Value of: Don Cherry Suggestion - Marner for Gudbranson

[Michel Beauchamp]

Huh. Apparently some stereotypes exist for a reason.

Nasty... but so right.

 

[Patagonia]

After reading this thread I think Cherry secretly posts here and just wanted some entertainment to read the next morning while he took his morning dump. Everyone knows this was a ridiculous statement, we don't have to bash everyone from the star player to the janitor on each others teams.

Actually, I reposted his HNIC comment.

It’s more like he has nothing positive to say, to create interest in his show. He also complained about Swedes WJC Dress Code and Liberals?

Bizarre...

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I can't wait for the "I told you so" when we see Boeser come back to earth after this hot streak. If anyone seriously thinks a guy can continue to score at this pace with these weak underlying stats and shot generation, I pity you. This would be the time to sell high on a guy imo.

Although Jeff isn't exactly thought of as an expert around here, here are some facts he put together yesterday.





I don't give a **** how good your shot is, there's no way this guy is nearly as good as he's been, and there's 0 chance I'd ever trade Nylander/Marner for him, let alone the joke of a suggestion around Matthews.

Yah so what happens when his ice time goes up? What happens when he starts taking more shots? What happens when he gets 2 thirds of his line back? What happens when he gets to play with better more offensive teammates. Funny your example failed to mention any of these.

None of us realistically expect his shooting percentage to stay the same, but he still looks like a 40 goal scorer and when the things I first mentioned happen then his goal totals should be able to stay the same. You don't care how good his shot is? Prettty sure if a player can shoot as well as Brock that means he can score, but what do I know.

You'd never trade Nylander or Marner? Good because we would never trade Boeser for either of those two. I guess only Leafs Nation is allowed to be overexcited about a young player?

 

[TimeZone]

Did you miss his shot in overtime lastnight? Clearly that is a shot of an over rated player? Everyone keeps saying the kid will slow down but its not happening. There is a reason why he shoots at 20 percent..............its because he has one of the best shots in the NHL and hes a rookie.

Yeah, its a "hot streak". Those usually last 40 games. If you don't want to enjoy what hes doing that's fine, I don't really understand that because players like this are good for the league. Don't try to tear the kid down and try to make what he is doing seem like its a nothingburger.

He's not overrated, but if you think that a shooting percentage of nearly 21% is sustainable then I'm not really sure what to tell you...because it's not.

 

[Morgs]

Yah so what happens when his ice time goes up? What happens when he starts taking more shots? What happens when he gets 2 thirds of his line back? What happens when he gets to play with better more offensive teammates. Funny your example failed to mention any of these.

None of us realistically expect his shooting percentage to stay the same, but he still looks like a 40 goal scorer and when the things I first mentioned happen then his goal totals should be able to stay the same. You don't care how good his shot is? Prettty sure if a player can shoot as well as Brock that means he can score, but what do I know.

You'd never trade Nylander or Marner? Good because we would never trade Boeser for either of those two. I guess only Leafs Nation is allowed to be overexcited about a young player?

You're more than welcome to get excited about your young players, but when mine come into play (as you've proven), we get defensive.

All I'm saying is when people think he's going to improve, I believe he's going to regress. His oiSH%, and his sh% have both been well above average, and it's screaming that unless this guy all of a sudden learns to generate chances (which is normally not a learned trait) this could be the best he'll ever do. Either that happens, or he gets a fantastic linemate which would indicate him being second fiddle.

It's like buying high into a guy on FA who just had a great season that was almost entirely based on their SH%.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Just a few things: he’s right that the shooting percentage will probably drop a bit. How much remains to be seen, but scoring in 1 out of every 5 shots is pretty insane, and unlikely to carry over in the long-term. When you look at the guys who top the goal scoring lists, the highest are usually in the 16% range. Sometimes 17%. And I don’t think those are numbers you’d expect them to hit on a consistent basis season to season.

I agree with you.

And sustainability is such a "mot du jour" concept that many people overuse.

Let's take an average/good player like Paul Byron.

His shooting percentage in 2.5 seasons with the Canadiens is 21.2% (22.0, 22.0 and 17.9).

That last number (17.9) is one that 98+% of NHL forwards would love to have.

An indication that he might sustain that is his 55.6% success rate in SO with the Canadiens, 54.5% over his career..

 

[Red Piller]

He's not overrated, but if you think that a shooting percentage of nearly 21% is sustainable then I'm not really sure what to tell you...because it's not.

Yeah. I never said that. Not once did I say it's sustainable. He's a good young player who has a chance to score 40 goals. Our franchise hasn't had this kind of rookie in decades, let us have this.

 

[Syckle78]

I would pay money to se Don and Milbury GM a team, man that would be comedy gold...

Sounds like a fun buddy sitcom cbc should look into.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

You're more than welcome to get excited about your young players, but when mine come into play (as you've proven), we get defensive.

All I'm saying is when people think he's going to improve, I believe he's going to regress. His oiSH%, and his sh% have both been well above average, and it's screaming that unless this guy all of a sudden learns to generate chances (which is normally not a learned trait) this could be the best he'll ever do. Either that happens, or he gets a fantastic linemate which would indicate him being second fiddle.

It's like buying high into a guy on FA who just had a great season that was almost entirely based on their SH%.

If someone offered up Nylander or Marner for Boeser I would not act like it was a crazy notion, because it's not.

Ok once again his shooting percentage is high, fine, not sustainable sure. Again what happens when his ice time goes up? what happens when he gets back Bo Horvat? What happens when he gets any support at all from a proper blue line? What happens when he shoots the puck more? Ovi is probably the best goal scorer of this generation, he averages over 300 shots a year, is it not possible that Boeser could do the same?

He is stuck on a garbage team, how in the hell can you rationalize that this will be the best he will ever do? Please watch the guy play, his shot is unreal, there is a reason it's been compared to Brett Hull (not that I'm saying he's the next Brett Hull), it's not dumb luck, he knows where to find room, he knows where to position himself, and he can get his shot off at an incredible pace, like he did against the leafs on Saturday night.

 

[daveleaf]

This is a ridiculous thread. Cherry alluded to the idea. He basically said Tor had interest in the player but you don't want to make that trade because you know what they are going to want and he said you wouldn't do it. You guys obviously have nothing better to do, that is what is more bizarre.

A bizarre suggestion created by Don Cherry. I'm sure other teams can offer more for Marner.

"Another classic segment from Cherry, but between all of his musings on Saturday night, suggesting the Maple Leafs would have to give up a player like Mitch Marner to acquire third-pairing blueliner Erik Gudbranson from Vancouver was by far the most egregious."




Don Cherry has some thoughts on how you should dress, Team Sweden

 

[Morgs]

If someone offered up Nylander or Marner for Boeser I would not act like it was a crazy notion, because it's not.

Ok once again his shooting percentage is high, fine, not sustainable sure. Again what happens when his ice time goes up? what happens when he gets back Bo Horvat? What happens when he gets any support at all from a proper blue line? What happens when he shoots the puck more? Ovi is probably the best goal scorer of this generation, he averages over 300 shots a year, is it not possible that Boeser could do the same?

He is stuck on a garbage team, how in the hell can you rationalize that this will be the best he will ever do? Please watch the guy play, his shot is unreal, there is a reason it's been compared to Brett Hull (not that I'm saying he's the next Brett Hull), it's not dumb luck, he knows where to find room, he knows where to position himself, and he can get his shot off at an incredible pace, like he did against the leafs on Saturday night.

Have you seen the guy's who said they would only "consider" trading him for Matthews. As if Benning wouldn't pick up Boeser himself and drive him to Toronto.

I agree those are absolutely factors, but those are only "what ifs". It's been proven that unless your name is Steven Stamkos, you're not going to shoot over 15% for an extended period of time; even a guy like Kuch is one shot from falling away from 15% over the past two years. So let's pretend like Boeser ends up shooting 15% next season (which is still very high), with a high but not unreasonable 3 shots per game. That would mean he scores 37 goals next year. That right there is probably a top-5 goal scoring season.

What I'm trying to say is that no matter how good a guy's shot is (his is amazing), teams and goalies are still going to figure out how to stop it. He's either going to have to become an elite shot generator (like Ovechkin), or a guy who's accuracy/HD chances will be able to make up for his deficiency in shot generation (Stamkos, Laine).

I've watched him, and I've seen what he's made of. For me I think he's got a great chance to have a Jeff Skinner-type career (which is fantastic), with an outside chance of being better. For goalscorers though, you need to see either the shot generation or the HD chance generation get to elite territory before I think of them as having the elite potential.

 

[Crosscrease14]

Leafs add

 

[Morgs]

If someone offered up Nylander or Marner for Boeser I would not act like it was a crazy notion, because it's not.

Ok once again his shooting percentage is high, fine, not sustainable sure. Again what happens when his ice time goes up? what happens when he gets back Bo Horvat? What happens when he gets any support at all from a proper blue line? What happens when he shoots the puck more? Ovi is probably the best goal scorer of this generation, he averages over 300 shots a year, is it not possible that Boeser could do the same?

He is stuck on a garbage team, how in the hell can you rationalize that this will be the best he will ever do? Please watch the guy play, his shot is unreal, there is a reason it's been compared to Brett Hull (not that I'm saying he's the next Brett Hull), it's not dumb luck, he knows where to find room, he knows where to position himself, and he can get his shot off at an incredible pace, like he did against the leafs on Saturday night.

Also, here's a fun exercise when it comes to Boeser:

at 3 shots a game, it would take a 16.3% shooting percentage to score 40 goals in a season. Look at a list of all the players who have more than 3 shots/game this year (the top-33 guys), and look at everyone of their sh%:

Only 5 guys have more than 4 shots/game (Tarasenko, Ovechkin, Seguin, Burns, E. Kane) Those guys sh% are 9.6, 14.8, 11.9, 4.1, 9.4 respectively. If we remove Ovechkin's 14.8% (because he's always the outlier in goals) we have Tyler Seguin as probably the 2nd best goal scorer this season with a very reasonable 11.9 sh%. and 21 goals.

Looking at the other 28 players on that list of 3 shots+/game:

3 guys with more than a 15 sh%: (Kucherov, Tavares, Couturier).

4 guys between 12.5-14.9% (MacKinnon, Malkin, Toffoli, Benn).

12 guys between 10-12.4%

9 guys under 10% (2 of which are defenseman)

My guess is that Boeser one day will fall into the 12.5-14.9% category with around 3-3.5 shots a game. Meaning his best seasons he might be able to touch 40 goals, but it's more realistic we should be thinking somewhere closer to 35. It is not easy to score 30 goals in the NHL, and nothing Boeser has done has shown me differently.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Have you seen the guy's who said they would only "consider" trading him for Matthews. As if Benning wouldn't pick up Boeser himself and drive him to Toronto.

I agree those are absolutely factors, but those are only "what ifs". It's been proven that unless your name is Steven Stamkos, you're not going to shoot over 15% for an extended period of time; even a guy like Kuch is one shot from falling away from 15% over the past two years. So let's pretend like Boeser ends up shooting 15% next season (which is still very high), with a high but not unreasonable 3 shots per game. That would mean he scores 37 goals next year. That right there is probably a top-5 goal scoring season.

What I'm trying to say is that no matter how good a guy's shot is (his is amazing), teams and goalies are still going to figure out how to stop it. He's either going to have to become an elite shot generator (like Ovechkin), or a guy who's accuracy/HD chances will be able to make up for his deficiency in shot generation (Stamkos, Laine).

I've watched him, and I've seen what he's made of. For me I think he's got a great chance to have a Jeff Skinner-type career (which is fantastic), with an outside chance of being better. For goalscorers though, you need to see either the shot generation or the HD chance generation get to elite territory before I think of them as having the elite potential.

First of all, and I simply cannot understand why your fan base is so inept at understanding this, we don't want to trade Boeser, so if we did it would take an overpayment, Mathews qualifies as an overpayment, that's why that fan said that.

He will get more ice time, that is not a what if, with more ice time, he will get more shots, again not a what if, he will get better line mates, Bo Horvat is coming back in less than a month. If Boeser can put up 37 goals a season or around that I am ecstatic. I think he can be a 40 goal scorer if he can average 300 or more shots a year which is roughly 4 shots a game. His accuracy is already stellar again you have watched him and don't see this?

Jeff Skinner? No looks to be better than that, his shot is better and more accurate, not that Skinner isn't a great player he is, maybe my homerism is on high, I just feel like his shot is better.

 

[Morgs]

First of all, and I simply cannot understand why your fan base is so inept at understanding this, we don't want to trade Boeser, so if we did it would take an overpayment, Mathews qualifies as an overpayment, that's why that fan said that.

He will get more ice time, that is not a what if, with more ice time, he will get more shots, again not a what if, he will get better line mates, Bo Horvat is coming back in less than a month. If Boeser can put up 37 goals a season or around that I am ecstatic. I think he can be a 40 goal scorer if he can average 300 or more shots a year which is roughly 4 shots a game. His accuracy is already stellar again you have watched him and don't see this?

Jeff Skinner? No looks to be better than that, his shot is better and more accurate, not that Skinner isn't a great player he is, maybe my homerism is on high, I just feel like his shot is better.

I'm aware he will get more ice-time, and will have better linemates. I'm just trying to show you how hard it is to be a 40 goal scorer in this league, let alone a 35 goal scorer.

As I mentioned in the post above, only 5 players this year have more than 4 shots a game. This is not an easy feat by any means, and even some of the better goal scorers in the league (such as Laine) are not even in the 3 shot per game category.

The reason I say Skinner is because I believe they will have similar careers, but will come to it in different ways. Skinner is more volume than accuracy (opposite of Boeser), but I think that like Skinner, Boeser will average around 30-35 goals/season with about as many assists because their primary concern is putting the puck in the net. Skinner creates his chances with his fantastic skating. We'll see in the future if and how Boeser creates his.

 

[beowulf]

Cherry is a senile old fart just like Trump who he likely loves.

 

[BigTruzz]

Boeser, aka the most overrated player in the NHL. Let's watch what people think when the guy stops shooting at a 20%+ clip with a 10.5 oish%. It's not like he's a great playmaker, or has good underlying stats. It's called a hot streak.

I can't believe the wave this guys riding. No way I'd trade Nylander/Marner for him. Hell I'd most likely keep Kadri in a one for one.

It's called you know nothing about hockey.

He's played 39 games and the most games he's gone without a point is 2.

Vancouver has scored 4 goals in the last 3 games. He's scored on one, got a primary assist for one, and been on the ice for the other two. The whole offense revolves around him. He's carrying the load for a garbage team. Get your facts straight before saying stupid things.

 

[rent free]

marner, polak and a 3rd for boeser and gudbranson

 

[dman34]

marner, polak and a 3rd for boeser and gudbranson

Change Marner to Matthews and you have yourself a deal.

 

[Cupless44]

I'm aware he will get more ice-time, and will have better linemates. I'm just trying to show you how hard it is to be a 40 goal scorer in this league, let alone a 35 goal scorer.

As I mentioned in the post above, only 5 players this year have more than 4 shots a game. This is not an easy feat by any means, and even some of the better goal scorers in the league (such as Laine) are not even in the 3 shot per game category.

The reason I say Skinner is because I believe they will have similar careers, but will come to it in different ways. Skinner is more volume than accuracy (opposite of Boeser), but I think that like Skinner, Boeser will average around 30-35 goals/season with about as many assists because their primary concern is putting the puck in the net. Skinner creates his chances with his fantastic skating. We'll see in the future if and how Boeser creates his.

I think Boeser is better than you think he is.

Through first 47 career games:
Brock Boeser 26 goals 44 points
Auston Matthews 23 goals 39 points

Boeser is more than just a shooter. His hockey IQ is off the charts and his passing is vastly under rated.

 

[rent free]

Change Marner to Matthews and you have yourself a deal.

hilarious.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Boeser, aka the most overrated player in the NHL. Let's watch what people think when the guy stops shooting at a 20%+ clip with a 10.5 oish%. It's not like he's a great playmaker, or has good underlying stats. It's called a hot streak.

I can't believe the wave this guys riding. No way I'd trade Nylander/Marner for him. Hell I'd most likely keep Kadri in a one for one.

You spout the same garbage in another thread, and expect it would stick here too? Misinformed as usual I see.

Just because you don't know a single thing about Boeser (more accurate when you didn't even know his age) doesn't make him overrated. Just because you don't understand what makes him such a great player doesn't make him the most overrated player in the nhl. That title belongs to Matthews only or a leaf player in general.

You'd think you'd know more about Boeser and what he's capable of, as he matched pace on pace with Matthews. Leafs fans like you (and trust there are others like you) just want to downplay the shit out of other young non-leaf players due to insecurity. Nothing more. It's pitiful, and I pity you.
Watch some actual games then look at underlying stats garbage that aren't reliable whatsoever. Yes his high percentage won't be sustainable, but he will make up for it regardless with more ice time, better linemates, more opportunities, etc. Watch some actual games Boeser players instead of few highlights.

Boeser is more than just about goals. He's also shown to be a decent defensive player, has shown some actual play making ability (see his recent pass to del zotto for the goal) and works hard every night. His skating is slightly improving as well.

The Skinner comparision is invalid as they play different, and Boeser will score 10 goals more per average in a season than the former will.

I can't believe the garbage you spout and bark about the player. Atleast do your research properly.
The production stats, the circumstances he has to fight hard for, the lack of offensive support he gets, on a terrible team, the eye test all show he is or is a elite player.

Over 40 games isn't a hot streak anymore. No more excuses, belittling, nitpicking to fit your biased agenda and narrative. Either concede or get out.

Boeser will always be a high end sniper, that regularly scores about 40 goals a season, because he has the skills to do so. His best season may end up with near 50+ goals, and that's likely as long as he has a capable playmaker by his side. When you see Boeser, you can see he has the knack for scoring goals. He makes it look effortless with his shot. There was one instance, where Price had a good look one one one, and got beaten badly. He had no chance. That's what Boeser can do. He'll be a top 3 goal scorer in this league for years to come, and isn't even close to one dimensional at all especially when he has other attributes outside of scoring

Kudos to the few leafs fans in this forum that have the objective means to praise and show actual knowledge about a player. How rare it is.

 

[Ace of Hades]

His shooting percentage will be *at least* Stamkos/Laine level, eh?

He’ll probably even get up to 30/40% in his prime!

Atleast or in general. Whatever you want to pick.

Hmmm feint praise.

 

[ole ole]

Kapanen + 1st,

 

[Sojourn]

marner, polak and a 3rd for boeser and gudbranson

If people are saying Marner for Boeser is a no from Vancouver, why in the world do you think your proposal changes it to a yes?