Erik Karlsson, Victor Hedman, Nicklas Lidström after 10 seasons

[GreatGonzo]

I find the level of defensemen today are very similar to the ones in 90s.

When you look at:
Bourque, Chelios, MacInnis, Coffey, and Leetch, Stevens, Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom.

EK is pretty much like the 'Paul Coffey' of this era.
And just like Paul Coffey, Al MacInnis, Brian Leetch, Phil Housley, or Sergei Zubov, in some years, their offensive output is so high you can overlook their defense.

Coffey's last Norris was in 95, when he lead an ultra-stacked Red Wings team in scoring, and was 6th in the league in points.
Coffey won a Norris over his team-mate Lidstrom in 1995, and he clearly tilted the ice a lot more than Lidstrom did that season.

Paul Coffey won 3 Norris trophies in his career over defensively superior players.


So don't try and pretent like EK is any different from previous eras. His prime overlapped with a Prime Duncan Keith, and Drew Doughty who are phenomenal 2-way players, and locks for the HHOF.
EK was also outgunned offensively by Burns and Subban whom he lost the Norris to in his prime. Just like Leetch and MacInnis won their Norris' over Coffey.

None of this makes any sense and doesn’t prove any point you have made...

Except the level of competition isn’t even close so I don’t see how you can make any argument. The 90s era of defensemen was significantly stronger, as you pointed out by listing multiple all stars, Norris winners, and many HOFers......who is EKs competition? He lost a Norris to Burns for crying out loud.

Keith had a lot of highs but wasn’t exactly the most consistently dominant defenseman. He’s now older and past his prime significantly......so who else do we have?

Your also forgetting how voters completely passed over Lidstrom because he wasn’t Canadian and wasn’t exactly a noise maker. That’s always been his style. Quiet, but nearly perfect. EK has a lot of style and flash that attracts a lot of voters. Coffey was also better defensively than EK was, while being dominant offensively.

Lidstrom took over the same way Brodeur did for goalies, but they were still very much near the top of their positions before that. The difference is Lidstrom continued to dominate for the better part of the rest of his career, mixed with a lot of playoff success as one, if not their most important piece. Lidstrom didn’t need to come out the gate running to be dominant, he maintained a level that was rare.

That’s great cause he has more points than Hedman in his first 10 year span . 422 points

I feel like Doughty doesn’t get as much appreciation as he should . He has more points than Hedman and I agree he is arguably the best defensive dman. Doughty is the type of player who can compete at a high level into his late 30s we are spoiled to have him. Long as he is our number 1 we will make 2-3 more runs I believe once Kupari and Turcotte and others make the team and we transition to a younger roster

Probably just the LA style perhaps. Very defensive oriented with Doughty eating up the heavy minutes. Mix that with a lot of up and downs for the organization.

 

[Golden_Jet]

EK65 for first 10 years

 

[TheTwelfth]

I dont get why people write Karlsson off. He was dominant when playing last season, and his vision & passing alone makes him one of the league's best offensive threats. I think he will contend for the Norris this season again.

 

[joe dirte]

Lidstrom was top 6 in norris voting 16 straight years, starting at age 25.

Let that sink in.

Yes, we all know he got even better in his 30s, but from 25 to 30, he was still a better dman than any of the others listed in this thread.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Karlsson has been such a divisive player. Incredibly talented offensively and in transition, but has glaring defensive coverage issues that IMO have always and will always keep him from being as great as some think he is.

He had a fantastic 2017 playoff campaign though. It was really impressive

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Also, I watched Lidstrom make guys like Ian White look like a legitimate all star defensemen playing with him and then couldn’t crack an nhl roster the following year. He was still better than just about everyone his last few years in the league.

Filip.

Kuba.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

I feel like Doughty doesn’t get as much appreciation as he should . He has more points than Hedman and I agree he is arguably the best defensive dman. Doughty is the type of player who can compete at a high level into his late 30s we are spoiled to have him. Long as he is our number 1 we will make 2-3 more runs I believe once Kupari and Turcotte and others make the team and we transition to a younger roster

Doughty’s already declining pretty hard

 

[Oddbob]

The people running down Lidstrom and his "competition" being "weak" are out to lunch and likely never watched the guy play. He was just that much better than most of his competition, and he controlled play unlike most top defenders. His calm with the puck in the o-zone and d-zone was what not only made Lidstrom extremely great, but it was integral to how good Detroit was, as they could know that for 27-28 minutes out there he would not only provide top end offence and defence, but a guy who made very few mistakes with the puck in any zone.

Early in his career he could have probably won 1 or 2 more Norris's, but he seemed to be overlooked early in his career, as voting trophies always go with the bigger story guys to get the trophies. It is why Rob Blake won a Norris, he wasn't even the Top 5 best defender the year he won, as there were at least 5 guys who not only had better stats, but played better, but he was a top guy in the media/voters viewpoint. Voting trophies are always going to be subjective, because the media members vote the winner more on who was the better/bigger story, rather than on performance unless someone blows everyone away statistically and they would look foolish otherwise. It is why guys like Kuznetsov likely didn't win the Conn Smythe, as there was no way the media wasn't giving that to Ovechkin. Not downplaying Ovechkin who was huge during that run, but Kuznetsov was just better, but not as good a story, so no win. Same with Kessel the year he lost to Crosby and so on.

Also, try looking at Bobby Orr's run of dominance, there aren't a lot of great names he beat out each year. Definitely no more than Lidstrom or any other good defender who won multiple Norris's. Does that mean that Orr wasn't very great? During Orr's dominant 6 or 7 seasons his biggest name each season was Brad Park and once he got hurt, bigger name guys were coming in at the end of Orr's career, which is probably why people think he had a great competition for top D when he played.

 

[Kingsfan1]

Doughty’s already declining pretty hard

Lmao he just had a career year before this last year and had his worst year this year but not points wise and he’s declining hard ? I’m guessing you don’t watch to much hockey

 

[Patty Ice]

Lmao he just had a career year before this last year and had his worst year this year but not points wise and he’s declining hard ? I’m guessing you don’t watch to much hockey

This is HFBoards. Blanket statements with no factual or intellectual thought are thrown around here like beads during Mardi Gras.

 

[psycat]

I love Lidstrom, but I'm gonna state the obvious here.

When Lidstrom was in his 30s, his competition for NHL Dmen was really weak.

When he was younger, he lost to Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis, Leetch, Chelios, Blake.

But as he got older his only peers for nearly an entire decade were Pronger and Niedermayer (who's play declined WAY earlier than his). And even Niedermayer wasn't effective for half the decade, as his primary skill of skating was stifled behind the New Jersey Trap/DPE , and was only unleashed after the 06 lockout when he was already 32.

Neither of their games really aged as well as Lidstroms.

Suter/Weber/Chara/Keith/Doughty were still new and just starting to come into their own, and hadn't really firmly entrenched their dominance.

For 11 years, Lidstrom was pencilled in as a Norris Finalist before the season even started.


Here are who Lidstrom was a finalist against by year:

2011 - Weber (nearly won it by a single vote) and Chara
2010 2009 - Did not win, but the winners and finalists were Chara + a 26 year old Keith, with Mike Green being a finalist twice.
2008 - Pfaneuf (lmfao) + Chara
2007 - Niedermayer + Pronger (they had their votes split as they both played for Anaheim)
2006 - Niedermayer + Zubov
2005 - Lockout
2004 - Niedermayer won
2003 - 39 year old Al MacInnis + Derian Hatcher (lul)
2002 - 40 year old Chelios who was also his team mate (lmfao) + Blake
2001 - 40 Year old Bourque + Scott Stevens





Lidstrom had such low levels of competition for that trophy for a VERY large window. A bunch of 40 year olds for the first half, and Chara+Green for the last bit.

Might be true but the competition nowadays is even more lackluster. Due Drew, pre-maturely declined Subban, the corpse of Erik Karlsson and so on.

 

[tony d]

Lidstrom got better as time went on. None of the current crop of Swedish defensemen will dethrone him. I think Dahlin ends up coming the closest.

 

[Sensinitis]

Filip.

Kuba.

Yeah, and Marc Methot got invited to a Team Canada camp because of EK

Lidstrom got better as he get older.

Are we reeeeeeaaaaaaaaaally expecting Karlsson to do the same?

Considering one of his most lethal traits is his vision and hockey IQ, I don't see why not. Either way, he doesn't have to get better, when healthy he's already best.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Yeah, and Marc Methot got invited to a Team Canada camp because of EK

lest we forget

he was a defensive monster in his own right but lolllllllllll team Canada

 

[Chips]

Norris trophies mean less and less to me these days. It’s largely a popularity contest.

Lidstrom is better thsn Hedman and Karlsson, pretty simple. Karlsson would compete if he plays near his prime level into the next decade, but that’s iffy. And I’d still take Lidstrom over him unless Karlsson massively outscores him.

It’s preference but I value defense over offense from a defenseman, in that you really just need to make good passes and your offense should handle most of the rest. Generally your best defensive forwards aren’t going to be as reliable as your best defenseman in your own zone.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Never bet against EK.

Unless he suffers another major injury he will dethrone Lidstrom, maybe not in terms of Norris wins but in impact on his team. Lidstrom played on a dynasty too.

"Maybe not in terms of Norris wins"...then what? Stanley Cups? Salary Cap AAV per point? How will this forthcoming mythical success manifest in terms of tangible results? Hard to tell what you're even saying here. If by "impact on his team" you mean setting records for turnovers, then I could see your post turning out to be true.

 

[ItWasJustified]

Defensemen peak around 30, so if Karlsson is injury free and fully healed I expect him to have at least 3-4 monster seasons. Just like Hedman if he can stay free of injuries.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Yep. He was number 1 in the league for about 5 to 8 years defensively, as well as top 10 offensively. His shot suppression stats are otherworldly for that period. No one got by him. No one.

The 2015/2016 season was out of control. Pure beast mode. He set the record for highest CORSI differential ever, narrowly beating datsyuk. The difference is that datsyuk, zetterberg, and lidstrom are all on that list 9f top CF+-, for the same season, where doughty was running solo, with the next closest king being nearly 120 shots behind. It took the trio of datsyuk, zets and lisstrom, to set those records, and doughty beat them on his 9wn. On a stingey low event team, its pretty clear what that says. The opposition was sinply stifled with doughty on the ice. They couldnt do a damn thing. He has a few other years very similar.

He was the best dman in the league for about a 5 to 8 year period, before he seems to have fallen off a bit, and hedman has taken over.

RNH once undressed Lidstrom.

So that is completely false.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Filip.

Kuba.

Marc Methot and Brenden Dillon say hello.

RNH once undressed Lidstrom.

So that is completely false.

His post was actually about Doughty.

Which makes it even more humorously inaccurate.

 

[joe dirte]

Marc Methot and Brenden Dillon say hello.



His post was actually about Doughty.

Which makes it even more humorously inaccurate.

Cant accept the truth.

 

[Patty Ice]

I dont get why people write Karlsson off. He was dominant when playing last season, and his vision & passing alone makes him one of the league's best offensive threats. I think he will contend for the Norris this season again.

HF mandated. Once you join the Sharks, you suck and are doomed to failure.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

It's gotten to the point where I can't even think about the greatness of Lidstrom without thinking about the Rory Fitzpatrick psa's.

 

[DFC]

I love Lidstrom. All Time great, I'd even rate him 3rd All-Time.
But for nearly a decade, he was the best Dman in a field of pretty mediocre Dmen.

I mean, look at some of the finalists he won over:
Pfaneuf, Hatcher, Green, 40 year old Bourque, and 40 year old Chelios.

These are guys that came 2nd to him!

Yeah, but some of those guys, regardless of their legacies, had phenomenal seasons when they were nominated. Didn't Mike Green score 30 goals that year?

 

[DFC]

None of this makes any sense and doesn’t prove any point you have made...

Except the level of competition isn’t even close so I don’t see how you can make any argument. The 90s era of defensemen was significantly stronger, as you pointed out by listing multiple all stars, Norris winners, and many HOFers......who is EKs competition? He lost a Norris to Burns for crying out loud.

Keith had a lot of highs but wasn’t exactly the most consistently dominant defenseman. He’s now older and past his prime significantly......so who else do we have?

Your also forgetting how voters completely passed over Lidstrom because he wasn’t Canadian and wasn’t exactly a noise maker. That’s always been his style. Quiet, but nearly perfect. EK has a lot of style and flash that attracts a lot of voters. Coffey was also better defensively than EK was, while being dominant offensively.

Lidstrom took over the same way Brodeur did for goalies, but they were still very much near the top of their positions before that. The difference is Lidstrom continued to dominate for the better part of the rest of his career, mixed with a lot of playoff success as one, if not their most important piece. Lidstrom didn’t need to come out the gate running to be dominant, he maintained a level that was rare.



Probably just the LA style perhaps. Very defensive oriented with Doughty eating up the heavy minutes. Mix that with a lot of up and downs for the organization.

re:bolded,

I don't know abou tthe Canadian part, but being so understated definitely hurt him, hardware-wise, in his early career. There's a quote from Steve Yzerman out there somewhere saying Lidstrom was their most important player from nearly the beginning of his career. It just took the league a while to realize how good he was.

 

[tacogeoff]

Lmao he just had a career year before this last year and had his worst year this year but not points wise and he’s declining hard ? I’m guessing you don’t watch to much hockey

doughty is good but not in the same range as the three mentioned above imo. Plus the poster listed all Swedish Dmen so I am not sure if he is kind of going that direction as well (best Swedish dman ever).

I like doughty as a player but his Norris win was mostly due to the fact that he was indeed "due" and Karlsson failed to make the playoffs. EK finished with more Hart votes as well.

I like this quote from one of Bob's articles that season. Doughty was clearly due and there is nothing wrong with that at all.


One GM who voted for Doughty did acknowledge he's a little bit conflicted by his own support.
“Like a lot of people, I believe [Doughty] is due to win his first Norris Trophy, and I do believe that," he said. "But I am wondering about the timing now. Look at Karlsson's season; look at the numbers he's putting up. It's incredible, really. I do sense there's this sentiment to make sure [Doughty] finally gets recognition, but I am kind of wondering if, given what Karlsson has done, this may be exactly the wrong time to give it."