Speculation: Dougie Hamilton Negotiations (Pt. 2)

[Borsig]

It's not being cheap exactly -- if we pay both Dougie and Ned, we're solidly $4M over what we might have projected for those guys a couple of years ago, and that's cap suicide -- but I do wonder how much the TDA situation played into their thinking. That was a unique X-factor that couldn't have been predicted, and gave them a relatively easy-out financially speaking. If TDA isn't on the market for almost free, maybe there's a bit more sense of panic around Dougie. A lot of GMs would have given in to that panic regardless, but this front office doesn't seem to have a pulse when it comes to saying "no".

Ned, I think he was gone as soon as he signaled a desire for arbitration. I fully believe he asked for $5M because that sets an arbitration bar that's likely to land around $3M-4M. One thing we could not afford to do, was let that process play out and have him awarded something on the high end around $4M-$5M. With that possibility on the table, it was a matter of finding a trade partner.

yet he signed for 3 mil?

 

[tarheelhockey]

yet he signed for 3 mil?

Because he didn't go to arbitration. The Wings put money on the table and he took it.

 

[Borsig]

Because he didn't go to arbitration. The Wings put money on the table and he took it.

And we didnt.

Thats my point.

 

[Lempo]

It shouldn't effect of the expected outcome of the Arbitration, but I'm pretty positive that in real life Red Wings would have had much easier time to say in the hearing that Ned hasn't really shown anything yet than Canes would have.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

If it were a one-off I’d agree. But this has become a conspicuous thing where Erik Cole kneecaps reputations of former players. He doesn’t have anything meaningful to say for years, then five minutes after a guy stops being Canes property over a money decision he’s on the next radio show with hot takes about the guy’s character?

That looks a lot less like an “honest assessment” than the organization doing a really trashy thing to control a media narrative. And it has an extremely strong smack of the Karmanos/Rutherford culture wherein Erik Cole learned exactly how to get high-level shitty over contracts.

Unless there were other instances, this is a two-off. I don’t think it’s as much of a habit as some make it out to be.

I know Adam and Cole are friends, and I believe he appears on his show more often than the two times (again, that I know of) he’s said some things about a former player.

 

[tarheelhockey]

And we didnt.

Thats my point.

Then what was the point of the question above?

We know they didn't want to sign him for $3M because the front office all but had a press conference to announce that fact.

Ned was shooting for that type of number, hence posturing toward $5M when the Canes were thinking more like $1.5M -- that sets up arbitration to land in the middle. All of that was a non-starter for an org that doesn't rate Ned as a bona fide #1. But in a league where Carter Hart signs for $4M after a season where he posted a .877, there was also the possibility of an award that would have made Ned completely immovable by trade. So the minute he made it clear that he was going to arbitration, the negotiation was over. Neither side was particularly in the wrong there... Ned simply played his way out of our cap structure. Good for him, he got paid, which is the point of being a pro goalie.

 

[Elsker]

Sorry for not posting this earlier (been really busy at work). But for some insight into the Dougie Hamilton contract negotiations suggest listening to the Two Man Advantage (Scott Burnside and Pierre LeBrun) version of the multi-headed The Athletic Hockey Show podcast dated July 29 featuring an interview with Dougie's agent, J.P. Barry. Dougie's contract discussion begins around the 26:30 mark.

Barry kind of glosses over some of the details, but sounds like New Jersey was targeted early as "we identified early on that they had a need" and he further notes "turned out they were interested". So sounds like initial contact might even have been from the agent to the team.

When asked if it helped having all that time before the deadline to talk with teams he replied "no, not really" and further notes that Carolina was "frustrated" by it coming down to the end before the deal came together. Primary reason for the delay, per Barry, was waiting for the market price to be set, which the Seth Jones deal (represented by his partner, Pat) established.

Once they then had the basic 7 x $9M target deal set, then the rest of the time went into negotiating the details of the contract so it wasn't front-loaded, which turned out to match the team's desires, per Barry. Lots of back and forth about how the signing bonuses vs. salary for each year to match league guidelines for how such contracts must be structured. But seems negotiations were with one team only. Sort of match the market price guys and he's yours.

In fact, when asked if his phone rang from other teams while those details were being worked out he said "not really". And also added that once he had the basics of a deal with a team he didn't really do that.

So, sounds like to me that New Jersey was identified early by the player/agent, they were interested, a basic contract framework was established ("We'll pay list price"), list price was established by the Seth Jones contract, and the cash flow was then negotiated over a period of a couple of days.

Doesn't sound like it was shopped around. Doesn't sound like the Canes were in it at all. Doesn't sound like any other team was really in on it at all. And, in fact, we heard nothing about any other team really being interested and/or the agent playing off New Jersey's interest against any other org, including the Canes.

But give it a listen and see what you think. Kind of explains a lot if this is indeed the way it went down.

The Athletic Hockey Show podcast (July 29, 2021)

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The Canes *were* offering a fair offer with term. But "fair" in this case incorporates the bad as well as the good. Dougie is a player that contributes a lot, but also has major flaws that aren't just figments of imagination. There are a lot of warts to his game. New Jersey signed him to a contract that flat out ignored all the warts in his game.

I'm as close to a hard Dougie critic as you'll actually find around here, and I still wanted to keep him- but at a value close to what the Canes ultimately were offering. I think he's a good and useful player. But I'm not paying him 9 f***ing million dollars a year. That is utterly insane and we were right not to even try to come close to it.

"Fair" is open to interpretation.

Fair as in Canes were willing to pay this much for what he brings and; Fair, as in "fair market value" are two different things.

My comment about them not really wanting him was along the lines that pretty much everyone expected that the market would most certainly pay much more than the Canes were offering, so if that's their offer, they had to know their chances of re-signing him were pretty slim. They clearly knew that he would get more on the open market (they told him to go find out), so were ok with letting him walk. That's what I mean. Of course, if he'd stay at a lower value, they'd take him, but the chances of that weren't great.

I liken it to this. In this housing market, a home that went for $250K a year ago might be listed for $300K now. You think a fair offer for that house is $250K and the market is just nuts right now. Offering $250K for the house means you really didn't want the house that badly. Sure, if you got it, it would be great, but the chances of getting it are pretty non-existent.

I agree with you though that no way I'd give Dougie that contract if I was Carolina and that Deal is above what I expected the "market value to be by at least $1M / year". I'd have had a tough time even at $8M/year for 7-8 years, I like the player, but as you said, he has some warts and that's not a contract I'd give him with the Canes Cap structure. Like Lempo said, the going rate and what the Canes could allocate to him are two different things.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sorry for not posting this earlier (been really busy at work). But for some insight into the Dougie Hamilton contract negotiations suggest listening to the Two Man Advantage (Scott Burnside and Pierre LeBrun) version of the multi-headed The Athletic Hockey Show podcast dated July 29 featuring an interview with Dougie's agent, J.P. Barry. Dougie's contract discussion begins around the 26:30 mark.

Barry kind of glosses over some of the details, but sounds like New Jersey was targeted early as "we identified early on that they had a need" and he further notes "turned out they were interested". So sounds like initial contact might even have been from the agent to the team.

When asked if it helped having all that time before the deadline to talk with teams he replied "no, not really" and further notes that Carolina was "frustrated" by it coming down to the end before the deal came together. Primary reason for the delay, per Barry, was waiting for the market price to be set, which the Seth Jones deal (represented by his partner, Pat) established.

Once they then had the basic 7 x $9M target deal set, then the rest of the time went into negotiating the details of the contract so it wasn't front-loaded, which turned out to match the team's desires, per Barry. Lots of back and forth about how the signing bonuses vs. salary for each year to match league guidelines for how such contracts must be structured. But seems negotiations were with one team only. Sort of match the market price guys and he's yours.

In fact, when asked if his phone rang from other teams while those details were being worked out he said "not really". And also added that once he had the basics of a deal with a team he didn't really do that.

So, sounds like to me that New Jersey was identified early by the player/agent, they were interested, a basic contract framework was established ("We'll pay list price"), list price was established by the Seth Jones contract, and the cash flow was then negotiated over a period of a couple of days.

Doesn't sound like it was shopped around. Doesn't sound like the Canes were in it at all. Doesn't sound like any other team was really in on it at all. And, in fact, we heard nothing about any other team really being interested and/or the agent playing off New Jersey's interest against any other org, including the Canes.

But give it a listen and see what you think. Kind of explains a lot if this is indeed the way it went down.

The Athletic Hockey Show podcast (July 29, 2021)

Thanks for breaking it down for us.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Thanks for breaking it down for us.

So basically, it all but confirms what we already knew. The Canes were never in the picture when it came to re-signing Hamilton, and all the talk about being confident in re-signing him or demanding an answer by X date was just posturing by the Borg.

There had to be a better way to handle it than the way DW did. I'd say he needs to take some PR classes, but I doubt Dundon would pay for them.

 

[SoupNazi]

I wonder how often it happens that agents contact teams and offer the player's services, versus the other way around.

 

[Wolfpuck]

So basically, it all but confirms what we already knew. The Canes were never in the picture when it came to re-signing Hamilton, and all the talk about being confident in re-signing him or demanding an answer by X date was just posturing by the Borg.

There had to be a better way to handle it than the way DW did. I'd say he needs to take some PR classes, but I doubt Dundon would pay for them.

There’s probably free shit on YouTube or something. But Donny Turtleneck can’t use the PNC Arena wifi. That costs money. He’ll have to use his own data.

 

[Lempo]

I wonder how often it happens that agents contact teams and offer the player's services, versus the other way around.

If this article is anything to judge by, it happens, even when it's forbidden to happen.

"How smart people tamper"

Friedman went on to explain that players and agents were in the middle of tampering situations, with specifics examples. GMs across the NHL are getting the hang of this:

“I had one agent flat-out tell me one time he had a conversation six months before his player got to free agency and said, ‘I’m not doing my job if I don’t test the market,’ “ said Friedman. “So he calls up a GM he thinks he’ll be interested in him and… they never mention names. ‘Will you be looking for a left-shot D next year?’

“‘Yeah. I’m looking for someone about 28 years old. Left-shot D. Maybe has a pedigree from the Western Hockey League.’

“So basically they’re doing everything except mentioning the name. And that’s kind of the way things go.”

Violation of tampering by-law in the NHL!?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

So basically, it all but confirms what we already knew. The Canes were never in the picture when it came to re-signing Hamilton, and all the talk about being confident in re-signing him or demanding an answer by X date was just posturing by the Borg.

There had to be a better way to handle it than the way DW did. I'd say he needs to take some PR classes, but I doubt Dundon would pay for them.

Would PR classes contribute to more wins or a better on ice product? No
Would PR classes add to the bottom line? Very unlikely.

conclusion? No, Dundon won’t pay for them, and I wouldn’t either if I was in his shoes.

 

[chaz4hockey]

So basically, it all but confirms what we already knew. The Canes were never in the picture when it came to re-signing Hamilton, and all the talk about being confident in re-signing him or demanding an answer by X date was just posturing by the Borg.

There had to be a better way to handle it than the way DW did. I'd say he needs to take some PR classes, but I doubt Dundon would pay for them.

I find it as interesting (perhaps more so) that no other team came looking for Dougie. They either a) realized that the game was rigged for Jersey or b) (probable) that the Cost-value for him was way out of line.

Many may not like it but the Canes were probably right in their approach with Dougie.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I find it as interesting (perhaps more so) that no other team came looking for Dougie. They either a) realized that the game was rigged for Jersey or b) (probable) that the Cost-value for him was way out of line.

Many may not like it but the Canes were probably right in their approach with Dougie.

If I read that prior post correctly, NJ set the market early and the agent was telling other teams to match it. I think no other teams wanted him @ $9m x 7.

 

[bleedgreen]

I wonder how often it happens that agents contact teams and offer the player's services, versus the other way around.

When the team tells you to go shop your services, probably frequently.

 

[bleedgreen]

If other defenseman keep getting 8-10 then Dougie’s deal isn’t out of line. If the market keeps changing it becomes the standard deal. The conversation referenced even says the market was set by Jones. If he maintains his play the next few years there shouldn’t be anyone blinking at this contract. They’re also improving in a division that’s faltering.

 

[sheriff bart]

Because he didn't go to arbitration. The Wings put money on the table and he took it.

His family lives close to Cleveland which is a 2 1/2 hour drive from Detroit. His fiance is at Michigan State which is about a 75 min drive from Detroit. Ya think that didn't factor in to his willingness to get a deal done?

 

[Lempo]

His family lives close to Cleveland which is a 2 1/2 hour drive from Detroit. His fiance is at Michigan State which is about a 75 min drive from Detroit. Ya think that didn't factor in to his willingness to get a deal done?

If I am an NHL agent, I'd be like f*** your family and f*** your fianceé, I gotta eat too and Colorado would pay 500k more. They got weed there, man! Weed!

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

If I am an NHL agent, I'd be like f*** your family and f*** your fianceé, I gotta eat too and Colorado would pay 500k more. They got weed there, man! Weed!

Not all agents are Kaprizov’s

 

[tarheelhockey]

His family lives close to Cleveland which is a 2 1/2 hour drive from Detroit. His fiance is at Michigan State which is about a 75 min drive from Detroit. Ya think that didn't factor in to his willingness to get a deal done?

Maybe. The other part of it is he could lose money if he goes to arbitration. $3M is more than fair for a guy with 29 games to his name. He’d have been a fool not to take it.

 

[Canes]

If I am an NHL agent, I'd be like f*** your family and f*** your fianceé, I gotta eat too and Colorado would pay 500k more. They got weed there, man! Weed!

Michigan has weed now too.

 

[Lempo]

Michigan has weed now too.

Weed and skiing!

 

[VibesAlive]

Weed and skiing!

Weed and ice fishing.