in trouble without the IceMen income. I also know that the league let the Las Vegas Wranglers float for several months while they tried to find a solution. I don't think the ECHL is just going to up and say "sucks to be you" if things aren't all neatly tied up yet. I also know that Geary is not letting that be known publicly because he needs the leverage. It's a chess match, we're watching it play out. It's still hard not to worry just a tad. I don't even want to think about not having them next year.
Didn't Vegas tentatively have a plan in place to play elsewhere? I believe the roof of a hotel or something bizarre like that.
Sports Enthusiast
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Interesting timing. They have the worst team in the league so I can imagine attendance stinks. So I van see how they are losing money anyway. Even rich people will only take so many losses before they give up. Leases were made to be broken and if he wants to he could easily relocate the tram so in a way he dictates the terms because he holds the "key" to the team being in that city.
As for it hurting the arena...you could say that about any arena without a major tenant however if I had to guess especially amongst AHL and ECHL teams that most of the arenas easily lose money every year. They aren't exactly money makers to run. Its a costly business.
As for it hurting the arena...you could say that about any arena without a major tenant however if I had to guess especially amongst AHL and ECHL teams that most of the arenas easily lose money every year. They aren't exactly money makers to run. Its a costly business.
210
Registered User
4819 per, 7th in the ECHL...last season they were 9th, the season prior they were fifth. All information that took less time to look up than you took to make your post.
Gibbie42
Registered User
And in the third smallest market in the ECHL. Attendance isn't a huge issue right now. The team was dismal last year. The record isn't great so far this but they are better than their record. It's entertaining even in the losses, so the attendance will pickup again. Especially as we get into December and January.
SemireliableSource
Liter-a-cola
CrazyEddie20
Hey RuZZia - Cut Your Losses and Go Home.
Wrong.
If the team is losing money, attendance is an issue - period. Regardless of how high they rank in the league or before what percent of capacity they're playing. Empty seats represent lost revenue.
Gibbie42
Registered User
Attendance is only one piece of the money equation. Controlling costs is equally important. Costs like leases, which is the big one right now.
CrazyEddie20
Hey RuZZia - Cut Your Losses and Go Home.
Well, they can't reign in the costs resultant from their poorly-negotiated lease agreement right now without modifying the lease contract. They CAN, however, sell more tickets and improve their revenue in the short term and cut the losses a tad.
Gibbie42
Registered User
They're not trying to modify the lease, they're renewing it. It ends at the conclusion of the 2015/16 season. That's why they're trying to get more favorable lease terms. It will reduce operating costs. In addition to everything else they're doing.
As a comparison, here's a link describing the terms of a lease extension for Norfolk's ECHL team.
http://www.pilotonline.com/sports/h...cle_944285bf-1ccc-5b5b-b18e-7fc961a19a98.html
"The Admirals will pay $1 per year in rent to the city, and the city will receive “admissions tax†and food and beverage commissions. In the 2015 fiscal year, that amounted to $172,241 and $169,609, respectively"
http://www.pilotonline.com/sports/h...cle_944285bf-1ccc-5b5b-b18e-7fc961a19a98.html
"The Admirals will pay $1 per year in rent to the city, and the city will receive “admissions tax†and food and beverage commissions. In the 2015 fiscal year, that amounted to $172,241 and $169,609, respectively"
Sports Enthusiast
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Sports Enthusiast
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[MOD] Usually last place teams draw like ****. Its not like there's a lot out there dedicated to minor league sports attendance. The site doesn't really focus on it.
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offkilter
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- Jan 18, 2014
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Go to echl.com hover the cursor on the stats tab and on the drop down menu there will be a link to click on for attendance.
If you are using mobile just click on the menu tab in the upper right corner and scroll down to the attendance link under the stats header.
Got it? Maybe I need to upload a how to video for you to youtube? You do know what youtube is right? How streaming video works?
Oh the hell with it here's the links.
standard website
http://echl.com/stats/schedule.php?view=attendance
mobile
http://www.echl.com/mobile/schedule.php?view=attendance&season_id=&bblh=mSafari
210
Registered User
Sports Enthusiast
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I am using my phone so that is a part of it I suppose.
No need for the crack on YouTube. Just because someone is lazy and doesn't know all the intereorkings of how each site is on mobile doesn't mean they aren't educated. Some sites are awful on mobile and haven't adapted. That is one thing I hate about this site. You can throw a shot like that but if I throw one back the power hungry mods will take their overrated job too seriously and edit the post or something lame like that and probably leave yours totally be.
Sports Enthusiast
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I think the hockey market in Evansville has been effectively tapped by Geary. There probably isn't much more potential room to grow attendance numbers/ticket sales for the Icemen. Obviously, the on-ice product this season is not very good, but for a market the size of Evansville, their turnout is very good regardless of W-L stats.
This ultimately comes down to which party is willing to lose money so Evansville can have hockey. If Geary is expected to eat a lion's share of the cost, then he may just throw in the towel. If the city is expected to bear a greater burden (via lease "giveaways" to the Icemen), local politicians may face the wrath of voters who don't think government's role is to subsidize minor league sports teams.
Both parties will have to compromise, which means both will likely still lose money on this venture. As we know all too well, minor league hockey is not an industry that consistently -- or even casually -- turns profits.
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