Speculation: Dreger on Buffalo's asking price for Myers

[Frk It]

Keep in mind a lot of this is going to be determined on what the pro scouts see.

If they see a guy who could come here and be a top pair guy and put up a lot of points, then Holland should have no problems offering Larkin +

But it they are seeing a lot of risk, or an inconsistent player, then they should keep the package low.

Just trying to think of all the factors, and there are a ton.

But I'm not sure our pro scouts are all that reliable to be honest... Quincey trade, Weiss signing, Legwand trade. Have to imagine these decisions were made in part based on their feedback.

 

[detredWINgs]

The 1st 2015 would obviously change the dynamic of the trade, but I think people are just assuming it is part of the deal because just Larkin and Kindl would be a huge win for the Wings for Myers.

Exactly. The only speculation that the 2015 1st is included is from the fans. And considering a 2015 1st is worth a lot more than Kindl, you'd think Dreger would've been more inclined to say "Larkin and their 1st this year."

As others have said, if that pick is included, holland did right in walking away. We need another mid-first round crack at drafting a top line center, especially in a draft that has a decent number of them outside the top 5-10.

On the other hand, if that pick isn't included, it's crazy to walk away. Even if Larkin pans out, at best he'd likely have the same impact on our team as Myers would and Myers would obviously contribute 3-5 years sooner. Kindl is a throw-in that we won't miss.

I'd probably even do it for Larkin, Kindl, and the 2016 first.

 

[TatarTangle]

As much as I'd love to have Myers on the team to shore up the defense, you can't trade Larkin. I don't think you guys are realizing how pitiful the center depth will be once Datsyuk is gone and Zetterberg inevitably declines.

 

[aFish]

Kindl's getting less than 15 minutes a night. He'd be having serious problems if he didn't look at least passable at that point.

His ice time is slightly skewed due to him not getting any special teams play (deservedly so). But at even strength, he's only about a minute and a half behind DDK. That averages out to maybe a shift per period less--not bad.

I get we all still have a bitter taste in our mouths from his horrible play last year, but he's been, as i said earlier, at least serviceable(albeit in a mostly sheltered role) so far this year.

I still cringe when pucks are dumped in behind him though, or if someone sends him a pass in his feet. lol

 

[detredWINgs]

As much as I'd love to have Myers on the team to shore up the defense, you can't trade Larkin. I don't think you guys are realizing how pitiful the center depth will be once Datsyuk is gone and Zetterberg inevitably declines.

But it's already going to be a problem that needs to be addressed through free agency. We've probably got 4 years before Larkin is ready for an NHL role and probably 5 before he can be a top six center. By that time, Datsyuk will be gone, Hank will be on his last legs, and Sheahan is not going to be able to carry the load. Weiss is irrelevant.

I'd much rather take my chances getting another top six center in free agency while having a locked up top 3 offensive RHD than I would white-knuckling it through the next few years hoping that Sproul and Larkin pan out.

As it stands, hitching the future of our center ice to ONE 18 year old 1st round center is almost as horrific as having no 18 year old 1st round center at all.

 

[Hammettf2b]

But it's already going to be a problem that needs to be addressed through free agency. We've probably got 4 years before Larkin is ready for an NHL role and probably 5 before he can be a top six center. By that time, Datsyuk will be gone, Hank will be on his last legs, and Sheahan is not going to be able to carry the load. Weiss is irrelevant.

I'd much rather take my chances getting another top six center in free agency while having a locked up top 3 offensive RHD than I would white-knuckling it through the next few years hoping that Sproul and Larkin pan out.

As it stands, hitching the future of our center ice to ONE 18 year old 1st round center is almost as horrific as having no 18 year old 1st round center at all.

This. I would rather just draft another center or try getting one via free agency or trade with the surplus of D that we would have.

 

[ZDH]

DON'T TRADE 1STS


Especially for Myers. Jesus Christ.

 

[drw02]

Exactly. The only speculation that the 2015 1st is included is from the fans. And considering a 2015 1st is worth a lot more than Kindl, you'd think Dreger would've been more inclined to say "Larkin and their 1st this year."

As others have said, if that pick is included, holland did right in walking away. We need another mid-first round crack at drafting a top line center, especially in a draft that has a decent number of them outside the top 5-10.

On the other hand, if that pick isn't included, it's crazy to walk away. Even if Larkin pans out, at best he'd likely have the same impact on our team as Myers would and Myers would obviously contribute 3-5 years sooner. Kindl is a throw-in that we won't miss.

I'd probably even do it for Larkin, Kindl, and the 2016 first.

Sure Myers helps now, but who's going to be playing center for this team in 2-3 years? Pav is gone, Z will probably move to the wing permanently by then, Weiss is a longshot to be anything useful, Helm is a UFA after next season and certainly not a legitimate top 6 center. We'll have Riley Sheahan and LGD. Can't assume Athanasiou, Holmstrom, Janmark, Ehn, Kadeykin, Turgeon will be ready by then or even pan out at all. Free Agent market is almost always devoid of good top 6 centers. Where do we get centers?

 

[TatarTangle]

But it's already going to be a problem that needs to be addressed through free agency. We've probably got 4 years before Larkin is ready for an NHL role and probably 5 before he can be a top six center. By that time, Datsyuk will be gone, Hank will be on his last legs, and Sheahan is not going to be able to carry the load. Weiss is irrelevant.

I'd much rather take my chances getting another top six center in free agency while having a locked up top 3 offensive RHD than I would white-knuckling it through the next few years hoping that Sproul and Larkin pan out.

As it stands, hitching the future of our center ice to ONE 18 year old 1st round center is almost as horrific as having no 18 year old 1st round center at all.

Holland is even worse in FA than he is at trading assets. Teams tend to hold on to their legitimate top 6 centers too.

I've had a couple friends and relatives who've seen Larkin play and told me he can flat-out play the game. Another poster here said his son or nephew played against Larkin and he told the poster that the kid plays every shift like it's his last. You can't trade a prospect that doesn't take a shift off and plays a position of need. JMHO.

 

[lilja4mvp*]

so you guys are basically conceding that this team won't compete for a cup for the rest of datsyuk's career, because they would actually have to give up assets.

good to know.

*puke*

 

[SoupNazi]

so you guys are basically conceding that this team won't compete for a cup for the rest of datsyuk's career, because we would actually have to give up assets.

good to know.

*puke*

Who's said they're opposed to giving up assets?

And for that matter, who's to say Myers gets us any closer to a Cup than we would be without him?

 

[drw02]

so you guys are basically conceding that this team won't compete for a cup for the rest of datsyuk's career, because they would actually have to give up assets.

good to know.

*puke*

Willing to give up assets, just not top 3 assets of Mantha, Mrazek, and Larkin. Any other prospects should be available as well as combinations of a 1st and 2nd round pick. Wing's really can't afford to budge on this imo.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Sure Myers helps now, but who's going to be playing center for this team in 2-3 years? Pav is gone, Z will probably move to the wing permanently by then, Weiss is a longshot to be anything useful, Helm is a UFA after next season and certainly not a legitimate top 6 center. We'll have Riley Sheahan and LGD. Can't assume Athanasiou, Holmstrom, Janmark, Ehn, Kadeykin, Turgeon will be ready by then or even pan out at all. Free Agent market is almost always devoid of good top 6 centers. Where do we get centers?

Cant be sure Larkin will either. And he wont even be ready in 2-3 years. 2-3 years in college then 1-2 in GR. Then at least 1 getting feet wet

 

[drw02]

Cant be sure Larkin will either. And he wont even be ready in 2-3 years. 2-3 years in college then 1-2 in GR. Then at least 1 getting feet wet

He's our best bet to pan out and not surprisingly our most sought after center spect. And he prolly won't be spending a full year in GR let alone two. I'm thinking 2 years at UM, turns pro and soon finds himself in the Wings lineup. Again, who else is going to be playing center for this team in 2-3 years?

 

[Winger98]

Keep in mind a lot of this is going to be determined on what the pro scouts see.

If they see a guy who could come here and be a top pair guy and put up a lot of points, then Holland should have no problems offering Larkin +

But it they are seeing a lot of risk, or an inconsistent player, then they should keep the package low.

Just trying to think of all the factors, and there are a ton.

But I'm not sure our pro scouts are all that reliable to be honest... Quincey trade, Weiss signing, Legwand trade. Have to imagine these decisions were made in part based on their feedback.

I'm not sure I hold Legwand and Weiss against the scouts. Legwand looked a lot as advertised until Babcock went all Babcock and made him a 4th line wing. And Weiss just seemed to flat out lie about his health in camp.

His ice time is slightly skewed due to him not getting any special teams play (deservedly so). But at even strength, he's only about a minute and a half behind DDK. That averages out to maybe a shift per period less--not bad.

I get we all still have a bitter taste in our mouths from his horrible play last year, but he's been, as i said earlier, at least serviceable(albeit in a mostly sheltered role) so far this year.

I still cringe when pucks are dumped in behind him though, or if someone sends him a pass in his feet. lol

He's so close to Dekeyser because his ESIT is skewed by his playing a lot of special teams, though. The only other D who doesn't get a big chunk of special teams play is Smith, and he gets 18 mins a night at ES.

And this isn't talking about Kindl's lack of defensive zone starts.

I applaud Babcock for putting Kindl into a position to look good this year, hopefully it means we can get something decent back in a trade.

Sure Myers helps now, but who's going to be playing center for this team in 2-3 years? Pav is gone, Z will probably move to the wing permanently by then, Weiss is a longshot to be anything useful, Helm is a UFA after next season and certainly not a legitimate top 6 center. We'll have Riley Sheahan and LGD. Can't assume Athanasiou, Holmstrom, Janmark, Ehn, Kadeykin, Turgeon will be ready by then or even pan out at all. Free Agent market is almost always devoid of good top 6 centers. Where do we get centers?

Myers can help that now in allowing us to deal some other D for a center. Assuming they aren't involved in a Myers trade, a guy like Dekeyser or Smith would be available after bringing Myers in. It also makes XO, Marchenko, etc. much more available, though for their trade value to be decent we should probably play them in Detroit at some point.

I would actually like our chances of dealing for a decent center some other team is frustrated with (or who has demanded a trade) than our drafting one.

Who's said they're opposed to giving up assets?

And for that matter, who's to say Myers gets us any closer to a Cup than we would be without him?

Well, I think we'd be closer to a cup. A big, minute eating, all around D who is right handed...it gives us a lot of what we don't have right now.

 

[Chance on Chance]

He's our best bet to pan out and not surprisingly our most sought after center spect. And he prolly won't be spending a full year in GR let alone two. I'm thinking 2 years at UM, turns pro and soon finds himself in the Wings lineup. Again, who else is going to be playing center for this team in 2-3 years?

I doubt he'll be on the team at 20 and if he is he wont be a 50 point C. Who knows who will be our C in 2-3 years but right now thats the window we have to win with dats and Z. I dont really think Myers is the answer or missing piece but at some point you gotta go for it.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'm not sure I hold Legwand and Weiss against the scouts. And Weiss just seemed to flat out lie about his health in camp.

weiss has history of doing that before. playing injured and hurting his team. like the lockout year when he played with one arm for almost 20 games.

 

[drw02]

Myers can help that now in allowing us to deal some other D for a center. Assuming they aren't involved in a Myers trade, a guy like Dekeyser or Smith would be available after bringing Myers in. It also makes XO, Marchenko, etc. much more available, though for their trade value to be decent we should probably play them in Detroit at some point.

I would actually like our chances of dealing for a decent center some other team is frustrated with (or who has demanded a trade) than our drafting one.

I disagree Myers makes Dekeyser or Smith available, that is if you're still trying to win, or else why are we trading for Myers? Inserting Myers and taking out Smith/Dekeyser is marginal improvement imo. We want Myers taking Kindl's spot on the roster. And even if Smith/DDK did become available we don't know they would be desired by another team in return for one of their good centers.... nor can we assume a good center will eventually demand a trade to open an avenue for us to acquire him.

Just how big of an impact would you expect Myers to have? He's a solid player and still has room to grow but he's not some dominate force.

 

[tfong]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=553408

If the Erik Johnson trade is any indicator, I'd imagine it looks something like...
(EJ, Mclement, 1st vs Shatternik, Stewart, 2nd)

Myers, Mitchell, vs Kindl, Larkin, 2nd

Given that Shatternick had way more upside than Kindle when he was traded, Wings add the pick and the Sabres don't.

 

[SirloinUB]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=553408

If the Erik Johnson trade is any indicator, I'd imagine it looks something like...
(EJ, Mclement, 1st vs Shatternik, Stewart, 2nd)

Myers, Mitchell, vs Kindl, Larkin, 2nd

Given that Shatternick had way more upside than Kindle when he was traded, Wings add the pick and the Sabres don't.

I would get behind this

 

[drw02]

I doubt he'll be on the team at 20 and if he is he wont be a 50 point C. Who knows who will be our C in 2-3 years but right now thats the window we have to win with dats and Z. I dont really think Myers is the answer or missing piece but at some point you gotta go for it.

He probably won't start the season with the Wings as a 20 year old but if he plays up to his potential in GR he'll likely find himself on the Wings roster soon imo. He's got good size so he won't need the extra time to gain strength like some of the smaller prospects like Tatar, Nyquist, Pulky have. Wings are slowly but surely coming around to playing their top young players earlier than they'd like (Jurco, Ouellet in playoffs, Mantha soon), I don't see that trend really changing in the next few years.

 

[BF3]

Well, I think we'd be closer to a cup. A big, minute eating, all around D who is right handed...it gives us a lot of what we don't have right now.

Considering we have been looking for one for about, I don't know, 3 years...

 

[Claypool]

so you guys are basically conceding that this team won't compete for a cup for the rest of datsyuk's career, because they would actually have to give up assets.

good to know.

*puke*

This team can't compete for a Cup because Datsyuk is rarely healthy anymore. He put playing for team Russia last season in the Olmypics ahead of Detroit. No sense on selling the farm just for him. The Wings have to look forward at this point. Rolling the dice on a player who could go down at any point from any minor collision is a bad idea.

I'm also no about trading the first round pick this year. Certainly not in this draft class. You never know what could happen.

 

[Invictus12]

Why is it that everyone seems to assume that 2015 is a sure-fire hit no matter who you pick in the draft? With all due respect, I can remember a single year that wasn't touted as 'deep' a year prior on here. I don't follow AHL and other leagues... That said, Myers is what, 24? He's a very good defenseman. He's full time NHL. Quite frankly, I think he could very well fix our powerplay because part of the problem, one of the gus on point, always has to make that extra twist which kills valuable time. We can only wish that the first rounder ends up as good as him so, why is everyone against giving up a first for a young player that addresses our need right now and is young??? I really don't get it. The mystery box syndrome?

 

[Winger98]

weiss has history of doing that before. playing injured and hurting his team. like the lockout year when he played with one arm for almost 20 games.

Guys playing with injuries isn't exactly rare, though. How many times have we had Datsyuk playing on one leg and not being half as effective as normal? Or Z with a bad back? Or Cleary with literally nothing usable left to drag onto the ice?

If Weiss was injured before we signed him, I'd put it on the scouts/docs. Or if I thought we grossly misjudged his ability to center the second line. Playing hurt is abit of an NHL tradition, though.

I disagree Myers makes Dekeyser or Smith available, that is if you're still trying to win, or else why are we trading for Myers? Inserting Myers and taking out Smith/Dekeyser is marginal improvement imo. We want Myers taking Kindl's spot on the roster. And even if Smith/DDK did become available we don't know they would be desired by another team in return for one of their good centers.... nor can we assume a good center will eventually demand a trade to open an avenue for us to acquire him.

Just how big of an impact would you expect Myers to have? He's a solid player and still has room to grow but he's not some dominate force.

Myers steps in as, at least, our second best D. He could immediately eat a chunk of PK and PP time, he adds some handedness balance, and has the ability to routinely put up 30+ points. That is a massive impact on our blueline where we have one guy we really trust for more than 23 minutes on any given night and who we can have faith in putting up 30+ points.

As for trading for a center, why did Boston move Seguin (and Thornton before him)? Phoenix moved Turris. Spezza wanted out of Ottawa. This summer pretty much every forward not named Couture was rumored to be available out of SJ, and there seemed to be some doubt swirling around Vancouver over the direction of their franchise - wouldn't be hugely surprising to see the Sedins moved if they ever wanted to really clean house.

We haven't been able to make a move through a trade for whatever reason, doesn't mean there aren't guys out there or that we couldn't make a move for them later on.