GDT: Draft Day

[Pavels Dog]

Actually they added a lot of character guys who are categorized as safe. Literally they added what they already have: Bottom 6/pairing players who if they make the NHL will likely only have niche impacts. The biggest problem with this strategy is it is one of team that thinks its about to contend, not a team that is laughably untalented.

Having character doesn't mean you don't have potential. In fact guys with strong work ethics and a lot of drive are exactly the type of prospects that might tap into some previously unseen potential down the road.

Listening to Tyler Wright talk about the picks I don't get the feeling they drafted these guys because they think we're about to contend or because they're only "safe".
Where did you get that idea?

 

[ShanahanMan]

Feel free to go listen to Tyler Wright talk about our draft.

https://soundcloud.com/officialredw...uthority-episode-4-red-wings-2017-draft-picks

Will save everyone the trouble. Uses the word "character" about 50 times to describe why they picked him. Pretty much the bulk of it.

I'm sure Miller and Glendenning have great character too. Don't understand why they weren't picked in the first round.

 

[Dotter]

Honest question, how can people grade and condemn Ken Holland about today's draft when they haven't seen or heard of most of these players?

The fact they drafted kids not in the "circle" actually gives me hope. Remember nobody knew of Datsyuk when he was drafted. There might be some interesting pieces here.

 

[cjm502]

Honest question, how can people grade and condemn Ken Holland about today's draft when they haven't seen or heard of most of these players?

The fact they drafted kids not in the "circle" actually gives me hope. Remember nobody knew of Datsyuk when he was drafted. There might be some interesting pieces here.

The Dats situation is a bit different then what goes on today, it's not like Detroit was the only team to see these guys play before the draft.

 

[SimplySolace]

Feel free to go listen to Tyler Wright talk about our draft.

https://soundcloud.com/officialredw...uthority-episode-4-red-wings-2017-draft-picks

* Talks about obviously prioritizing character and size this draft.

* Rasmussen (C) - Thinks he hits the top of the charts for character. Mentions being captain for Tri City at 18 is "unheard of". Good skater, size/wingspan/reach, if he's not producing offensively he's still hard to play against.

* Lindstrom (D) - Late riser. Said 4 teams came up to them after drafting him and told them they picked a good player & thought they could get him shortly after we picked. "His hockey sense, his skill set, his skating ability sets himself apart from everybody". Plays very relaxed, very patient 2 way game, good feet, good size, thinks he has more offense than he's shown, playing against men @ 18.

* Katkonsalo (D) - Wright says he was surprised he was there in the 3rd round. Similar to Lindstrom: good size, good mobility, good hockey sense. Going to Boston University next year. Reminds him of Saarijarvi offensively - thinks he'll produce more outside of USHL. Says he's really excited they grabbed him.

* Zablocki (C) - Says feelings on him were split in this draft: either you really liked him or didn't really want to draft him. Was one of their 3rd round targets but had to take Katkonsalo ahead of him. Comparison to the Bertuzzi draft - talking about how we were criticized and how people might say they could've got him later but they wanted him. Pain in the ass to play against if he's not scoring and they want to be a team like that going forward.

* Zach Gallant (C) - Again wanted to get bigger down the middle, hard to play against, good character. Went whole year without a goal then rebounded this year with 20 goals. Thinks he has a lot of skill and is just scratching the surface.

* Keith Petruzzelli (G) - they had a size requirement for a goalie. Needs a lot of work physically, has 4 years of college to work on it. Got to work with Jeff Salajko and he told Wright that he's "a good learner, a listener, a competitor, he's got a lot of tools, need to dial him in technically". Believes can't teach size and compete, but can teach technical aspects of their game. Brings up that he is familiar with Coreau.

* Malte Setkov (D) - Very good mobility/skater, just starting coming up into his own, size was a huge factor (6' 6" / 200lbs). Thinks he's just entering the tip of the iceberg and he continually got better and better. He commutes between Denmark into Malmo, Sweden - 2 hour drive daily. Another good character, committed kid. Thought he wouldn't be there in the 5th.

* Cole Fraser (D) - Thinks they will need to develop a bit of the skill set, but he's physical and "very, very hard hitting". Fit the theme of good size, good competitiveness, loves to play physical and make opponent's lives miserable. His two favorite D to watch: Weber and Kronwall.

* Reilly Webb (D) - A little bit of an unknown, had some injuries/surgery. Good size, good mobility, can move the puck, but a bit of the unknown. Worth the risk. Limited viewings.

* Jack Adams (RW) - Been through the draft a year or two already. Knock on him is his skating. See a lot of similarities to Mark Stone as far as skating abilities.

* Brady Gilmour (C) - Brings of the relationship with Saginaw - Osgood being there often and Hronek going there. Said the kid kept continuing to work, character through the rough, could be the captain of Saginaw someday. Created a lot of opportunities himself.

* Talks about how internally they're changing their process. They're trying to speed up the process, no more over-ripening. Don't have the luxury of the Lidstroms and Datsyuks blocking them. They want to continue the culture that took so long to build up. "Once you lose that culture, it's virtually impossible to get back, it takes decades" (eh). Don't want to put them in a position to fail, but want to speed up the process. Looking at all possible avenues on how to speed it up - nutritionist/sports psychologist/skating/skills/flexibility/strength/living on your own/coming into detroit and training for the summer. Gotta let them fail sometime, but need to pick them up quick.

* Thinks the challenge of player development is the player themselves. You can give them every resource possible, but they have to be able to do it on their own. That's where the character comes into it. Wants the "fight back" mentality and uses a 7 game series as an example. They want the kids that buy into the program, "you're either with us or you're not. And if you're not gonna be with us we'll move on to someone that's going to be" (Mrazek anyone?).

 

[Go Wings]

* Talks about obviously prioritizing character and size this draft.

* Rasmussen (C) - Thinks he hits the top of the charts for character. Mentions being captain for Tri City at 18 is "unheard of". Good skater, size/wingspan/reach, if he's not producing offensively he's still hard to play against.

* Lindstrom (D) - Late riser. Said 4 teams came up to them after drafting him and told them they picked a good player & thought they could get him shortly after we picked. "His hockey sense, his skill set, his skating ability sets himself apart from everybody". Plays very relaxed, very patient 2 way game, good feet, good size, thinks he has more offense than he's shown, playing against men @ 18.

* Katkonsalo (D) - Wright says he was surprised he was there in the 3rd round. Similar to Lindstrom: good size, good mobility, good hockey sense. Going to Boston University next year. Reminds him of Saarijarvi offensively - thinks he'll produce more outside of USHL. Says he's really excited they grabbed him.

* Zablocki (C) - Says feelings on him were split in this draft: either you really liked him or didn't really want to draft him. Was one of their 3rd round targets but had to take Katkonsalo ahead of him. Comparison to the Bertuzzi draft - talking about how we were criticized and how people might say they could've got him later but they wanted him. Pain in the ass to play against if he's not scoring and they want to be a team like that going forward.

* Zach Gallant (C) - Again wanted to get bigger down the middle, hard to play against, good character. Went whole year without a goal then rebounded this year with 20 goals. Thinks he has a lot of skill and is just scratching the surface.

* Keith Petruzzelli (G) - they had a size requirement for a goalie. Needs a lot of work physically, has 4 years of college to work on it. Got to work with Jeff Salajko and he told Wright that he's "a good learner, a listener, a competitor, he's got a lot of tools, need to dial him in technically". Believes can't teach size and compete, but can teach technical aspects of their game. Brings up that he is familiar with Coreau.

* Malte Setkov (D) - Very good mobility/skater, just starting coming up into his own, size was a huge factor (6' 6" / 200lbs). Thinks he's just entering the tip of the iceberg and he continually got better and better. He commutes between Denmark into Malmo, Sweden - 2 hour drive daily. Another good character, committed kid. Thought he wouldn't be there in the 5th.

* Cole Fraser (D) - Thinks they will need to develop a bit of the skill set, but he's physical and "very, very hard hitting". Fit the theme of good size, good competitiveness, loves to play physical and make opponent's lives miserable. His two favorite D to watch: Weber and Kronwall.

* Reilly Webb (D) - A little bit of an unknown, had some injuries/surgery. Good size, good mobility, can move the puck, but a bit of the unknown. Worth the risk. Limited viewings.

* Jack Adams (RW) - Been through the draft a year or two already. Knock on him is his skating. See a lot of similarities to Mark Stone as far as skating abilities.

* Brady Gilmour (C) - Brings of the relationship with Saginaw - Osgood being there often and Hronek going there. Said the kid kept continuing to work, character through the rough, could be the captain of Saginaw someday. Created a lot of opportunities himself.

* Talks about how internally they're changing their process. They're trying to speed up the process, no more over-ripening. Don't have the luxury of the Lidstroms and Datsyuks blocking them. They want to continue the culture that took so long to build up. "Once you lose that culture, it's virtually impossible to get back, it takes decades" (eh). Don't want to put them in a position to fail, but want to speed up the process. Looking at all possible avenues on how to speed it up - nutritionist/sports psychologist/skating/skills/flexibility/strength/living on your own/coming into detroit and training for the summer. Gotta let them fail sometime, but need to pick them up quick.

* Thinks the challenge of player development is the player themselves. You can give them every resource possible, but they have to be able to do it on their own. That's where the character comes into it. Wants the "fight back" mentality and uses a 7 game series as an example. They want the kids that buy into the program, "you're either with us or you're not. And if you're not gonna be with us we'll move on to someone that's going to be" (Mrazek anyone?).

He needs go along with Holland and Blashill. It isnt 1990 size and character is not what you should be focusing on in this NHL. No one is going to win a cup with size and character in this day in age.

 

[Shaman464]

Having character doesn't mean you don't have potential. In fact guys with strong work ethics and a lot of drive are exactly the type of prospects that might tap into some previously unseen potential down the road.

Listening to Tyler Wright talk about the picks I don't get the feeling they drafted these guys because they think we're about to contend or because they're only "safe".
Where did you get that idea?

Simply does a good write up of the interview, but the whole 'wants to speed up the process but don't want to put them in the position to fail' stuff reeked of 'we need talent asap, but don't want to have to work on developing it'. They want players who can make the NHL right now. That tells me they aren't committed at all to actually rebuilding, but they want to retool and try to make the playoffs again.

As for character guys. Not sure how much time you spent around hockey, but when I played the word character was used when the person did a lot of good things but wasn't one that could ever put it all together. Its what you talk about when you have nothing else to talk about. It's like one step down from intangibles. The fact every person from the org that has talked about this kid leads off with this says that the other tools he has aren't good enough to lead the conversation with. Players like Larkin are supposed to have 'off the chart' character too, but when he was drafted no one lead the conversation with it, why? Because he was fast, because he had hands, because because because. Svech also seems to have a lot of character (works harder than anyone/big on supporting his family/helping his brother come over, etc), but people don't lead off with that, they talk about him being tough to play against, they talk about his nose for going to the hard areas, they talk about the fact he has soft hands and a lot of smarts. When the FIRST thing you have to say about a top ten pick is about something like character or size, then that's a massive red flag.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

The Ducks would have never beaten the Hawks or Iceland without high character players.

 

[lilidk]

everybody knew this draft going to be not deep at all . I don't think it is bad idea go after players with character .

 

[Ennui]

It's a bit bizarre, but the recent drafting trends of the Wings lean toward a team identity that I would immediately associate with teams like Anaheim, San Jose, Boston... a bevy of big, mean, gritty players supporting an upper core of speedy, skilled players. If these players pan out, we may not be the fastest or the most pretty team, but we will not be a match up that other teams look forward to, especially if we get a little lottery luck in next year's draft.

 

[Shaman464]

It's a bit bizarre, but the recent drafting trends of the Wings lean toward a team identity that I would immediately associate with teams like Anaheim, San Jose, Boston... a bevy of big, mean, gritty players supporting an upper core of speedy, skilled players. If these players pan out, we may not be the fastest or the most pretty team, but we will not be a match up that other teams look forward to, especially if we get a little lottery luck in next year's draft.

The issue is that those teams aren't winning many championships lately because teams have adjusted to the big team strategy by getting faster and more skilled.

The last couple drafts have been a clear sign of something that should worry everyone: They are no longer the team that sets the trends, they are now the team that chases them.

 

[Winger98]

We dominated as a puck possssion team with skill up and down the lineup. Could care less how big and nasty we are, we need to get back to that.

Penguins won back to back being soft as ****.

Our first two cup teams were some nasty, physical teams, though. The three years or so with Babcock where we were either in the WCF or SCF, those teams were surprisingly physical for what you saw on paper. There was clearly tremendous skill there, too. Those wings teams were great because of the HoFers sprinkled throughout the club and the amount of talent they brought to the game. They weren't soft by any stretch, though.

Going back and putting together a team that will slow the play down a bit, play the puck into the corners, and then beat the hell out of you for 60 minutes...I'm not against that, especially if we can pair some of these big forwards up with a mobile, puck smart D that looks possible if guys like Hronek, Saarijarvi, Cholo, and Hicketts pan out. And if we hit on Dahlin next year.

 

[jkutswings]

Honest question, how can people grade and condemn Ken Holland about today's draft when they haven't seen or heard of most of these players?

The fact they drafted kids not in the "circle" actually gives me hope. Remember nobody knew of Datsyuk when he was drafted. There might be some interesting pieces here.

Because prospects tend to pan out to varying degrees, but tend not to change the skill set that got them to the draft, once they're in the NHL.

For example, Rasmussen is known for his net front presence. You can hope that a he becomes an OUTSTANDING net front presence, instead of plateauing as just a good one, but the odds of that same kid also developing high-end offensive creativity, or elite puckhandling, or superb vision, or any other top notch skill set that this team desperately needs, just isn't a realistic expectation.

Detroit can collect another hundred marvelous depth players and secondary pieces. But they're not going anywhere meaningful until they find some real studs. Which are guys with sky-high ceilings. Which is not the approach the Wings used in this draft; instead, they went with Boy Scouts with the highest floor and lower risk of busting.

 

[Winger98]

Honest question, how can people grade and condemn Ken Holland about today's draft when they haven't seen or heard of most of these players?

The fact they drafted kids not in the "circle" actually gives me hope. Remember nobody knew of Datsyuk when he was drafted. There might be some interesting pieces here.

There might be. Rasmussen might end up being an interesting piece. I think folks look at the high end part of the Wings right now, and they can see it aging. They can see it slipping. Meanwhile, the Wings have the highest pick they've had in ages. Literally in the lifetimes of a number of their fans. And they took a guy who doesn't really flash the upside that is so quickly aging and needing replaced (or which has out and out retired and left a sucking chest wound in our blue line). And this makes it hard to give them the benefit of the doubt with the rest of the picks.

And this is without delving into the literal likelihood of any of these guys being NHLers. All of us know the likelihood is small.

 

[Frk It]

Our first two cup teams were some nasty, physical teams, though. The three years or so with Babcock where we were either in the WCF or SCF, those teams were surprisingly physical for what you saw on paper. There was clearly tremendous skill there, too. Those wings teams were great because of the HoFers sprinkled throughout the club and the amount of talent they brought to the game. They weren't soft by any stretch, though.

Pre-cap teams were great when you could have as much skill and toughness as you could afford. Teams are constructed differently now.

 

[Winger98]

Pre-cap teams were great when you could have as much skill and toughness as you could afford. Teams are constructed differently now.

And teams will be constructed differently five years from now. The cap age has been around since 2005 and we've seen a handful of different styles come and go.

 

[Ennui]

I know it's greedy of me and unrealistic, but I'd love it if the Wings would try to leverage a roster player or two that is part of the current core, i.e. Green, for a 2018 1st round pick without any lottery protection; while it would be preferable to try and find a team willing to pony up a first round pick that is likely to be in draft lottery territory, there could always be a surprise faller, i.e. Philadelphia.

As slim a possibility as it would be, I would love to somehow draft Dahlin and Svech.


A man can dream...

 

[Mijatovic]

LOL. You realise there is more to these playeres than just size and character. All the talent in the world dont mean much if your not a hard worker. You think McDavid became generational talent because of some inane ability or because hard practice and work. Some kids want it and some kids dont.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

Honest question, how can people grade and condemn Ken Holland about today's draft when they haven't seen or heard of most of these players?

The fact they drafted kids not in the "circle" actually gives me hope. Remember nobody knew of Datsyuk when he was drafted. There might be some interesting pieces here.

I hated the Rasmussen pick at the time and I hate it even more now. Rasmussen was picked ahead of other, more skilled players, not because the Wings felt he had the highest upside but because of his character and intangibles. Had the Wings come out and said they felt he was BPA I'd be okay with taking him over Vilardi, Necas, or Suzuki. Hell, I'd have been okay if they took Kostin at 9 because it means they felt he was worth the gamble and had big time upside. Maybe the Wings get lucky and they have uncovered some gems but how are our current "character" based picks doing... the answer is not well. The last team to prioritize character were the Avs from 2010-2014, out of that period they came away with just 3 NHL players, 2 of which were top 3 picks.

As well, just because we may not know the players does not mean we are not able to criticize the picks. There have been numerous "studies" done into the correlation of CHL defenceman and how their point per game ratio predicts their future. Basically, those that score at a lower rate have a far, far, far higher chance of busting and never making it to the NHL. This is from 2013 but it is still relevant today http://thats-offside.blogspot.ca/2013/06/defense-defensemen-and-draft.html. The Wings essential punted their 5th & second 6th round pick at a time when we need a chance of accumulating any talent we can get.

I actually liked the Gustav Lindstrom, Kasper Kotkansalo, Keith Petruzzelli, and Malte Setkov picks. Those players all have legitimate upside to be to be 2nd pairing defenceman or a starting goalie. What I don't get or understand is why we adopted the strategy of drafting role players when we don't have the tent pole players yet. I'm willing to re-evaluate the draft in 2 or 3 years time and hopefully I'll be eating a big plate of crow but as of now this was an awful draft.

Thinks the challenge of player development is the player themselves. You can give them every resource possible, but they have to be able to do it on their own. That's where the character comes into it. Wants the "fight back" mentality and uses a 7 game series as an example. They want the kids that buy into the program, "you're either with us or you're not. And if you're not gonna be with us we'll move on to someone that's going to be" (Mrazek anyone?).

God, that last bit is a scary thought. If you don't play the game the Red Wings way than you'll be moved to another team. Character should be a valued part of any prospects make up but it should never be valued over skill or hockey IQ. Even the most headcase of players are able to moved for value so long as they're still producing (examples being Evander Kane, Jagr, Healty, etc.)

 

[ScottyBowman]

Honest question, how can people grade and condemn Ken Holland about today's draft when they haven't seen or heard of most of these players?

The fact they drafted kids not in the "circle" actually gives me hope. Remember nobody knew of Datsyuk when he was drafted. There might be some interesting pieces here.

Agreed. It's like this in the football draft and then the draft grades come out the next day and the fans go bonkers. We don't know these guys and I'm glad the Wings are going in a different direction than drafting high skilled midgets who get pushed around like rag dolls in the playoffs.

 

[ricky0034]

Will save everyone the trouble. Uses the word "character" about 50 times to describe why they picked him. Pretty much the bulk of it.

I'm sure Miller and Glendenning have great character too. Don't understand why they weren't picked in the first round.

yeah definitely not encouraging to hear the reasoning for a top 10 pick and it almost exclusively boiling down to "character"

was interesting hearing about the other picks though,did make me feel better about a couple of those

 

[Winger98]

I'm sure Glendening works his butt off. Still a 4th line forward.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

LOL. You realise there is more to these playeres than just size and character. All the talent in the world dont mean much if your not a hard worker. You think McDavid became generational talent because of some inane ability or because hard practice and work. Some kids want it and some kids dont.

Depends. Peyton manning ate pizzas while playing and other food bad for your body if your a pro athlete anyway. And he is arguably the second best qb of all time.

If your really good you have to work less. Doesn't mean you don't have 2. Mcdavid would probably be a Hof still probably not top 5 like his potential says

 

[Red Stanley]

If we eventually end up with a team that is big and tough to play against, scores a bunch of garbage goals and grinds out lots of wins, I won't be one bit upset.

 

[Bench]

If we eventually end up with a team that is big and tough to play against, scores a bunch of garbage goals and grinds out lots of wins, I won't be one bit upset.

That was the Stars philosophy after their fall from the playoffs. Not even kidding the management used the phrase "tough to play against" to describe their goal.

Long story short the Stars didn't sniff the playoffs again until they brought in high level skill players like Seguin and Spezza.

Teams that "grind out wins" don't compete for anything but a playoff spot at best.