Erik Karlsson vs Drew Doughty (All time)

[tacogeoff]

So still EK? Yup.
Poll should be closed as it is a very obvious result.

 

[wetcoast]

Every player has a role to play. Sidney Crosby, for example, generally isn’t asked to play defense and when he does he’s a pylon like Erik Karlsson. But it doesn’t matter much because Crosby is a forward whose role is to score.

There it's fixed the real MJ is back again.

 

[wetcoast]

The only time this has ever been Doughty is when Karlsson was still on Frolunda.

You are 100% right EK was a much better player than Doughty in the AHL right?

 

[Xspyrit]

One guy has 4 Norris and the other has zero... hmmm hard choice

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Doughty was robbed of a Norris in 2015 so his reputation win in 2016 is a wash.

 

[AvroArrow]

One guy has 4 Norris and the other has zero... hmmm hard choice

One guy has 2 cups and can actually defend at a very high level, the other guy might be one of the worst players at actually defending in the entire league.

Karlsson is all offence, zero effort and abilities defensively.

 

[Xspyrit]

One guy has 2 cups and can actually defend at a very high level, the other guy might be one of the worst players at actually defending in the entire league.

Karlsson is all offence, zero effort and abilities defensively.

That's a very basic understand of the game of hockey if you really think this.

 

[norrisnick]

That's a very basic understand of the game of hockey if you really think this.

A basic understanding is better than not understanding at all.

 

[Xspyrit]

A basic understanding is better than not understanding at all.

It's ok, I have seen people try to explain but it won't change anything. It's well known that some will just prefer to comfortably bask in their archaic ways

 

[blundluntman]

The wording of the question makes it a bit more complicated than you would think. If we're talking about the better defenseman (whose job is primarily well.... to defend), Doughty is better. But I guess it changes if you don't scale one element of their game over the other. Positionally, Karlsson is inferior to Doughty but he does produce at a level offensively that even most forwards can't touch when he's at his best. So the real question is: would you rather have a 60 point defenseman that's good in both ends or a player that's top 5 in scoring and a threat for 100 points when playing at their best? If you evaluate Karlsson's contributions the same way you would a forward, it's actually a bit closer and could likely go either way.

At least, that's the way I see it.

 

[norrisnick]

It's ok, I have seen people try to explain but it won't change anything. It's well known that some will just prefer to comfortably bask in their archaic ways

You're telling me. Some just don't want to believe that there can be a benefit to at least trying to limit chances against. All gas no brakes 4 lyfe!! or something... 80's are over. Time to evolve.

 

[Seanaconda]

He was a top 3 player in the league only truly rivaled by MacKinnon for the #2 spot last season. Did you watch SJ play a lot?

This string of posts was about one poster claiming he didn't get any praise when he was a sen

Doughty was robbed of a Norris in 2015 so his reputation win in 2016 is a wash.

I can agree with that even tho it was lame of the NHL to give Lindstrom another as a makeup as well.


They need another lockout to reset it and do it based on the year so they stop doing that.

 

[wetcoast]

So basically his offense should have won him the Norris that year and Doughty wasn’t deserving even though he was the better of the two overall as a defenseman? That’s all
I’m reading.

Doughty won it that year, get over it. Let’s not forget how the 2015 Norris voting went, where Doughty had more first place votes over EK, but EK still won. Was he robbed then?


While being a nightmare in his own end. Context is important. There’s no Hate required to point that out.

The whole context of EK being robbed is just silly, it's not like he won Norris trophies hands down along the way either.

Even this year 7 other guys had 1st place votes for the Norris and a couple of those guys would have had more if not for injuries (Makar and Dahlin got zero but his backslide coming back injured hurt him in the voting).

I had Doughty before last season and he still remains in top place ahead of EK all time for me and the guy I'd want at more stages in his career for a season and/or playoff.

 

[Fatass]

Really depends on what we want. If I want a guy who is going to put up some points, while playing stout D and we win Cups then I want DD. If we want a guy who is a special offensively gifted player who is as fun as heck to watch every game? Then it’s EK. Personally I like watching EK play. He makes every game exciting.

 

[wetcoast]

It's ok, I have seen people try to explain but it won't change anything. It's well known that some will just prefer to comfortably bask in their archaic ways

It's fair to have an opinion but Doughty has 1 Norris and EK65 has 3 why state otherwise?

This statement of yours is simply not true.

One guy has 4 Norris and the other has zero... hmmm hard choice

Also if you are trying to infer that EK65 is on the same level of Doughty over their respective playoff careers I got news for you.....

 

[Seanaconda]

The wording of the question makes it a bit more complicated than you would think. If we're talking about the better defenseman (whose job is primarily well.... to defend), Doughty is better. But I guess it changes if you don't scale one element of their game over the other. Positionally, Karlsson is inferior to Doughty but he does produce at a level offensively that even most forwards can't touch when he's at his best. So the real question is: would you rather have a 60 point defenseman that's good in both ends or a player that's top 5 in scoring and a threat for 100 points when playing at their best? If you evaluate Karlsson's contributions the same way you would a forward, it's actually a bit closer and could likely go either way.

At least, that's the way I see it.

I agree with not liking the wording . Different reasons but it makes the poll flawed imo

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Hm being 2nd in the entire league in 5v5 points as a Dman playing on the weakest roster in the league… And you’re comparing that to what? Being a 10-15 Dman? As I said, the hate…

How about his defense?

Defensive contributions, somehow Doughty made this list though:

Meanwhile, Karlsson 50% more ES points than the second-best defenseman. For perspective, the forward with the most ES points had 1.3% more than the second-best forward.

I wonder if you ever get tired of having bad takes.

So he made a list of a negative defensive category. I’m not arguing he’s the best in the league at this, which isn’t close to dispositive of the discussion of who was better defensively. Do you want to bring out the chart of most goals allowed 5 on 5? Karlsson would be at the top of the chart.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The whole context of EK being robbed is just silly, it's not like he won Norris trophies hands down along the way either.

Even this year 7 other guys had 1st place votes for the Norris and a couple of those guys would have had more if not for injuries (Makar and Dahlin got zero but his backslide coming back injured hurt him in the voting).

I had Doughty before last season and he still remains in top place ahead of EK all time for me and the guy I'd want at more stages in his career for a season and/or playoff.

I also never understood the Team
Argument. Did Doughty overall play for better teams than EK has had to deal with? Absolutely. But were they high level teams because of him? Absolutely. People want to put down Doughty because he isn’t a PPG(or near it) defenseman, even thought he’s no slouch offensively and at his best was among the top defensively. The kings don’t have two Stanley cups without Doughty.

How about his defense?



So he made a list of a negative defensive category. I’m not arguing he’s the best in the league at this, which isn’t close to dispositive of the discussion of who was better defensively. Do you want to bring out the chart of most goals allowed 5 on 5? Karlsson would be at the top of the chart.

You are going to hear a lot of whining about empty goals, bad line mates, and an overall bad team. EK doesn’t have to have any responsibility in his own end, it’s everyone else’s fault but his. Everyone else is the problem defensively, it’s never him.

 

[Ben White]

I also never understood the Team
Argument. Did Doughty overall play for better teams than EK has had to deal with? Absolutely. But were they high level teams because of him? Absolutely. People want to put down Doughty because he isn’t a PPG(or near it) defenseman, even thought he’s no slouch offensively and at his best was among the top defensively. The kings don’t have two Stanley cups without Doughty.


You are going to hear a lot of whining about empty goals, bad line mates, and an overall bad team. EK doesn’t have to have any responsibility in his own end, it’s everyone else’s fault but his. Everyone else is the problem defensively, it’s never him.

Regardless you can’t really blame him for EN goals against can you?

 

[North Cole]

You're telling me. Some just don't want to believe that there can be a benefit to at least trying to limit chances against. All gas no brakes 4 lyfe!! or something... 80's are over. Time to evolve.

Ironically the idea that there's a "benefit to limiting chances against" is less evolved than the modern usage of a 1D. Limiting chances is nice but it's just one tool in any given system. If the goal was 'limting chances against,' then Daryl Sutter would probably still have a job.

 

[norrisnick]

Ironically the idea that there's a "benefit to limiting chances against" is less evolved than the modern usage of a 1D. Limiting chances is nice but it's just one tool in any given system. If the goal was 'limting chances against,' then Daryl Sutter would probably still have a job.

I'm not seeing anything "modern" about EK's usage. That's vintage Paul Coffey. Modern would imply he's doing something new and innovative. It's not hard to play real hard with the puck and be a matador without it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Regardless you can’t really blame him for EN goals against can you?

plenty of other stats have been provided that show the lack of in his own end. The EN goal argument is to preserve his +/-

 

[Akrapovince]

The argument against Karlsson in regards defense and effort levels pre-Matt Cooke is comical.

People will say his gap control is terrible, but that just wasn’t the way a gifted skater in Karlsson would defend.

While defending zone entries and one on one situations, it was almost a staple for him to let forwards think they beat him, pivot and catch them while they are both skating the same direction. His stick work was pretty damn good too.

This type of defending doesn’t scream zero effort to me as well.

Karlsson’s peak overall play was so damn impressive that he looked effortless in both ends of the ice so I can see where people can get the wrong idea about effort but it just wasn’t true.

I’m not going to sit here and say he was within striking distance of Doughty defensively but that does not cover the distance of everything else.

 

[Ben White]

The argument against Karlsson in regards defense and effort levels pre-Matt Cooke is comical.

People will say his gap control is terrible, but that just wasn’t the way a gifted skater in Karlsson would defend.

While defending zone entries and one on one situations, it was almost a staple for him to let forwards think they beat him, pivot and catch them while they are both skating the same direction. His stick work was pretty damn good too.

This type of defending doesn’t scream zero effort to me as well.

Karlsson’s peak overall play was so damn impressive that he looked effortless in both ends of the ice so I can see where people can get the wrong idea about effort but it just wasn’t true.

I’m not going to sit here and say he was within striking distance of Doughty defensively but that does not cover the distance of everything else.

Pre Cooke in 2013 Karlsson was amazing defensively

 

[SettlementRichie10]

According to HF, Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, and Brown all benefited from playing on great teams, but none of that team greatness can be attributed to them individually.