Confirmed with Link: [EDM/TBL] Sam Gagner For Teddy Purcell; Then TBL Trades Gagner to ARZ Part II

[CornKicker]

hey guys our whole team is really bad... lets single out the injured player and blame it on him and not the Potter/belov/garbagekov/larsen/fraser etc etc

 

[harpoon]

Gagner was terrible, Replacement. He was terrible defensively.

False. His entire career he played on a team that had no plan beyond losing for the draft picks.
He played most of his career in front of AHL defensemen and AHL goaltending.
He played his entire career for coaches that for the most part couldn't design a breakout if their lives depended on it.
I'll be willing to take any bets that Gagner is not a defensive liability in Phoenix.
Avatar, cash, whatever.

 

[McDrailers]

If he was asked to watch his man score from the slot while gliding back 15 feet away from him, he went above and beyond.

so true

 

[guymez]

So...in what way was Gagner a fit for the Edmonton Oilers?

 

[nabob]

What a shocker to see the president and VP of the SS fan club trying to say that lil Sammy wasn't a poor defensive player. And then blame his lack of improvement in any aspect of his game on everything but the player himself.

7 seasons in and he is a worse player than he was as a 18 year old kid.

 

[nabob]

Now that he has been totally embarrassed and basically given away as an unwanted salary dump I'm sure he will be motivated to become a better player and actually play hard and to the best of his ability. If he doesn't it really says a lot about the guy. He was a golden boy here for years who had every excuse made for him in the book. Looks like he's out of excuses now and he will actually have to earn ice time and respect from fans for the first time in his career

 

[Beerfish]

So...in what way was Gagner a fit for the Edmonton Oilers?

He wasn't, this is why Craig MacTavish and the rest of the 'braintrust' should be kicked in the nuts for not moving the guy when he had a good strike shortened year and his value was higher.

 

[Beerfish]

Now that he has been totally embarrassed and basically given away as an unwanted salary dump I'm sure he will be motivated to become a better player and actually play hard and to the best of his ability. If he doesn't it really says a lot about the guy. He was a golden boy here for years who had every excuse made for him in the book. Looks like he's out of excuses now and he will actually have to earn ice time and respect from fans for the first time in his career

Boy this is such a sheer and utter load of crap.

 

[harpoon]

What a surprise to see several posters who have made a career at hfoil being spectacularly wrong in their evaluations of almost every player on the team keeping their track record intact with their comments on Gagner's career.

 

[nabob]

Boy this is such a sheer and utter load of crap.

He was given away for nothing. If he isn't embarrassed then something is wrong with him.
He had never had to earn ice time in his career. He was the default #2C, look at the players he had to compete with for ice time, such a sad list. Any other team would have improved their center depth and traded him years ago.

 

[guymez]

He wasn't, this is why Craig MacTavish and the rest of the 'braintrust' should be kicked in the nuts for not moving the guy when he had a good strike shortened year and his value was higher.

In terms of value I think there is an argument to be made that the team would have been better off to trade Gagner 2 years ago. Tough to dispute that.

That said there is a whole lot of pro Gagner anti Gagner rhetoric in this thread and I haven't seen any coherent arguments illustrating why he was a fit for this team.

 

[Worraps]

What a surprise to see several posters who have made a career at hfoil being spectacularly wrong in their evaluations of almost every player on the team keeping their track record intact with their comments on Gagner's career.

So let me get this straight: the posters who have been saying Sam Gagner isn't a legitimate top 6 NHL centre for years are "spectacularly wrong" and you and Replacement have been proven right by the following sequence of events:

2014-06-29 Lightning Sam Gagner Teddy Purcell trade with Oilers
2014-06-29 Oilers Teddy Purcell Sam Gagner trade with Lightning
2014-06-29 Coyotes Sam Gagner, B.J. Crombeen 2015 sixth round pick (?-?) trade with Lightning
2014-06-29 Lightning 2015 sixth round pick (?-?) Sam Gagner, B.J. Crombeen trade with Coyotes

 

[Aerchon]

One thing that I've always found telling about Gagner is at no point from any other organization or fan base or international hockey base EVER been high on Sam Gagner.

He has never had good trade value. He has always been viewed as a one dimensional forward who hurts his team at least as much as he helps.

Always.

 

[nabob]

So let me get this straight: the posters who have been saying Sam Gagner isn't a legitimate top 6 NHL centre for years are "spectacularly wrong" and you and Replacement have been proven right by the following sequence of events:

2014-06-29 Lightning Sam Gagner Teddy Purcell trade with Oilers
2014-06-29 Oilers Teddy Purcell Sam Gagner trade with Lightning
2014-06-29 Coyotes Sam Gagner, B.J. Crombeen 2015 sixth round pick (?-?) trade with Lightning
2014-06-29 Lightning 2015 sixth round pick (?-?) Sam Gagner, B.J. Crombeen trade with Coyotes

You misses the part where Tampa ate a chunk of Sammy's cap hit. He never even came close to playing for them. In fact I bet that if Phoenix wasn't trying to make sure that they hit the cap floor them Gagner would have been on waivers as speculated.

 

[Worraps]

One thing that I've always found telling about Gagner is at no point from any other organization or fan base or international hockey base EVER been high on Sam Gagner.

He has never had good trade value. He has always been viewed as a one dimensional forward who hurts his team at least as much as he helps.

Always.

This can't possibly be right, Don Maloney was high enough on him give up a fraction of a sixth round pick for him once Tampa agreed to pay a third of his salary for the next two seasons.

Steve Yzerman was high enough on him to prefer buying out his contract to buying out Purcell's. Luckily for him he still gets the opportunity to sign his name to a series of cheques made out to the one and only Sammy Snowpants. Add that to the Coyote's sixth round pick and Stevie Y makes out like a bandit.

 

[Replacement*]

False. His entire career he played on a team that had no plan beyond losing for the draft picks.
He played most of his career in front of AHL defensemen and AHL goaltending.
He played his entire career for coaches that for the most part couldn't design a breakout if their lives depended on it.
I'll be willing to take any bets that Gagner is not a defensive liability in Phoenix.
Avatar, cash, whatever.

Its pretty sad what this club has done with Smyth, Horc, Gilbert, Hemsky, Gagner and any players that were in the mix longterm here. Basically left them stranded for years which is enough to deepsix a lot of players, and then go get a platoon of young players and abandon them all again. While every year getting rid of players that actually cared to be here for ones that come over because the money is good.

People expect the new arrivals to show MORE dedication? How has that worked out so far?

Most competitive teams realize a core of established vet players is important in maintaining a sense of team and that you just don't airlift a new platoon in every year and expect anybody to care.

 

[Replacement*]

So...in what way was Gagner a fit for the Edmonton Oilers?

"Fit" infers that there is something to "Fit" to. In a chaotic system what added ingredient "fits"

This is the problem I have with this concept.

In no way are the Oilers a club where just a couple improvements will spark a well oiled machine.

Its like saying what kind of new Tranny is a fit for an Edsel.

If this was a club with a clear vision of how it plays, what it needs, and an established path to success then fit becomes relevant.

Right now whats going on in recent years is guilt by association mass exodus. Get rid of any player that ever cared here and erase all memories and hope somehow the stench clears out. Typically orgs that engage in this have management that realize the inner workings of the org were so bad that they in essence clear shop. So that theres no old stories, no lineage to all the trouble. Typically as well such orgs continue to flounder with management largely unchanged. What this only services is managerial continuance. At the price of the hired help.

Theres no plan, thus theres no fit at this stage. Theres just an assemblage of players who are either talented or not. I'm no particular Hemsky fan but there can be no question that forwards going out, Gagner and Hemsky, are infinitely more talented than Pouliot, Purcell coming in. This too will be evident soon enough.

 

[McDraekke]

Its pretty sad what this club has done with Smyth, Horc, Gilbert, Hemsky, Gagner and any players that were in the mix longterm here. Basically left them stranded for years which is enough to deepsix a lot of players, and then go get a platoon of young players and abandon them all again. While every year getting rid of players that actually cared to be here for ones that come over because the money is good.

People expect the new arrivals to show MORE dedication? How has that worked out so far?

Most competitive teams realize a core of established vet players is important in maintaining a sense of team and that you just don't airlift a new platoon in every year and expect anybody to care.

Not that they did a great job with it, but honestly, it seemed like the team held on to most of the players you mentioned longer than most people wanted. Horcoff got all of the chances in the world to play better here. Hemsky was given so many top minutes, and Smyth (other than the Lowe catastrophe) played for many years with the team. Most of the years that those three were playing here, I don't think the team did what you are suggesting. By the time Gagner, Cogs and Nilsson arrived, it was pretty clear that those three couldn't get it done without one of the biggest names in the dman pool.

And you can't make it a bad that the team went to get vet help from other teams and that it just went badly. No one saw the O'Sullivan or Pitkanen thing coming, Visnovsky was expected to play better for longer, Whitney played like a god until injury, Souray and the management team had misunderstandings, Cole never played for us the way he did for others... But when you look at 2006, we had plenty of out of town help that almost gave us a cup. Samsonov, Roloson, Peca, etc. Even though the Samsonov deal sent out Reasoner, it just about panned out for a Cup win.

 

[guymez]

"Fit" infers that there is something to "Fit" to. In a chaotic system what added ingredient "fits"

This is the problem I have with this concept.

In no way are the Oilers a club where just a couple improvements will spark a well oiled machine.

Its like saying what kind of new Tranny is a fit for an Edsel.

If this was a club with a clear vision of how it plays, what it needs, and an established path to success then fit becomes relevant.

Right now whats going on in recent years is guilt by association mass exodus. Get rid of any player that ever cared here and erase all memories and hope somehow the stench clears out.

Theres no plan, thus theres no fit at this stage. Theres just an assemblage of players who are either talented or not. I'm no particular Hemsky fan but there can be no question that forwards going out, Gagner and Hemsky, are infinitely more talented than the two signings coming in. This too will be evident soon enough.

So...let me rephrase the question.

What elements does Gagner bring to the table that makes him a valuable commodity?

 

[Replacement*]

So...let me rephrase the question.

What elements does Gagner bring to the table that makes him a valuable commodity?

Very talented player, offensive acumen. Good downlow PP skills, can also work the point, control the puck. Good passer, good team guy, covers back for D when they pinch, very versatile player that can play anywhere in top 3 lines.

All Gagner ever needed is some fairly complimentary vet players that can play two way. Nothing fancy either. Turns out the team needed that as well. Think about how odd it is that a 24yr old player that started here at age 18 rarely got to play long stints with two all round vet players. When did he ever get that support and consistency to settle in? The team fairly assumed he never needed it..Then years later without proiding any modeling expected the player to have the full all round aspects without either coaching, modeling, or designing team systems around that.

Oh but Gagner bad..

What will be obvious in Phoenix is that Gagners needs are farily easily addressed by a competent org. This club didn't service needs for any of its players except arguably topline. But then only by top pickdrafting them in..The Glacial approach to change.

 

[nabob]

So...let me rephrase the question.

What elements does Gagner bring to the table that makes him a valuable commodity?

Gagner cared.

 

[Replacement*]

Not that they did a great job with it, but honestly, it seemed like the team held on to most of the players you mentioned longer than most people wanted. Horcoff got all of the chances in the world to play better here. Hemsky was given so many top minutes, and Smyth (other than the Lowe catastrophe) played for many years with the team. Most of the years that those three were playing here, I don't think the team did what you are suggesting. By the time Gagner, Cogs and Nilsson arrived, it was pretty clear that those three couldn't get it done without one of the biggest names in the dman pool.

And you can't make it a bad that the team went to get vet help from other teams and that it just went badly. No one saw the O'Sullivan or Pitkanen thing coming, Visnovsky was expected to play better for longer, Whitney played like a god until injury, Souray and the management team had misunderstandings, Cole never played for us the way he did for others... But when you look at 2006, we had plenty of out of town help that almost gave us a cup. Samsonov, Roloson, Peca, etc. Even though the Samsonov deal sent out Reasoner, it just about panned out for a Cup win.

Do you ever think that what I'm saying has any merit. That players that are typically serviceable elsewhere come here and kind of **** the bed because this is the worst org to be associated with and that it doesn't take them all that long to figure it out. I could provide a long list of players that looked around here and figured that they had no particular interest in being here longterm. Not because of Edmonton, because of the org.
Plus that your list is just a shortlist of the catastrophes and trainwrecks. What competent team in the NHL starts the season with around 8 fairly random additions each year? What team does that year after year and expects to have any kind of cohesion on a 20 player club.

Taylor Hall is the longest serving player on this club. Think about that. This is team chaos. No plan, no stability, no clue.

 

[McShogun99]

False. His entire career he played on a team that had no plan beyond losing for the draft picks.
He played most of his career in front of AHL defensemen and AHL goaltending.
He played his entire career for coaches that for the most part couldn't design a breakout if their lives depended on it.
I'll be willing to take any bets that Gagner is not a defensive liability in Phoenix.
Avatar, cash, whatever.

Gagner is going to get between 60-65 points next year, while being a plus player. Posters will then start coming why we gave up on him.

 

[Aerchon]

Gagner is going to get between 60-65 points next year, while being a plus player. Posters will then start coming why we gave up on him.

Not sure if you are joking.

Gagner under Tippet will go one of two directions.

1. He follows Tippet's system. Spends the season learning defense. Gets top line minutes and PP time... ends up with roughly 35 points and is only single digit plus/minus. Without cheating or having extremely offensive minded line mates Gagners production will suffer immensely.

2. Ignores Tippet's system. Continues to cheat offensively. Gets worse and worse minutes as the year goes on... ends up with roughly 40 points and is double digit minus. I can't see Gagner really doing well under Tippet with the bad habits he has and I wouldn't be surprised if his next contract is of the 1 million show me you belong in the NHL type on another team.

 

[oilz89*]

Do you ever think that what I'm saying has any merit. That players that are typically serviceable elsewhere come here and kind of **** the bed because this is the worst org to be associated with and that it doesn't take them all that long to figure it out. I could provide a long list of players that looked around here and figured that they had no particular interest in being here longterm. Not because of Edmonton, because of the org.
Plus that your list is just a shortlist of the catastrophes and trainwrecks. What competent team in the NHL starts the season with around 8 fairly random additions each year? What team does that year after year and expects to have any kind of cohesion on a 20 player club.

Taylor Hall is the longest serving player on this club. Think about that. This is team chaos. No plan, no stability, no clue.

Man I really respect you for defending Gagner but the truth is he just isn't a very good player. There's a reason that draft only produced 3-4 good players. Now I liked Gagner too before last season and thought he was coming into his own probably. But that wasn't true and lets atleast admit he isnt that good at defence at all. But he had no value. i mean BJ Crombeen and a 6th round pick from PHX? Heck we got Teddy Purcell who can play 2nd-3rd line. I say thats a good trade and good enough value for Sammy