Dishing the Dirt

[jarek]

It's very simple.. just send the entire team to shadow him and you're all good!

 

[Sturminator]

I recently found an interesting article in which a 1938 experiment with Earl Seibert at forward is discussed. I have no idea how long he remained at forward in that season, but there it is. Also of note is the comment about his skating - needing to "wind up" to reach full speed.

Dreak will also be pleased to learn that Lester Patrick agrees with him on the topic of position switching.

 

[Sturminator]

So, anyone who hasn't even read the article on hockey that William Faulkner wrote for Sports Illustrated in 1955 ought to give it a look. It's kind of great, and he offers possibly the best description of Maurice Richard that has ever been committed to paper.

Here is the full text (mods, I won't be offended if you have to remove this if it violates SI's copywrite - I figured I'd preserve it for our purposes in case the link to their archives ever dies):

The vacant ice looked tired, though it shouldn't have. They told him it had been put down only a few minutes ago following a basketball game, and after the hockey match it would be taken up again to make room for something else. But it looked not expectant but resigned, like the mirror simulating ice in the Christmas store window, not before the miniature fir trees and reindeer and cosy lamplit cottage were arranged upon it, but after they had been dismantled and cleared away.

Then it was filled with motion, speed. To the innocent, who had never seen it before, it seemed discorded and inconsequent, bizarre and paradoxical like the frantic darting of the weightless bugs which run on the surface of stagnant pools. Then it would break, coalesce through a kind of kaleidoscopic whirl like a child's toy, into a pattern, a design almost beautiful, as if an inspired choreographer had drilled a willing and patient and hard-working troupe of dancers—a pattern, design which was trying to tell him something, say something to him urgent and important and true in that second before, already bulging with the motion and the speed, it began to disintegrate and dissolve.

Then he learned to find the puck and follow it. Then the individual players would emerge. They would not emerge like the sweating barehanded behemoths from the troglodyte mass of football, but instead as fluid and fast and effortless as rapier thrusts or lightning—Richard with something of the passionate glittering fatal alien quality of snakes, Geoffrion like an agile ruthless precocious boy who maybe couldn't do anything else but then he didn't need to; and others—the veteran Laprade, still with the know-how and the grace. But he had time too now, or rather time had him, and what remained was no longer expendable that recklessly, heedlessly, successfully; not enough of it left now to buy fresh passion and fresh triumph with.

LIKE THE RAPIER

Excitement: men in rapid, hard, close physical conflict, not just with bare hands, but armed with the knife blades of skates and the hard, fast, deft sticks which could break bones when used right. He had noticed how many women were among the spectators, and for just a moment he thought that perhaps this was why—that here actual male blood could flow, not from the crude impact of a heavier fist but from the rapid and delicate stroke of weapons, which, like the European rapier or the frontier pistol, reduced mere size and brawn to its proper perspective to the passion and the will. But only for a moment because he, the innocent, didn't like that idea either. It was the excitement of speed and grace, with the puck for catalyst, to give it reason, meaning.

He watched it—the figure-darted glare of ice, the concentric tiers rising in sections stipulated by the hand-lettered, names of the individual fanclub idols, vanishing upward into the pall of tobacco smoke trapped by the roof—the roof which stopped and trapped all that intent and tense watching, and concentrated it downward upon the glare of ice frantic and frenetic with motion; until the byproduct of the speed and the motion—their violence—had no chance to exhaust itself upward into space and so leave on the ice only the swift glittering changing pattern. And he thought how perhaps something is happening to sport in America (assuming that by definition sport is something you do yourself, in solitude or not, because it is fun), and that something is the roof we are putting over it and them. Skating, basketball, tennis, track meets and even steeplechasing have moved indoors; football and baseball function beneath covers of arc lights and in time will be rain-and coldproofed too. There still remain the proper working of a fly over trout water or the taking of a rise of birds in front of a dog or the right placing of a bullet in a deer or even a bigger animal which will hurt you if you don't. But not for long: in time that will be indoors too beneath lights and the trapped pall of spectator tobacco, the concentric sections bearing the name and device of the lion or the fish as well as that of the Richard or Geoffrion of the scoped rifle or four-ounce rod.

THE SAME LITTLE BOYS

But (to repeat) not for long, because the innocent did not quite believe that either. We—Americans—like to watch; we like the adrenalic discharge of vicarious excitement or triumph or success. But we like to do also: the discharge of the personal excitement of the triumph and the fear to be had from actually setting the horse at the stone wall or pointing the overcanvased sloop or finding by actual test if you can line up two sights and one buffalo in time. There must have been little boys in that throng too, frantic with the slow excruciating passage of time, panting for the hour when they would be Richard or Geoffrion or Laprade—the same little Negro boys whom the innocent has seen shadow-boxing in front of a photograph of Joe Louis in his own Mississippi town, the same little Norwegian boys he watched staring up the snowless slope of the Holmenkollen jump one July day in the hills above Oslo.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

The best description of Maurice Richard ever? I can't even understand what he's talking about. That's even more flowery than the most flowery passage in The Trail.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm not sure what's the best description of Maurice Richard, but I would guess it's in french.

That guy in the quote took mushrooms though

 

[ImporterExporter]

Thank God somebody else commented on that piece. I instantly finished reading and thought the author was on a major acid trip.

 

[Sturminator]

Meh...you plebeians had probably never heard the name William Faulkner before clicking on this thread.

 

[Elvis P]

Meh...you plebeians had probably never heard the name William Faulkner before clicking on this thread.

Literature is a matter of personal taste. Moby Dick was voted the most boring novel ever by English Professors. Faulkner was great, but there are other writers such as Hemingway and Steinbeck whose work is easier for contemporary readers to enjoy.

 

[Sturminator]

Literature is a matter of personal taste. Moby Dick was voted the most boring novel ever by English Professors. Faulkner was great, but there are other writers such as Hemingway and Steinbeck whose work is easier for contemporary readers to enjoy.

I happen to agree with the Professors' opinion of Moby Dick, and would add The Scarlet Letter and Brave New World to their list of infamy. But Faulkner...he is pretty much the Maurice Richard of English literature: under-appreciated by modern critics, vaguely evil, and unmistakeably great.

 

[Sturminator]

Just stumbled upon a lovely snippet of Gordie Howe talking about his original hockey idol. You'll never guess who:

Oct 9, 1954: The Montreal Gazette:

Most athletes have an early idol, and Gordie Howe's was Ab Welsh, a forward on the old Saskatoon Quakers. "After playing hockey at school, we'd go to the arena to watch the Quakers practice," Howe said recently. "I was nine years old when he gave me a hockey stick. He never gave one to any of the other kids. He saved his cracked or broken sticks for me or the ones whose lie he didn't like. He used a No. 7 lie. That's probably why I use a No. 7 lie now. I watched him and studied his style. He was strictly a position player. He was the Marty Pavelich of the Quakers. I never heard an unkind word said about him. I understand he's working in an oil refinery. He's still my favorite. The first one is always the best."

 

[seventieslord]

Nope, I would not have guessed that!

 

[Dr Pepper]

Never heard of him! Must've been good, though, to impress Gordie.

 

[jarek]

Kudos to MadArcand for translating this.

Source

Right wing Vladimír Martinec spent almost his whole career - save for half a year in Dukla Jihlava in 1978/79 and four years in German Kaufbeuren at the beginning of the 80s - in Pardubice. He was beloved by local fans due to his well-honed talent in finishing, quick wits and improvisation; and together with Jiří Novák and Bohuslav Šťastný he was a part of then very popular line, which helped Pardubice to win the league title in 1973. He stayed loyal to the East-Bohemian town, now he coaches juniors there. He's still active in hockey.

Martinec belonged among the leaders of the famous Czechoslovak generation which was the only team that could match the Red Machine in the 70s, and even managed to dethrone them thrice (1972, 1976 & 1977). The right winger was always part of it and in Katowice in 1976 he was also named the best forward of the tournament.

What made the icon of Tesla Pardubice an elite world-class player were especially his skilled hands, creativity, wits and the gift of improvisation. Thanks to those attributes and his hockey sense he used to be named as the classical exemplar of Czechoslovak hockey school by the experts in his time. And the fans worshiped him.

Extremely cunning forward - no wonder his opponents called him "Fox" - was a true menace of defense. He employed his varied playstyle and unpredictable dekes usually with center Jiří Novák and left wing Bohuslav Šťastný. The line "Marcello, Breadloaf & Bogas" (as they were nicknamed) belonged among the best in the world and was the reason for many successes of Tesla (incl. its first league title in 1973) and the national team.

The 60er Martinec doesn't dawdle on the memories much. "You can't live from that, it's a closed chapter." The famous technical player lived through the successful 80s as a player. "I'd say that the 70s are comparable to the late 90s, when we also won three titles" says Martinec, who was NT assistant coach during the 90s era. "As a player I have been more important than as a coach. It's always down to the players on the ice."

Currently he's junior coach in Pardubice. "I spent the time as I want to. I can't imagine being without hockey. I've been involved in it for quite a long time and it's a part of my life. It's the only thing I learned." said Martinec, who started coaching the juniors about two months ago.

He still plays actively too, playing with "oldies". "We play every week, depending how often is the rink available. We usually lose by now, but if I work up a sweat during it, it's still good." the member of Club of hockey scorers smiles. He's the oldest on the team, along with Bohuslav Šťastný. "Now younger guys that I used to coach go play there."

Vladimír Martinec

Born in Lomnice nad Popelkou on December 22nd 1949. Almost the whole career of the RW - except half a year in Dukla Jihlava (1978/79) and four years in the jersey of German Kaufbeuren (1981- 85) - was spent in Pardubice. He spent 14 seasons in the league, playing 539 games and scoring 343 goals. He donned the NT jersey in 289 games and scored 155 goals. In the years 1972 & 1976-77 he was on the WC winning team. He also helped the team to win silver in Innsbruck OGs 1976 and bronze in Sapporo OGs in 1972. He shined against NHL pros in the 1976 CC and his exceptional skills were rewarded with four Golden Sticks in the years 1973, 1975-76 & 1979. In 1973 he won the league title with Pardubice.

After his retirement as a player he first coached in Germany, then back at home and also coached junior NTs. In january 1997 he became the assistant coach for Ludek Bukač in the NT and stayed with the team also during the reigns of Ivan Hlinka, Slavomír Lener & Josef Augusta. He was part of the Olympic triumph in Nagano in 1998 and helped the NT to three WC golds between 1999 and 2001. As a coach, he led his hometown Pardubice to two league titles. Martinec is a member of the IIHF HOF and currently works as assistant GM of HC Eaton Pardubice.

 

[Sturminator]

Interesting article on Art Ross' legacy as coach and GM in Boston:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=lGcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1418,2050223&hl=en

 

[Johnny Engine]

Not sure if anyone has posted this article in this thread yet.
Of particular interest to me is the section on Luc Robitaille - I had him in last year's draft, and he's one of my favourite players that I've looked into and learned about, because the popular conception of him - "Lucky Luc", doesn't do him justice in the least. The nickname suggests that he was somehow a guy who deflected the puck off his arse 60 times in his career, but anyone who looks closely at him (I'm looking at you, VanIslander, that was a great bio you put togerther), can tell you how sneaky-effective he was down low - a power forward who didn't actually use any power moves, if that makes any sense.

Also of note - a rare serious look at an older Sergei Makarov.

http://www.hockeyshot.com/v/hyperlinks/analyzinggreatskaters.pdf

www.hockeyplayer.com
Analyzing some great skaters
By Robby Glantz
Printer friendly page
From time to time I like to discuss the skating strengths of current NHL players. We do this to give you a
different perspective while watching these players perform, one that will help you improve your own skating
by better understanding what makes these players move so fluidly on the ice.
Joey Juneau
Blinding speed is what comes to mind when you think of the young star of the Washington Capitals.
However, he has the turning and stop-on-a-dime ability to go along with his speed, and that keeps
opponents back on their heels. What to look for: Juneau has such an impressive kneebend. His knees are
bent at the perfect 90†angle in all the maneuvers he performs in a game. Focus on his ability to keep his
body position low and his weight centered directly over his skates. In the forward stride, he has the great
ability to thrust his entire edge against the ice, rolling from the back of the blade to the front, to attain his
explosive speed.
Sergei Makarov
Had Makarov played in the NHL during his prime he would definitely have been considered one of the
league’s all-time greats. But even today, his excellent skating and play-making skills are quite evident as he
continues to be a leader on the Dallas Stars. What to look for: Makarov is a smaller player who uses his size
to his advantage. He has a tremendously low center of gravity and superb balance, which makes him
difficult to knock off of his feet. Notice how Makarov skates with a bowlegged style. Keeping the knees
turned outward is vital for being able to push your legs in the proper direction when skating. Also, he keeps a
very wide base when making lateral (side-to-side) moves, which keeps defenseman guessing as to which
direction he will be going.
Mike Modano
Modano is the marquee attraction for the Dallas Stars. He is one of those players who plays the game and
skates so smoothly that he appears to be moving effortlessly. However, it is excellent technique and
Yzerman: Strong and consistent skater.
fundamentals, combined with hard work, that are behind his great skills. What to look for: Modano is a taller
player who uses his long stride to full advantage. By fully extending his leg on every stride, he is able to
cover more distance and gain speed without having to use as many pushes as the average player. Modano
also has a great ability to explode wide on an opponent because of his excellent crossover technique. Notice
how he remains square to the ice with his upper body even (keeping his inside shoulder up) while on an
extreme angle with his lower body. This balance is what gives him the ability to perform such fast crossovers.
Luc Robitaille
So his straight-ahead speed is not that of a Paul Coffey. How is it, then, that Robitaille can constantly beat
defenseman to the spot, putting himself in position to score? For starters, Luc has great balance and knee
bend. And rather than going to the front of the net and standing on the flats of his skates, Luc always
attempts to plant himself squarely and powerfully over his edges. He uses his edges masterfully (at the
proper 45° angle) to grip the ice, and he is very tough to move.
One of the most underrated aspects of Luc’s game is also his work in the corners and along the boards. The
next time you watch a Rangers game, focus on how Luc gets lower than the checker when scrapping for the
puck. Try and see how he uses his edges when he is battling along the boards, rolling them deeply into the
ice in order to ward off the defender and still make a play. And Luc uses his outside edges as well as
anyone in the league; he can turn very quickly and has the ability to stop on a dime.
Jaromir Jagr
The great Czech winger for the Pittsburgh Penguins is what I would describe as deceptively fast. He doesn’t
have to move his legs 1000 miles per hour to generate speed. Instead, he uses full extension on every stride
and seems never to waste a push. Also, for a big player, Jagr is tremendously sturdy and has super balance.
He accomplishes this by using proper techniques that most big players seem unwilling to attempt. That is,
he keeps excellent knee bend throughout the game so he can best utilize his strong legs and, in turn, lower
his center of gravity.
If you think back to Pittsburgh’s last Stanley Cup run, you undoubtedly remember some of Jagr’s dazzling
plays and moves. In analyzing slow-motion videotape of Jagr, it’s amazing to see the strength of his ankles
and how effectively he uses edges by putting all his body weight over them—driving around defenders and
making them look as if they’re standing still.
Steve Yzerman
Yzerman, like Robitaille, is also so consistent and strong over his skates that we tend to take his exceptional
skills for granted. Yzerman can turn a defenseman inside out, perhaps better than anyone in the league.
Whereas most players feel more comfortable going to their backhand, Yzerman is extremely strong at
making his “skating†moves to the forehand. He has the great ability to make a tight turn on an extreme
outside edge (halfway to the ice) and come out of it without losing any speed by crossing over and springing
forward onto the inside edge of his toes. He gets that extra burst of acceleration, and manages to control the
puck as well.
Yzerman also has the ability to shoot hard and accurately while going full speed. He keeps excellent body
control, and uses his edges to drive off of, and then to land on during the follow-through—which is perfect
shooting technique.
Hopefully, these illustrations of the skills of some of the NHL’s superstars will help you understand that you
don’t have to be the fastest player on your team to be an effective player. Likewise, while having flat-out
speed is important, and certainly one of our goals, you don’t have to be the fastest skater to be the best
“power skater.â€
Work hard on all aspects of your skating because each one is vital to the game. But don’t be surprised when
you hear people calling the local talk shows and saying things like, “Sure he scores a lot of points, but he
doesn’t skate very fast.â€
I’ll tell you this much—I’d sure like to skate as “slow†as these guys!

Robby Glantz, power skating coach for the Los Angeles Kings, Swedish Champions Malmö, and the
German National Team, conducts skating programs throughout North America and Europe.

 

[ImporterExporter]

From my research during the single season ATD: Frank Foyston was definitely a LW during his 16-17 PCHA MVP season....

Well judging by the couple of papers i dug up from that year's Cup final vs Montreal, he was on the left wing: Game 3 from Montreal Gazette.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19170324&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Page 20. Notice it only says "wing" but you can see Didier Pitre is listed on a different wing than Foyston and we know Pitre was a RW so naturally i would take this as Foyston being on the left.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=aDl3D7KC1E4C&dat=19170327&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Here is one (Montreal Daily Mail) of the clinching game 4 which lists them the same way Pitre opposing Walker and Laviolette across from Foyston.

Found 5 more games from Spokane papers all listing Foyston as a left wing directly from the 16-17 season. It's pretty clear he was a LW for much, if not all the season. There are 2 major Spokane papers available in the archives on google. I'm trying to dig up stuff from Vancouver, Portland and Seattle if possible.

I'd like to add these findings + the other ones in the post above to the archive thread here so we have a definitive answer on position for Foyston during an MVP campaign.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=0klj8wIChNAC&dat=19170106&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=0klj8wIChNAC&dat=19170131&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=ddB7do2jUx8C&dat=19170203&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=ddB7do2jUx8C&dat=19170224&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=ddB7do2jUx8C&dat=19170228&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

[ImporterExporter]

http://www.quanthockey.com/Distributions/CareerLengthGP.php

I wonder what the average length of ATD players careers are? MLD?

Might be interesting to redefine what we determine as "average" when looking into metrics like VsX. Considering we draft upwards of 1000 players, i don't think 7 and 10 years would be the mean.....

This graph i believe compiles all NHL seasons from the inception of the league.

 

[jarek]

So apparently Hod Stuart absolutely hated the referees in the IHL.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=uUgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1523,4367834&hl=en

 

[VanIslander]

Luc Robitaille - I had him in last year's draft, and he's one of my favourite players that I've looked into and learned about, because the popular conception of him - "Lucky Luc", doesn't do him justice in the least. The nickname suggests that he was somehow a guy who deflected the puck off his arse 60 times in his career, but anyone who looks closely at him (I'm looking at you, VanIslander, that was a great bio you put together), can tell you how sneaky-effective he was down low - a power forward who didn't actually use any power moves, if that makes any sense.

Indeed. Thanks for the cheer out. I was there and recall how "Lucky" Luc worked hard and QUICKLY to get into the right position again and again (and I hated the Kings - as I still do - with a passion).

It's funny in a way because one of my fav players Marleau is equally adept at knowing where to be when to play the puck! Neither of them played the body but anticipated the play and put themselves wher the puck would most likely be and then play it awesomely, deftly and more subtlely effective than flashy!
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59213943&postcount=55

 

[seventieslord]

http://www.quanthockey.com/Distributions/CareerLengthGP.php

I wonder what the average length of ATD players careers are? MLD?

Might be interesting to redefine what we determine as "average" when looking into metrics like VsX. Considering we draft upwards of 1000 players, i don't think 7 and 10 years would be the mean.....

This graph i believe compiles all NHL seasons from the inception of the league.

The recent replies in this thread reminded me that I meant to reply to this months ago.

This is completely irrelevant. I know that your position is you wish we would all judge a player based on a smaller sample size than we usually do - whether that's three seasons, or two, or one, we might never truly know - but this argument does nothing to sway the mindset in your direction. This is based on the average of all players to ever play a single game, and those aren't the kinds of players we're drafting in an ATD/MLD/AAA draft. The average career length for those types of players is much longer, because they're much better than average players.

If you used a data set that included not every single player to play a game in the NHL, but something more like: "every forward to ever score a point per game at least once, every forward to place in the top-20 in goals, assists or points at least once, every defenseman who ever topped 30 points, every player who ever led an NHL team in scoring, every player who ever received at least one vote for a major NHL award or all-star team, every player who ever played in an all-star game, every player who ever served as the captain of an NHL team, every player who ever won multiple stanley cups no matter their role, every player who ever finished top-10 in playoff scoring, every defenseman who's ever been a #1 for their team twice or more, top-2 four times or more, or top-3 six times or more, and every player who was statistically among the top-10 penalty killers in any NHL season" - then you'd have a pool of skaters that approximately represents all the players who might warrant selection in an ATD/MLD/AAA draft, and if you analyzed their career lengths, you would find that they played a lot longer than the median of 4 seasons, or the average of 5.65. Very few, if any, retired players would be below those numbers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The recent replies in this thread reminded me that I meant to reply to this months ago.

This is completely irrelevant. I know that your position is you wish we would all judge a player based on a smaller sample size than we usually do - whether that's three seasons, or two, or one, we might never truly know - but this argument does nothing to sway the mindset in your direction. This is based on the average of all players to ever play a single game, and those aren't the kinds of players we're drafting in an ATD/MLD/AAA draft. The average career length for those types of players is much longer, because they're much better than average players.

If you used a data set that included not every single player to play a game in the NHL, but something more like: "every forward to ever score a point per game at least once, every forward to place in the top-20 in goals, assists or points at least once, every defenseman who ever topped 30 points, every player who ever led an NHL team in scoring, every player who ever received at least one vote for a major NHL award or all-star team, every player who ever played in an all-star game, every player who ever served as the captain of an NHL team, every player who ever won multiple stanley cups no matter their role, every player who ever finished top-10 in playoff scoring, every defenseman who's ever been a #1 for their team twice or more, top-2 four times or more, or top-3 six times or more, and every player who was statistically among the top-10 penalty killers in any NHL season" - then you'd have a pool of skaters that approximately represents all the players who might warrant selection in an ATD/MLD/AAA draft, and if you analyzed their career lengths, you would find that they played a lot longer than the median of 4 seasons, or the average of 5.65. Very few, if any, retired players would be below those numbers.

For a rough estimate, just look at the average career lengths of players drafted in the last ATD (separated by approximate era)

 

[BenchBrawl]

11-12 years would be my guess for the average of ATD players.

Seems like a tedious thing to calculate.

 

[jarek]

Ahahaha..

A goalie got so fed up getting scored on that he tried a rush himself to change it up.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KRoqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4IUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2266,571732

 

[Iceman]

Ahahaha..

A goalie got so fed up getting scored on that he tried a rush himself to change it up.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KRoqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4IUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2266,571732

Patrick Roy

 

[jarek]

Charlie Querrie was an *******, which might partially explain why Cameron took issue with him:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BkQuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kdkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6556,675100

It wasn't quite cold enough to keep Charlie Querrie quiet. Charlie abused everyone near the Toronto bench and finally threatened to get into the game himself.

Charlie Querrie landed down at the Arena Saturday morning and paid his compliments to officers of the Ottawa club. He declined to apologize for a lot of rough things he said in the Toronto papers about President Dey and Secretary Gorman, but offered, through Percy Hambly and Jack Adams, to back them up.