Erik Karlsson vs Drew Doughty (All time)

[The Gr8 Dane]

people not seeing the defensive value of getting the puck out of your own zone explains a lot of the awful Karlsson takes that have been floating around here over the years

Yeah I think people think playing defence is just plastering people to the boards ,

I said it in the other thread on EK , if he's so bad why does he tilt the ice in his teams favor at 5 on 5 more than any other dman in the league? Why did he just win his easiest norris of his career as a 33 year old with his eyes closed

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Yeah I think people think playing defence is just plastering people to the boards ,

I said it in the other thread on EK , if he's so bad why does he tilt the ice in his teams favor at 5 on 5 more than any other dman in the league? Why did he just win his easiest norris of his career as a 33 year old with his eyes closed

He was on-ice for the exact same number of goals for as against 5v5. I'm not sure how that is considered greatly tilting the ice.

 

[Agent Zub]

People still trying to argue this lol

Put doughty on budget Melnyk teams and he has a relatively unspecial career. No cups, likely no Norris.

Put Karlsson on those stacked defensive kings teams and he would have only done better.

 

[LokiDog]

Even when this thread was originally created, this wasn’t close. It’s never been close. Also, as other have mentioned - the takes on Karlsson’s defense are tired, unoriginal, and lazy. Sure, he isn’t a white-on-rice, shutdown force. As others have mentioned, controlling the puck, keeping it out of your end, retrieving and seamlessly transitioning the puck out of your end all equate to effectively defending your end.

Doughty was a great all-around defenseman. Karlsson was a special player regardless of position who was much more rare and unique and whose “greatness” far exceeds Doughty’s. That’s just the way sports work. There’ve been plenty of really great, all around solid, team first champion caliber players who were simply remembered as being a great player. Then there’s players like EK who will be remember for much, much longer in a much more legendary light.

 

[GreatGonzo]

People still trying to argue this lol

Put doughty on budget Melnyk teams and he has a relatively unspecial career. No cups, likely no Norris.

Put Karlsson on those stacked defensive kings teams and he would have only done better.

You can’t guarantee this. Doughty was a work horse those cup years and was a huge reason they won two cups. You can’t treat him like a piece that could get easily replaced. EKs run and gun style might not compliment the Kings defense

By the way those Kings teams weren’t “stacked.” The 2012 were the 8th seed and the 2014 overcame plenty of adversity those playoffs. And again, Doughty is a huge reason for that

 

[norrisnick]

Questioning how a team can be get scored on so often despite one of its players having good individual metrics pretty much spells out the issue. The Sharks were a terrible team last year.

Karlsson doesn't PK. San Jose had the 8th best PK last season but bled goals in every other phase of the game. Hm...

 

[Agent Zub]

You can’t guarantee this. Doughty was a work horse those cup years and was a huge reason they won two cups. You can’t treat him like a piece that could get easily replaced. EKs run and gun style might not compliment the Kings defense

By the way those Kings teams weren’t “stacked.” The 2012 were the 8th seed and the 2014 overcame plenty of adversity those playoffs. And again, Doughty is a huge reason for that

Those Kings teams were stacked. Kopitar, Carter, Richards is crazy two way center depth than you have Sutter coaching extremely heavy two way hockey and Quick being a Vezina goalie.

Give Doughty Kyle Turris as his 1st line c, the cheapest coaches money can buy and I guarantee you Doughty is a lot more irrelevant. Just like he became when the kings got bad.

 

[CornerStone61]

I’m a fan of good defencemen who play sound, winning hockey. I’m a Leafs fan not a Kings fan.

I'm well aware of your fandom. I just thought it was funny that you were calling out a specific group of people for propping up Karlsson given the title under your profile name, coupled with how involved you were in all the previous threads

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah I think people think playing defence is just plastering people to the boards ,

I said it in the other thread on EK , if he's so bad why does he tilt the ice in his teams favor at 5 on 5 more than any other dman in the league? Why did he just win his easiest norris of his career as a 33 year old with his eyes closed

EK doesn't tilt the ice. It's high event for everyone. Tilting would imply you get your team lots of events and limit the opposition. He doesn't do that. It's just trading chances and hope for the best.

 

[ijuka]

You can’t guarantee this. Doughty was a work horse those cup years and was a huge reason they won two cups. You can’t treat him like a piece that could get easily replaced. EKs run and gun style might not compliment the Kings defense

By the way those Kings teams weren’t “stacked.” The 2012 were the 8th seed and the 2014 overcame plenty of adversity those playoffs. And again, Doughty is a huge reason for that

"EK's run and gun"

Take 11-12. Karlsson of the regulars is #2 on his team in CF%, only behind Alfredsson. In xGF%, also #2, only behind Foligno. Karlsson 46 5v5 points, Doughty 19 5v5 points. Doughty nowhere near Karlsson in advanced stats either, relative to team.

EK just was a stronger two-way player than Doughty. Two-way, indeed.

Wait, was? I mean, is.

EK doesn't tilt the ice. It's high event for everyone. Tilting would imply you get your team lots of events and limit the opposition. He doesn't do that. It's just trading chances and hope for the best.

Do you ever get tired of parroting completely incorrect and easily disprovable "stats" such as these? Karlsson greatly tilts the ice in his team's favor.

Tilting the ice means having a higher ratio of chances in comparison to your opponent with than without you. That's EXACTLY what Karlsson does. Only a complete lack of ability with regards to interpreting statistics could bring you to a different conclusion.

I'd suggest heading to naturalstattrick with your calculator open, and inputting some numbers.

 

[norrisnick]

Do you ever get tired of parroting completely incorrect and easily disprovable "stats" such as these? Karlsson greatly tilts the ice in his team's favor.

Tilting the ice means having a higher ratio of chances in comparison to your opponent with than without you. That's EXACTLY what Karlsson does. Only a complete lack of ability with regards to interpreting statistics could bring you to a different conclusion.

You might want to double check your definition of tilting.

 

[Golden_Jet]

If that's supposed to be a gotcha, its' actually an illustration of exactly the point

Makar gave up 38 goals
Karlsson...96

team effects doesn't account for EVERYTHING, yet that's the alibi he's gotten his whole career. When the team does great, its' because of karlsson...when the team does poorly, it's poor karlsson, what's he supposed to do? No one else gets that shelter.

The guy is a f***ing phenomenal generational offensive hockey player, he doesn't need to be perfect, and he doesn't need these bullshit excuses for his shit defensive play. If he WERE the full package he'd be the best dman of all time, and he's not, he's "merely" a surefire first ballot hall of famer amongst some of the greats. Apparently that's not enough and you're just a hater for suggesting otherwise.

If that was supposed to be a gotcha, It was poor, ……making my point

one team recently won the cup and just gave up a 100 fewer goals.

 

[spiny norman]

This thread is from 2020.

Any of you are welcome to start another one.