Rumor: Dreger says Ducks Talking to Pens/Leafs/Philly (blueliner)

[mpp9]

That might be too much money for us to take on unless there was a forward making around a million we could demote or move. Know of anyone?

Demoting Maatta and keeping Koun on LTIR keeps us compliant for the time being.

If Jokinen or Glass get in the way of Palmieri finding a spot on this team, then yeah, I doubt Shero pulls the trigger.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

The only one I disagree with is Maatta. I want him playing one more year in junior and one in the A. Still way too raw and he'll be a better player for it.

agreed. as good as he might look in this window, he still needs to gain some muscle to last a full season against men. we saw him get destroyed with his head down once already - he's lucky to have gotten up no worse for wear. if he stayed up, I wouldn't count on him playing more than 60 games. it's a little too risky as far as burning a year on his contract considering the depth available. he could stay up and have a decent year learning on the fly, or he could come back at some point in the next two years ready to dominate (aka the Red Wing way). either way, we have every reason to be excited about his future.

 

[Kovifan27]

If the trade is around Nisky the Pens would be taking back at least what 1.5 mil in salary right?

So you're looking at Belesky, Palmieri, Winnick I'd assume. Not a great pool to grab from minus Palmieri.

If they take Orpik you need to take more back in salary or retain some. I don't see Shero retaining salary.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

re my last point: I know Maatta is probably big enough to last, but there's a reason only like 8 teenage defensemen have played a full year over the past decade. it's the most physically demanding position, and that's on top of the fact that you're talking about teenagers going up against grown men.

 

[KIRK]

re my last point: I know Maatta is probably big enough to last, but there's a reason only like 8 teenage defensemen have played a full year over the past decade. it's the most physically demanding position, and that's on top of the fact that you're talking about teenagers going up against grown men.

Question: Who were the 8? I know one was Vlasic, and he played 22 minutes a night from day one. No physical specimen. Who were the other 7? I guess what I'm asking is were the guys we're talking about fully developed physically, or could you have said the same thing about most or all of them that you're saying about Maatta?

agreed. as good as he might look in this window, he still needs to gain some muscle to last a full season against men. we saw him get destroyed with his head down once already - he's lucky to have gotten up no worse for wear. if he stayed up, I wouldn't count on him playing more than 60 games. it's a little too risky as far as burning a year on his contract considering the depth available. he could stay up and have a decent year learning on the fly, or he could come back at some point in the next two years ready to dominate (aka the Red Wing way). either way, we have every reason to be excited about his future.

And, within 10 seconds of getting destroyed, he got his stick, got into position, and took away a gimme goal from Steve Bernier by taking away his stick. Would Niskanen have done the same? Heck, even Orpik would've been looking for someone to hit back instead of doing what Maatta did.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Question: Who were the 8? I know one was Vlasic, and he played 22 minutes a night from day one. No physical specimen. Who were the other 7? I guess what I'm asking is were the guys we're talking about fully developed physically, or could you have said the same thing about most or all of them that you're saying about Maatta?

And, within 10 seconds of getting destroyed, he got his stick, got into position, and took away a gimme goal from Steve Bernier by taking away his stick. Would Niskanen have done the same? Heck, even Orpik would've been looking for someone to hit back instead of doing what Maatta did.

Fowler is one - about the same size as Maatta. so they're definitely not all 6'4" specimens. great skating helps though. Maatta has improved that area a lot but still has work to do. he definitely has the funniest/most unorthodox stride in the league right now... just an observation, not a knock per se.

as for what Niskanen or Orpik would do - I don't remember the last time either got caught with their head down like that. though going along with your thought that he learns every shift and probably won't repeat the same mistakes, I don't see that happening again anytime soon. I was very impressed with how he got right back up and made a nice play.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Letang played as a teenager, right?

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

and speaking of Fowler, Sbisa is an example of one who was kept up past 9 games but later sent down, thus burning a year on his ELC. he then spent the next season in the AHL.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Letang played as a teenager, right?

he was sent back to juniors as a teenager after playing less than 10 games.

 

[mpp9]

Management wouldn't keep him up unless they were convinced he's NHL ready and able to help us win in the playoffs.

I don't think anyone can be sure if he is until he gets a few more games under his belt.

 

[KIRK]

he was sent back to juniors as a teenager after playing less than 10 games.

Correct. And good point on Sbisa. Thing is, if you moved Nisky, for example, because you thought Maatta was ready and then he hit a wall, you've still got Despres and Dumoulin sitting there, and the deadline to make a move if need be.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Correct. And good point on Sbisa. Thing is, if you moved Nisky, for example, because you thought Maatta was ready and then he hit a wall, you've still got Despres and Dumoulin sitting there, and the deadline to make a move if need be.

true. I personally would feel better about just keeping Nisky, sending Maatta back, and still having Despres/Dumoulin if need be. Niskanen knows the system and fits it well. I would rather lose him for nothing in the summer than trade him just to create cap space that they'd need to trade another asset to fill (paying a steeper price near the deadline), all in the hopes of bringing in a guy who could do what Nisky could do (generally speaking). it's not the sexy path to take, but there's way less risk involved and the depth isn't really sacrificed.

with this team, it's at the point where you have to expect more cap space to open up due to injury. I don't think there's any reason to worry about the deadline at this point.

this is one of those "good problems" to have though. very interested to see how it all unfolds over the course of the season.

 

[KIRK]

true. I personally would feel better about just keeping Nisky, sending Maatta back, and still having Despres/Dumoulin if need be. Niskanen knows the system and fits it well. I would rather lose him for nothing in the summer than trade him just to create cap space that they'd need to trade another asset to fill (paying a steeper price near the deadline), all in the hopes of bringing in a guy who could do what Nisky could do (generally speaking). it's not the sexy path to take, but there's way less risk involved and the depth isn't really sacrificed.

with this team, it's at the point where you have to expect more cap space to open up due to injury. I don't think there's any reason to worry about the deadline at this point.

this is one of those "good problems" to have though. very interested to see how it all unfolds over the course of the season.

You know, IAmError29 started that Orpik rental thread, and a Kings fan said 'we'd be interested'. It got me thinking. The parallel for moving Orpik would be what the Kings did with Jack Johnson, moved one of their top four guys because they believed they could rely more on their top three and get contributions from guys like Voynov. So, they took their asset and got an impact top six guy for him. Interesting parallel. Not Maatta related per se, but a historical reference for why maybe you keep Nisky and move Orpik, who has real value and who you really can't afford to keep (even if you can fit him under the cap).

 

[Speaking Moistly]

FORWARDS
Kyle Palmieri ($1.35m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Chris Kunitz ($3.750m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Chuck Kobasew ($0.550m) / Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.625m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m)
Zach Sill ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Rob Scuderi ($3.375m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)

CAP PAYROLL: $61,361,000


It's so beautiful

Lose Glass, Sutter and Niskanen. There would be enough to keep Niskanen or Sutter... or ****ing Glass could be the 13th forward. Assuming Despres is traded, if not then he could be in Maatta's place.

 

[jmelm]

If the trade is around Nisky the Pens would be taking back at least what 1.5 mil in salary right?

If they take Orpik you need to take more back in salary or retain some. I don't see Shero retaining salary.

I think you're missing something: the Pens are cap compliant RIGHT NOW, with Niskanen on the roster at $2.3 million. AND, that was with Vokoun ON THE ROSTER, which he is not right now, which means we're even further under the cap than we thought we'd be. (Plus, Letang is also out for a while, and a Maatta or Despres stepping in for him saves us $ too)

So sure: while they would be taking back anywhere between $800k to $1.5 million (depending on which of those young wingers they would be getting back in return), it wouldn't be more than Niskanen, and hence we would still be under the cap. I don't see the issue here. We're not over the cap, people, and we're not talking about taking on a $3 or 4+million winger.

And regarding Maatta: we're just taking advantage of Letang's absence by giving Maatta some NHL experience. I think there's no chance Maatta is here past 9 games, and for the same cap hit, we'll replace Maatta with Despres or Dumoulin (or even Harrington) if Letang were to still be out after those 9 games.

 

[KIRK]

I think you're missing something: the Pens are cap compliant RIGHT NOW, with Niskanen on the roster at $2.3 million. AND, that was with Vokoun ON THE ROSTER, which he is not right now, which means we're even further under the cap than we thought we'd be. (Plus, Letang is also out for a while, and a Maatta or Despres stepping in for him saves us $ too)

So sure: while they would be taking back anywhere between $800k to $1.5 million (depending on which of those young wingers they would be getting back in return), it wouldn't be more than Niskanen, and hence we would still be under the cap. I don't see the issue here. We're not over the cap, people, and we're not talking about taking on a $3 or 4+million winger.

And regarding Maatta: we're just taking advantage of Letang's absence by giving Maatta some NHL experience. I think there's no chance Maatta is here past 9 games, and for the same cap hit, we'll replace Maatta with Despres or Dumoulin (or even Harrington) if Letang were to still be out after those 9 games.

The only thing that makes me wonder about Nisky is why he isn't playing with Borts. It's not as if they couldn't have played Maatta with Scuds. Maybe Despres was sent to WBS to teach him a 'lesson'. Maybe Maatta gets a chance with Borts with an incredibly high bar and the spot goes to Despres if he falls short. Letang returns, and it's Nisky who gets moved. I just have my doubts about how Nisky will look at LD with Borts. I'm probably off about the organization's view on that subject, of course.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

The only thing that makes me wonder about Nisky is why he isn't playing with Borts. It's not as if they couldn't have played Maatta with Scuds.

Because if Maata played with Scuds, he'd be playing 20 min a night instead of playing 15 minutes Bort plays in the 3rd pairing. Niskanen has been here longer. The staff is going to trust him playing that extra 5 minutes a game.

It's not often you'd see a teenage defenseman coming in playing 20 minutes a night in the NHL.

Maata looks good out there but I would highly doubt he's going to be here past game 9 unless Shero gets really nutty and deals Niskanen and Despres when Tanger is back.

 

[KIRK]

Because if Maata played with Scuds, he'd be playing 20 min a night instead of playing 15 minutes Bort plays in the 3rd pairing. Niskanen has been here longer. The staff is going to trust him playing that extra 5 minutes a game.

It's not often you'd see a teenage defenseman coming in playing 20 minutes a night in the NHL.

Maata looks good out there but I would highly doubt he's going to be here past game 9 unless Shero gets really nutty and deals Niskanen and Despres when Tanger is back.

O'k, so you mix the shifts, which you do anyway coming out of special teams. And, Scuds actually plays about 18-19 ES minutes, so we wouldn't be talking more than 5-6 shifts with someone other than Maatta.

As I said, Nisky hasn't played on Borts left side, has he? How is that tandem going to look together? Any idea? I don't have one. It's the only reason I'm wondering if Nisky is on the block, regardless of what happens with Maatta. It's not like Despres and Dumoulin aren't natural-- perhaps more natural-- fits with Borts.

 

[JTG]

I think Bortuzzo is about a mile away from where he was last year. Watching him last season...he was so physically weak in his lower body and core. He's much, much more stable now. and guys aren't easily pushing him around.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Fowler is one - about the same size as Maatta. so they're definitely not all 6'4" specimens. great skating helps though. Maatta has improved that area a lot but still has work to do. he definitely has the funniest/most unorthodox stride in the league right now... just an observation, not a knock per se.

The new hybrid icing will take some of the grind out of the season for D men, and that could really help out a kid like Maatta. That being said, playing him that many games while Depres sits in the AHL is foolish.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The thing is, with Vokoun's injury relieving some of the cap pressure, with some minor shuffling of the lineup and playing with the injury list (*nudge, nudge, wink win, we learned this from watching the Liars . . . umm, I mean Flyers*) the Pens can afford to wait until the deadline to deal, right?

Unless the RIGHT deal came along just wait.

In fact if I were ranking the scenerios, this seems the most likely.

I think that a lot of you are going to be awfully disappointed when this plays out given how most are penciling this Duck forward or that Duck forward into the lineup.

 

[jmelm]

Because if Maata played with Scuds, he'd be playing 20 min a night instead of playing 15 minutes Bort plays in the 3rd pairing. Niskanen has been here longer. The staff is going to trust him playing that extra 5 minutes a game.

It's not often you'd see a teenage defenseman coming in playing 20 minutes a night in the NHL.

Maata looks good out there but I would highly doubt he's going to be here past game 9 unless Shero gets really nutty and deals Niskanen and Despres when Tanger is back.

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. Maatta is doing/has progressed extremely well for where he is at. I said it last year: from the beginning of last season until the end of last season, he improved more than not only any other prospect in our system, but probably more than any other prospect in our organization I have ever seen. But he still has a ways to go before he can prove to be able to not only maintain the quality of his play over the course of an 82 game season + playoffs. The Letang injury simply gave us a good excuse to give Maatta a longer look and a bit of experience by inserting him in for up to 9 games. Not to mention the Dumoulin injury....

Speaking of which: Dumoulin looked extremely impressive in both the rookie tournament and what he saw of the pre-season & training camp. Maatta may have higher long-term upside over Dumoulin, but Dumo is definitely ready to make the jump and play in the NHL right now, and to maintain that consistency over the course of a long season.

The thing is, with Vokoun's injury relieving some of the cap pressure, with some minor shuffling of the lineup and playing with the injury list (*nudge, nudge, wink win, we learned this from watching the Liars . . . umm, I mean Flyers*) the Pens can afford to wait until the deadline to deal, right?

Unless the RIGHT deal came along just wait.

In fact if I were ranking the scenerios, this seems the most likely.

I think that a lot of you are going to be awfully disappointed when this plays out given how most are penciling this Duck forward or that Duck forward into the lineup.

I don't see the Pens making a big deadline deal acquisition this year, as so many are saying. Last year, we gave away a TON of assets all at once to go all-in, and with 2nd round picks being some of the best currency at the trade deadline (and with us not having ours because of the Douglas Murray deal), I don't see us trading a 1st round pick or top prospect for an established player -- aka a move that would cause a big shift in our cap structure or necessitate somehow creating cap space.

If anything, I think what we will see is a straight-up hockey deal: one of our good young Dmen for another team's good young forward. Or if one of our young Dmen really steps up huge, such as Despres or Dumoulin, and renders a guy like Niskanen or Orpik tradeable, then you could see one of those impending UFA's moved...but again, that would be a straight up hockey deal, either for a younger forward or an older one at a similar cap hit (like a Setoguchi or Chris Stewart deal like we have talked about for a long time). I don't see the Pens doing anything to mortgage their future for a rental again this year, so I don't see the need to create cap space like everyone is talking about.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. Maatta is doing/has progressed extremely well for where he is at. I said it last year: from the beginning of last season until the end of last season, he improved more than not only any other prospect in our system, but probably more than any other prospect in our organization I have ever seen. But he still has a ways to go before he can prove to be able to not only maintain the quality of his play over the course of an 82 game season + playoffs. The Letang injury simply gave us a good excuse to give Maatta a longer look and a bit of experience by inserting him in for up to 9 games. Not to mention the Dumoulin injury....

Speaking of which: Dumoulin looked extremely impressive in both the rookie tournament and what he saw of the pre-season & training camp. Maatta may have higher long-term upside over Dumoulin, but Dumo is definitely ready to make the jump and play in the NHL right now, and to maintain that consistency over the course of a long season.



I don't see the Pens making a big deadline deal acquisition this year, as so many are saying. Last year, we gave away a TON of assets all at once to go all-in, and with 2nd round picks being some of the best currency at the trade deadline (and with us not having ours because of the Douglas Murray deal), I don't see us trading a 1st round pick or top prospect for an established player -- aka a move that would cause a big shift in our cap structure or necessitate somehow creating cap space.

If anything, I think what we will see is a straight-up hockey deal: one of our good young Dmen for another team's good young forward. Or if one of our young Dmen really steps up huge, such as Despres or Dumoulin, and renders a guy like Niskanen or Orpik tradeable, then you could see one of those impending UFA's moved...but again, that would be a straight up hockey deal, either for a younger forward or an older one at a similar cap hit (like a Setoguchi or Chris Stewart deal like we have talked about for a long time). I don't see the Pens doing anything to mortgage their future for a rental again this year, so I don't see the need to create cap space like everyone is talking about.

I was actually talking about Nisky for a pick at the trade deadline.

 

[jmelm]

I was actually talking about Nisky for a pick at the trade deadline.

And I didn't necessarily mean to imply otherwise. I just think that while the Pens won't actively trade picks/prospects for rentals, they won't do the inverse and dump impending UFAs either. I'm not saying I wouldn't do that if I were the GM, but all signs point towards the Penguins really wanting to have that extra depth on defense for a long playoff run and to guard against injuries in general; and because they seem to really value what Niskanen brings to this team specifically.

Niskanen is far from untouchable, but I still think he doesn't get moved unless it's in a player for player hockey deal. Maatta at 19 isn't going to change that, although Dumoulin or Despres could. But if I'm a betting man, I say the Pens hang on to Niskanen through till the end of the season and either try to trade his rights or simply let him walk as a UFA. Same things with Brooks, unless there's a pure hockey deal out there that's too good to pass up, AND we have guys like Despres and Dumoulin who are playing too well to keep down in WBS or play so well if they force the coaches' hands during a call up.

 

[KIRK]

And I didn't necessarily mean to imply otherwise. I just think that while the Pens won't actively trade picks/prospects for rentals, they won't do the inverse and dump impending UFAs either. I'm not saying I wouldn't do that if I were the GM, but all signs point towards the Penguins really wanting to have that extra depth on defense for a long playoff run and to guard against injuries in general; and because they seem to really value what Niskanen brings to this team specifically.

Niskanen is far from untouchable, but I still think he doesn't get moved unless it's in a player for player hockey deal. Maatta at 19 isn't going to change that, although Dumoulin or Despres could. But if I'm a betting man, I say the Pens hang on to Niskanen through till the end of the season and either try to trade his rights or simply let him walk as a UFA. Same things with Brooks, unless there's a pure hockey deal out there that's too good to pass up, AND we have guys like Despres and Dumoulin who are playing too well to keep down in WBS or play so well if they force the coaches' hands during a call up.

They have to do the same with Orpik, unless they plan to let Martin walk a year later OR only play one of Despres, Dumoulin, Maatta, maybe Harrington before the 2015-2016 season.

It's a simple numbers game, which is why some of us wondered IF the Pens might listen on Orpik and consider a deal IF it's an excellent hockey deal.

I used LA's trade of Jack Johnson as an example. If you can get a legit top 6 forward for Orpik who's young and under contract or under control for a few years, then do you make the deal and trust Despres (or Dumoulin) to be your Slava Voynov?