Do these guys belong in the Hall of Fame?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, Jun 15, 2007.

  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Out of these guys all who arent in the Hall....yet, tell me who do you think should be in out of them?

    Mark Recchi - His name almsot always makes you hesitate. There's no clear cut answer with him. So far in his career he has 1333 points in 1338 games. Thats a point per game. He has 117 points in 140 playoff games. You could argue he was a big part of both Cup wins in '91 and '06. In '91 only a small handful of guys have had more points (34) in a playoff year. His peak is pretty good but he only has one Second Team all-star selection in '92 to show for it (although he got gyped in '91 if you ask me). His best years point-wise are: 123, 113, 107, 97, 91, 80. That screams Hall of Fame. He led the league in assists in '00. He was in the top 10 in scoring 5 times which is impressive. The only thing that bugs me about him is that he was a huge supporting player on his teams but was never ever the guy you HAD to shut down if you wanted to win. And was he ever an elite player in the NHL? Was he a top 10 player in any year? Hard to say.

    John Leclair - I've always liked him but have never been a fan of him being touted for the Hall. Sure he looks good on paper with being selected to the first team all-star in '95 and '98. And the Second team in '96, '97 and '99. Those numbers look good. His point totals are 97, 97, 90, 87 and 77. That isnt a lot when you look at it but considering he was a top 10 scorer 4 times those numbers look even better. Many people mention how the LW position is weak. It is, but he was battling against the likes of Kariya, Tkachuk and Shanahan for those spots. Pretty good company. His three straight 50 goal seasons are hard to ignore too. He led the league in +/- in '99 as well. The problem with Leclair is that he never started scoring until he was 25. And even then it only lasted until he was 31. He had a short peak and in that time he did nothing in the playoffs. His playoff numbers are shabby and other than '93 - when he won a Cup - he never did anything in the playoffs that you liked. Plus unlike Steve Shutt you got to see what he could really do without a superstar player on his line. Once Lindros was gone so was Leclair pretty much. To me that leaves a bad taste. I wouldnt put him in the Hall personally.

    Rod BrindAmour - It gets harder to ignore him all the time. I'm not saying he should get in but with back to back Selke awards and winning a Cup and captaining a Cup champion he holds an interesting resume. Last year I wouldnt have batted an eyelash if he was the Conn Smythe winner since he was a huge reason why Carolina won. He's got 1063 points in 1265 games which is good, but only that - good. I have a hard time calling BrindAmour great. He's done some great stuff and he was a guy you never would kick off your team. You liked him and he was great for secondary support wherever he went. Personally that just isnt enough for me.

    Luc Robitaille - No you arent going blind. I'm not suggesting he should be kept out of the Hall of Fame but to me he isnt the shoo-in that some have him pegged. If you look at his 8 selections to the all-star team you have to wonder why his name even gets brought up. But that's deceptive. He was at the LW position and while that shouldnt be a knock just look at the competition he was facing those years. 1987 first team: Goulet, 2nd team Robitaille. 1988 1st all-star: Robitaille, 2nd team Goulet. '89 first team: Robitaille, 2nd team Gallant. '90 first team: Robitaille, 2nd team Bellows. '91 first team: Robitaille, 2nd team Stevens. '92: first team Stevens, 2nd team Robitaille. '93 first team: Robitaille, 2nd team Stevens. '01 first team: Elias, 2nd team Robitaille. I think those 8 all-star selections are deceptive. Other than Goulet none of the players are Hall of Famers at the LW position. Sure Robitaille put up big points but of all those huge numbers he put up he was in the top 10 in scoring 4 times. Did Robitaille reach an elite level at any time? Was he a top 10 player in the game? His playoff numbers arent bad but he didnt win a Cup until '02 which he was a small part of. His all-star selections wont be ignored and while I'm not saying he isnt a Hall of Fame player I'm saying he isnt the 1st ballot player some make him out to be.

    Gary Suter - He's a touchy one. Depending on who you ask Suter should never see the light of day in the Hall. People remember his cheap shot on Gretzky, Kariya and his wicked slash over the face of Andrei Lomakin in the '87 Canada Cup. But if you put all of those things aside he isnt that far off for the Hall and can at least be debated. He only has one Second team all-star in '88. He had 91 points that year which is great. I think from '87-96 Suter was a very good "near great" defenseman. In '86 he won the Calder Trophy and in '89 the Cup. He didnt play much in the playoffs in '89 but still has a pretty good playoff resume. On personality alone I wouldnt induct Suter - I couldnt stand him - and IMO he's still a bit short to ever get into the Hall. Now would be the time. People wont have a lasting memory of him in 30 years and feel they HAVE to put him in.
     
  2. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Recchi - yes
    LeClair - no
    Brind'amour - no
    Robitaille - absolute lock
    Suter - no


    While i wouldn't put Brind'amour in, I do beileve that if he traded places with Ron Francis ... starting his career in the early 80's, and then joining the early 90's Penguins, with Lemieux, Jagr etc. he'd have been every bit as good, and he'd be in the Hall and Franics wouldbeon the outside looking in.
     
  3. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Recchi - Maybe - He was so great (but maybe not elite) for so long that he might get in. The HHOF wouldn't be hurt if he gets in for sure.

    Robitaille - In for sure

    The rest - I would love them on my team but they weren't great enough for long enough.
     
  4. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Brind'Amour was always a very good player. But he is not near the playmaker Francis was nor the point producer.

    Francis makes the Hall (perhaps not with the fanfare he has got the last 5 or 6 years) if he stayed on Hartford/Carolina and never went to the Pens.

    Brind'Amour would have had a better shot if he was on those Pens Cups teams but I still think he would be borderline.

    Brind'Amour is getting more cred now for his defensive abilities while Francis never quite got the recognition for his awesome 2 way game. He did get credit for the points.

    I think Francis was the better player by a bit and he never had offensive off seasons.

    If Brind'Amopur wins 2 or 3 more Selke's and keeps putting 85-90 points for 3 or 4 more years (which is possible) he may get a look at the HHOF. But he still would be borderline even if he is what he is until he is past 40. Unless Carolina wins another Cup or 2. Then he may go from borderline to likely.
     
  5. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Francis is slightly better offensively, but I think they're much more similar than the number show. Francis was helped quite a bit by playing during the 80's, and then playing with 2 of the 5 or 6 greatest offensive players of all-time in Pittsburgh.


    While Francis was a good all-around player, Brind'amour is stronger, better on face-offs and a better defensive player than Francis.

    Very very similar players.
     
  6. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Thay are similar but I think you are not giving credit for the passing game of Francis. He was an Oates/Gretzky junior. And while Brind'Amour is tougher and more physical Francis was a great defensive forward in his own right. But I agree Brindy might be better.

    What is amazing about Brind'Amour is his ridiculous ice time the last 5 or 6 seasons. Look at the amount of ice time he has played even before last season and Brindy's second offensive breakout. He played 23-25 minutes a game at forward for many, many seasons.

    I am not arguing for Brind'Amour in the HHOF but he is a great player right now and for a long time. He can be a top PK and PP and ES forward every single year while being a top faceoff guy.

    I would love Brindy on my team or Francis. They would help any team anywhere. In my mnd neither are truly elite top 10 in the league players any season they played. But they are close to that and every single year.

    They both IMO only are Gartner superior players (in helping you win) for just as long at just as great a consistency.

    Gartner got the 700+ goals and he is in. Francis will make it. Brindy is not quite as good as those 2 offensively and maybe not quite as good overall but he is close.

    In regards to this thread. You might not want Recchi or Brindy to be your best player if you want to win a Cup but if he is your 2nd or 3rd or 4th best player then you might well be a Cup contender or winner.
     
  7. DaveG

    DaveG Global Moderator

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    Recchi - borderline, I'm leaning yes but there's just something that seems to be missing for him... and when you look at his accomplishments you really have no idea what it is.

    LeClair - no

    Brind'Amour - right now no, but if he plays at the level he does now for another 2 or 3 (something that Rod could easily do with his dedication to conditioning) adding another Selke or two in the process then yes. If Rod captains the Canes to another cup, even if he drops off a bit, I think he's a lock.

    Robitaille - lock, I'll be stunned if he doesn't make it

    Suter - no
     
  8. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    Brind'Amour has the same thing going for him that Cam Neely did: Everybody loves his style of game, everybody respects him, and everybody would take them on their team in a heartbeat. Brind'Amour is one of the most decicated players on the planet, and is one of the greatest leaders of his generation. He should have gotten the Conn Smythe last year, but nonetheless people will still remember him leading Carolina to the Cup. I'd put him in if he retired today, and as long as he has a few more decent years, the voters will put him in as well.

    John LeClair's career was extremely similar to another Flyer, Tim Kerr. A great peak, but that was it. No build-up, and a fast decline due to injury, meaning their career numbers don't stack up well against other HOFers. If LeClair had won his Cup in Philadelphia he might just squeek in one of these days, but his Cup will not likely have much impact with the voters since it was before he was a star player and he wasn't a core member of his team. No to LeClair.

    Recchi being an important part of last year's Cup will seal the deal, though I agree with the above poster that there's just something missing. Recchi may be about as borderline as they come. He never really struck fear into his opponents, but 500+ goals and (quite possibly) 1400 points, along with the two Cups and the 34-point playoff in '91 is just too much to ignore.

    Robitaille is in, no question. Even though he was one-dimensional, he was one of the very best at what he did for a long time. 8 consecutive 40+ goal seasons to begin his career, and then a decade to pad his career numbers and win a Cup.

    At first I thought Suter was a clear "no", but then I looked closer, and he does have over 800 points as a defenseman. Still, the lack of all-star selections indicates that he was always good, but never considered one of the elite players. Sort of like Doug Wilson, who's not in the Hall either. The Gretzky/Kariya incidents probably ensure that he doesn't get in.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  9. ForsbergForever

    ForsbergForever Red Rocket

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    Recchi-500+ goals, 1300+ points, solid leader, Cups with Pens and Canes, former NHL ironman, i'd say he has a good shot

    LeClair-no, maybe if he had hit 500 goals and won a Cup but as it stands, his career fell short

    Robitaille-definition of hall of famer

    Brind'amour-two consecutive Selkes is pointing him in the right direction, borderline as of now tho, like others have said, how he ends his career will tip the scales one way or another

    Suter-no, had some excellent years and was a feared/dirty opponent but is prime candidate for hall of very good, Gretzky/Kariya, as mentioned, don't paint a very sportsmanlike picture of him
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  10. V-2 Schneider

    V-2 Schneider Registered User

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    LeClair did win a Cup, and potted two OT winners.
     
  11. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Recchi is borderline. Will probably make it, but as others have said something is missing. It's probably that he was never really his team's best player, isn't really an icon for any NHL franchise ... never really had any 'star' quality at all. But his stats and rings will win out eventually, although it might take awhile.

    Leclair won't get in. But he deserves a lot more credit than he gets. Scored more goals than any player in the game from 1994-2000. I don't think you'll find a player who was even top-5 in goals for a stretch that long at any point in the history of the league who isn't in the HHOF. It's a really compelling stat, as are the postseason All-Star nods. Problem is that outside of those 6 seasons, he was never at any point a top-150 player in the game. Weird case to have such a dominant prime with such a gap over the rest of the player's career. His peak value is clearly HHOF-calibre - brings into debate all kinds of questions re:career stats vs. peak value, the value of longevity, and the like. In the end, though, he probably won't get in ... even though his career is better than those of guys like Shutt, Barber, and Gillies.

    Brind'Amour is pretty marginal. My vote would probably be no. Never close to top-10 in scoring, never a post-season All-Star. His last two seasons post-lockout have been great, but before that? Not even close. A 70-80 point player for most of the 1990s, which isn't exactly HHOF material. And his seasons from 1999-2004 were mediocre by any standard ... barely 50 points/82 GP.

    Funny how things work sometimes - compare Roenick and Brind'Amour. Taken in the same draft, careers completely overlap. Roenick's peak years at the beginning of his career were IMO substantially better than Brind'Amour's peak years at the end of his. Roenick was pretty consistently a better player for the first 15 years of their careers up until the 2004 lockout. But all that's forgotten and only what happens lately seems to matter - so Brind'Amour is getting a big push for his HHOF chances, and the consensus seems to be that Roenick won't make it.

    Robitaille is a dead lock. Dominant career stats, best player in his position from 86-94, loads of 50-goal and 100-point seasons, won a Cup. Almost surely in on the first ballot.

    Suter was a good player but isn't a HHOFer and isn't really close. Was never the #1 defender on his team, spending his entire career in the shadows of MacInnis and Chelios. 1 post-season All-Star nod, never contended for a Norris. Fairly comparable to Doug Wilson and Randy Carlyle, but those guys at least won the Norris. That said, he's probably quite comparable to Guy Lapointe as well, but then Lapointe was a key player on a Cup dynasty which makes a big difference. Suter's legacy of brutal cheapshots doesn't really help his case much, either.
     
  12. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    Paul Thompson led the league in points between '33 and '38. He must have been close in goals.
     
  13. Koivu84*

    Koivu84* Guest

    Recchi - Yes
    LeClair - No
    Brind'amour - No
    Robitaille - Lock
    Suter - No
     
  14. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    I wouldn't put Leclair in, but I also don't think he gets the recognition he deserves. From 1995-2000 only Jagr scored more goals (1 more, to be exact). When era is taken into account, are his numbers really any different than those of Tim Kerr or Rick Middleton? They may even be better.

    He had some nice playoffs as well. I think he's the only guy in NHL history with back-to-back overtime winners in the Cup finals (if I remember the stat correctly). He was very good in the Legion of Doom playoff years as well. A very good international performer as well. Once he hit age 30 though, his numbers just fell off a cliff in the playoffs.

    He lead the league in +/- twice, which is worth something I guess.



    I also agree about Robitaille. Surefire HOFer, but not as good as some would have you believe.
     
  15. barfy2000

    barfy2000 Registered User

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    You can't exactly blame him for that though...He did play in the shadow of Mario, then Eric...and while he was on Montreal the francophones like Damphousse and Turgeon seemed to get most of the credit (or whippings)...and now hes playing in the shadow of the Kid...
     
  16. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I dont mind Suter but Lapointe > Suter 8 days a week

    Lapointe had three 2nd team all-stars and 6 Cups. Not to mention winning the '72 Summit Series and the '76 Canada Cup. Points wise the comparison is correct but Lapointe brought way more to the table.
     
  17. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    Player -- Goals
    ====================
    Conacher Charlie -- 101
    Stewart Nels -- 99
    Dillon Ceece -- 97
    Barry Marty -- 94
    Thompson Paul -- 92
    Jackson Busher -- 91
    Aurie Larry -- 82
    Schriner Sweeney -- 79
    Joliat Aurel -- 77
    Howe Syd -- 76
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  18. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    Thanks pnep. Cecil Dillon is another guy that is often overlooked.
     
  19. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    Player Name -- GOALS (1917-22)
    ==================
    Malone Joe -- 142
    Denneny Cy -- 131
    Lalonde Newsy -- 124
    Noble Reg -- 100
    Denneny Corbett -- 90

    Player Name -- GOALS (1918-23)
    ==================
    Denneny Cy -- 118
    Dye Babe -- 103
    Lalonde Newsy -- 101
    Malone Joe -- 99
    Cleghorn Odie -- 88

    Player Name -- GOALS (1920-25)
    ==================
    Dye Babe -- 146
    Denneny Cy -- 133
    Boucher Billy -- 74
    Broadbent Harry Punch -- 73
    Noble Reg -- 69

    Player Name -- GOALS (1921-26)
    ==================
    Dye Babe -- 129
    Denneny Cy -- 123
    Boucher Billy -- 82
    Broadbent Harry Punch -- 81
    Adams Jack J. -- 75

    Player Name -- GOALS (1925-30)
    ==================
    Morenz Howie -- 138
    Stewart Nels -- 138
    Cook Bill -- 95
    Joliat Aurel -- 90
    Cooper Carson -- 88

    Player Name -- GOALS (1931-36)
    ==================
    Conacher Charlie -- 139
    Barry Marty -- 113
    Jackson Busher -- 108
    Cook Bill -- 103
    Dillon Ceece -- 100


    Player Name -- GOALS (1932-37)
    ==================
    Barry Marty -- 109
    Conacher Charlie -- 108
    Jackson Busher -- 101
    Stewart Nels -- 98
    Dillon Ceece -- 97


    Player Name -- GOALS (1933-38)
    ==================
    Conacher Charlie -- 101
    Stewart Nels -- 99
    Dillon Ceece -- 97
    Barry Marty -- 94
    Thompson Paul -- 92

    Player Name -- GOALS (1934-39)
    ==================
    Dillon Ceece -- 96
    Stewart Nels -- 93
    Schriner Sweeney -- 92
    Jackson Busher -- 81

    Player Name -- GOALS (1935-40)
    ==================
    Schriner Sweeney -- 85
    Drillon Gordie -- 81
    Stewart Nels -- 79
    Dillon Ceece -- 78
    Jackson Busher -- 71
    Howe Syd -- 71


    Player Name -- GOALS (1939-44)
    ==================
    Hextall Bryan Sr. -- 122
    Bentley Doug -- 103
    Howe Syd -- 102
    Carr Lorne -- 100
    Drillon Gordie -- 95
    Blake Toe -- 95

    Player Name -- GOALS (1940-45)
    ==================
    Carr Lorne -- 113
    Blake Toe -- 107
    Bruneteau Mud -- 106
    Howe Syd -- 105
    Cowley Bill -- 103

    Player Name -- GOALS (1941-46)
    ==================
    Blake Toe -- 124
    Richard Maurice -- 114
    Cain Herb -- 111
    Carr Lorne -- 105
    Liscombe Carl -- 103

    Player Name -- GOALS (1944-49)
    ==================
    Richard Maurice -- 170
    Lindsay Ted -- 110
    Bentley Max -- 105
    Mosienko Bill -- 104
    Warwick Grant Knobby -- 104

    Player Name -- GOALS (1945-50)
    ==================
    Richard Maurice -- 163
    Bentley Max -- 128
    Stewart Gaye -- 127
    Lindsay Ted -- 116
    Conacher Roy -- 105

    Player Name -- GOALS (1949-54)
    ==================
    Howe Gordie -- 207
    Richard Maurice -- 177
    Lindsay Ted -- 135
    Smith Sid -- 121
    Mosienko Bill -- 102


    Player Name -- GOALS (1950-55)
    ==================
    Howe Gordie -- 201
    Richard Maurice -- 172
    Smith Sid -- 132
    Lindsay Ted -- 131
    Geoffrion Bernie -- 127

    Player Name -- GOALS (1951-56)
    ==================
    Howe Gordie -- 196
    Richard Maurice -- 168
    Geoffrion Bernie -- 148
    Lindsay Ted -- 134
    Hergesheimer Wally -- 109


    Player Name -- GOALS (1960-65)
    ==================
    Hull Bobby -- 194
    Mahovlich Frank -- 166
    Howe Gordie -- 149
    Henry Camille -- 143
    Ullman Norm -- 143

    Player Name -- GOALS (1962-67)
    ==================
    Hull Bobby -- 219
    Mikita Stan -- 163
    Howe Gordie -- 147
    Ullman Norm -- 146
    Wharram Kenny -- 140

    Player Name -- GOALS (1963-68)
    ==================
    Hull Bobby -- 232
    Mikita Stan -- 172
    Ullman Norm -- 155
    Howe Gordie -- 148
    Wharram Kenny -- 147

    Player Name -- GOALS (1969-74)
    ==================
    Esposito Phil -- 308
    Redmond Mickey -- 192
    Cournoyer Yvan -- 191
    Bucyk John -- 185
    Mahovlich Frank -- 181

    Player Name -- GOALS (1970-75)
    ==================
    Esposito Phil -- 326
    Cournoyer Yvan -- 193
    Martin Rick -- 185
    Bucyk John -- 183
    Orr Bobby -- 181

    Player Name -- GOALS (1971-76)
    ==================
    Esposito Phil -- 285
    Martin Rick -- 234
    Cournoyer Yvan -- 188
    Ratelle Jean -- 187
    Lafleur Guy -- 187

    Player Name -- GOALS (1972-77)
    ==================
    Esposito Phil -- 253
    Martin Rick -- 226
    Lafleur Guy -- 214
    Dionne Marcel -- 204
    Macleish Rick -- 191

    Player Name -- GOALS (1973-78)
    ==================
    Lafleur Guy -- 246
    Esposito Phil -- 236
    Martin Rick -- 217
    Pronovost Jean -- 208
    Dionne Marcel -- 200

    Player Name -- GOALS (1974-79)
    ==================
    Lafleur Guy -- 277
    Dionne Marcel -- 235
    Shutt Steve -- 221
    Esposito Phil -- 210
    Martin Rick -- 197


    Player Name -- GOALS (1975-80)
    ==================
    Lafleur Guy -- 274
    Dionne Marcel -- 241
    Shutt Steve -- 238
    Mcdonald Lanny -- 213
    Leach Reggie -- 201

    Player Name -- GOALS (1978-83)
    ==================
    Bossy Mike -- 312
    Dionne Marcel -- 276
    Gretzky Wayne -- 269
    Mcdonald Lanny -- 224
    Middleton Rick -- 222

    Player Name -- GOALS (1979-84)
    ==================
    Gretzky Wayne -- 356
    Bossy Mike -- 294
    Dionne Marcel -- 256
    Middleton Rick -- 231
    Stoughton Blaine -- 224

    Player Name -- GOALS (1981-86)
    ==================
    Gretzky Wayne -- 375
    Bossy Mike -- 294
    Kurri Jari -- 268
    Goulet Michel -- 263
    Anderson Glenn -- 236

    Player Name -- GOALS (1982-87)
    ==================
    Gretzky Wayne -- 345
    Kurri Jari -- 290
    Goulet Michel -- 270
    Bossy Mike -- 268
    Kerr Tim -- 235

    Player Name -- GOALS (1983-88)
    ==================
    Gretzky Wayne -- 314
    Kurri Jari -- 288
    Goulet Michel -- 261
    Kerr Tim -- 227
    Hawerchuk Dale -- 227

    Player Name -- GOALS (1985-90)
    ==================
    Lemieux Mario -- 302
    Gretzky Wayne -- 248
    Kurri Jari -- 242
    Ciccarelli Dino -- 222
    Yzerman Steve -- 222

    Player Name -- GOALS (1989-94)
    =========================
    Hull Brett -- 339
    Robitaille Luc -- 248
    Yzerman Steve -- 240
    Andreychuk Dave -- 224
    Stevens Kevin -- 219

    Player Name -- GOALS (1990-95)
    =======================
    Hull Brett -- 296
    Robitaille Luc -- 219
    Andreychuk Dave -- 206
    Stevens Kevin -- 205
    Roenick Jeremy -- 200
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  20. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Registered User

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    Robitaille's in easy. No on the rest.

    Recchi won't make it, and he really shouldn't. LeClair's best season are among the best goal-scoring seasons of all-time adjusted for context, but his peak was too short. If Brind'Amour gets another ring, he'll have an argument, but at this point, no. Suter isn't even close.
     
  21. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Egad, pnep. I bow to your mindblowing stat archives. :amazed:
     
  22. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    Where does Dillon rank in goals scored in the 1930's? Or, even more biassed to him, 31-40?

    And, does Cecil Dillon belong in the Hall?
     
  23. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    Player -- Goals (1931-40)
    =====================
    Jackson Busher -- 168
    Conacher Charlie -- 167
    Stewart Nels -- 162
    Dillon Ceece -- 160
    Barry Marty -- 156
     
  24. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    The only one on the list that should get inducted is Robitaille, he is a lock. Recchi might end up in the hall someday like Duff, R.Conacher, B.Bauer, B.Cook. BrindAmour has a chance as well in the long run.
     
  25. kovy1335

    kovy1335 Registered User

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    I think Recchi and Robitaille absolutely make it, no questions asked.

    I think alot of people look at Recchi and say there's something missing because he never had the skill or physical attributes of his peers. But the guy more than made up for it with his work ethic. The trouble with this type of player is that he'll always fly under the radar. No one is going to key in on him because he works so d*mn hard he's going to get his points anyway. That year he scored 123, he might have been the second best forward on the team after Lemieux, but even then no one really noticed. I just don't think that should be held against him. You need the hard-working muckers on any team, so how valuable is it to have one who puts up a ton of points? I think it's more important than alot of people think. Hopefully the hall sees it the same way.

    The others, I'm leaning toward no.
     

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