Dishing the Dirt

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,263
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South Korea
Some very interesting picks. All we've talked about in depth drafts (MLD, AAA, Double-A, etc... I myself have picked and provided pick announcement info on Farrell, Gingras and Gardner) but some less appreciated/understood around here. They could use good bios. There's info on them here and there.

Lester Patrick:

RW: Arthur Farrell

J.E. Abern - Halifax Herald:

D: Alan Davidson

Tommy Gorman:

RW: Scott Davidson

Sandy Hook:

RW: Scotty Davidson

Art Ross:

F: Tony Gingras

W.J. Morrison - Montreal Gazette:

(Old)
G: Mike Merritt
RW: Jim Gardner
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Davidson is revered heavily and then he was I believe KIA in WWI a variety of people say he's among the best they've ever seen. But he really only has 2 NHA seasons
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,129
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Regina, SK
So it appears these are all the guys named more than once:

Tommy Phillips 10
Stuart 8
Cleghorn 6
Vezina 6
Taylor - 5
Bowie - 4
Nighbor - 4
Davidson - 4
Gerard 4
Lalonde - 3
Lesueur 3
Dye 3
Simpson 2
Benedict 2
Boucher 2
Smith 2
Hay 2
Lehman 2
McGee 2

Guys named once:

RW: George Richardson
RW: Arthur Farrell
G: John Ross Roach
RW: Dubbie Kerr
C: Mickey MacKay
C: Billy Burch
LW: Cy Dennenay
G: Mike Merritt
D: Mike Grant
D: Harvey Pulford
RW: Jim Gardner
LW: Harry Watson
F. Frederickson,
C: Duke Keats
D: Art Ross
RW: Aurel Joliat
LW: Joe Malone
D: Ernie Johnson
G: Paddy Moran
D: Si Griffis
D: Lester Patrick
F: Tony Gingras
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,129
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Regina, SK
LW: Tommy Phillips is the near unanimous choice and with good reason. Not only was he an outstanding player, there's no one else worth naming! George Hay was making a name for himself by then; it's worth mentioning.

RW: If you believe these lists, Scotty Davidson was the best RW of all-time as of 1925, with Alf Smith getting some love and Babe Dye up-and-coming. Five others were named once, three of whom weren't right wingers. The list makers probably knew this and were just trying to fit on players they otherwise couldn't.

What to make of this? Not much that we don't already know. Davidson was a pretty good player when he played - he must have really passed the eye test for these guys. But at the same time, do I believe he was actually better than Didier Pitre, Punch Broadbent, Jack Walker, Jack Darragh or Harry Hyland, who had all played full careers by 1925? Or even Harry Oliver, who had played much of his prime? Or even Eddie Oatman? (to say nothing of Smith and Dye, who actually received votes) No, I don't. Not on a career basis for sure, and I'm pretty sure not at their respective bests either. I can only assume the votes cast for Davidson were meant as tributes to a fallen soldier and hero. Davidson, to me, still looks like an above average NHA player for two seasons.

C: Taylor, Bowie and Nighbor all top the list, followed closely by Lalonde, then by McGee. This, more than anything, matches ATD/HOH canon. In fact, if you assume two things - 1) that Nighbor, with six seasons still to play, had not completely cemented his reputation, and 2) that in 1925 they understandably lacked the historical perspective we have 90 years later to judge players of Bowie and McGee's generation by a slightly tougher standard - then you could say their assessment of the best centers of the day perfectly matches ours.

D: You've got Stuart with 8 mentions, Cleghorn with 6, Gerard with 4, Simpson and Boucher with 2, and then many of the usual suspects got a vote; in fact, almost no one was left out. Our HOH list has pre-merger defensemen as follows: Cleghorn, Gerard, Stuart, Johnson, Boucher, Cameron, Patrick, Pulford. Stuart is very understandable because: 1) he actually was a very good player, 2) he died young and gets some of the same benefit as Davidson, 3) same lack of historical perspective that might affect Bowie/McGee relative to newer, superior centers, and 4) they all got to name two defensemen so unlike C/LW/RW/D, there was room to name an old guy and a new guy. Simpson with 2 votes is a little surprising, but keep in mind he was in the middle of his WCHL heyday at the time. Most snubbed players? I'd select two for this honour. Johnson should have more than a vote. If Simpson/Boucher have 2 and Gerard 4, I'd have liked to have seen Johnson with 3. And Cameron not getting a single vote when Grant, Ross and Griffis each got one seems a little off.

G: Vezina the clear winner with 6, followed by the best eye test goalie of the previous generation, LeSueur. Benedict and Lehman with two votes each, with Roach, Moran and the completely-out-of-left-field Mike Merritt earning one vote. Vezina was by most accounts, the best of his time, however, it was not unanimous over Benedict, even with the "benefit" of an early tragic death. I'd use the "historical perspective" excuse for Benedict not getting as many votes as his predecessor Lesueur, but also one was the best of his generation and one was 2nd, putting him at a clear disadvantage. I'm more interested in who didn't pick up the last few remaining votes: Holmes shut out in favour of Lehman, and Lesueur cleaning up on Moran, Hern and Hutton, with only one defector going for Moran. These votes very closely match what we now know as canon, which makes me happy.
 
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ResilientBeast

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See but discussing even Pre-NHA centers Bowie and McGee were seen by these men and in some cases played with or against them...so to pump my own guys tires here for a bit I think the fact that Bowie is right there behind Lalonde, Taylor and Nighbor is a huge ringing endorsement of his abilities. Sure in hindsight we can critique all we want about the league size and strength but the fact is people who were alive to see he play thought he was the greatest center they've ever seen.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
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See but discussing even Pre-NHA centers Bowie and McGee were seen by these men and in some cases played with or against them...so to pump my own guys tires here for a bit I think the fact that Bowie is right there behind Lalonde, Taylor and Nighbor is a huge ringing endorsement of his abilities. Sure in hindsight we can critique all we want about the league size and strength but the fact is people who were alive to see he play thought he was the greatest center they've ever seen.

Nobody questions Bowie's skill level.
 

Iceman

Registered User
Jun 9, 2014
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Just to fill the thread with inappropriate randomness.

Here are two pictures of Rocket Richard and Butch Bouchard out camping and fishing from a book. :laugh:

eU1Nd1x.png


iUviIhC.png
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
Just to fill the thread with inappropriate randomness.

Here are two pictures of Rocket Richard and Butch Bouchard out camping and fishing from a book. :laugh:

eU1Nd1x.png


iUviIhC.png

That's funny. Who knew Maurice Richard was capable of smiling?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
The Globe Mar 9 said:
The Ottawa Free Press picks the following as Canada's greatest seven ; Goal - Hauge (Ottawa) Point - Pulford (Ottawa); Cover Kennedy (Wanderers) Rover - Bowie (Victorias); Center - McGee (Ottawa); Right - Alf Smith (Ottawa); Left - Phillips (Kenora) (

If you have one of these players here's a freebie :laugh:
 

Iceman

Registered User
Jun 9, 2014
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Anyone have any tidbits on Emile "Butch" Bouchard? Compiling a BIO for him, he hasn't gotten one yet after all these years so I thought I'd do one, but it feels a bit thin right now. At the same time, he is a strong at what he does but other than that it's not like he is the most versatile player to have step on the ice.
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,880
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Anyone have any tidbits on Emile "Butch" Bouchard? Compiling a BIO for him, he hasn't gotten one yet after all these years so I thought I'd do one, but it feels a bit thin right now.

Don't have much, but since his jersey got retired somewhat recently, there's probably a lot of quotation to be add from players commenting on this, or on his death, which is also somewhat recent.

A name to keep in mind is radio host and ex-NHL referee Ron Fournier, who pushed hard, disturbingly so for Butch Bouchard's number to be retired.So maybe some googling with those key words might get some nice articles with quotations.

Got some quick quotes here:

Emile Butch Bouchard himself said:
“I was a determined, enthusiastic, young fellow in those days. That’s what you need to make a success in life. You work hard, you’re enthusiastic, and very disciplined at your game.” – Emile “Butch” Bouchard

http://www.habsworld.net/2008/03/the-enshrined-habs-emile-butch-bouchard/

Elmer Lach said:
“Dick Irvin Sr. used to go to the Rocket and tell him that Butch Bouchard, our best defenseman was betting he wouldn’t get a goal in practice, then Irvin would go to Butch and tell him that Rocket said he was going to get a hatful against Butch’s pairing. Jeez, how they used to work against each other.”

http://www.habsworld.net/2008/03/the-enshrined-habs-emile-butch-bouchard/

Dickie Moore said:
"Big Butch was the leader, he was kind and generous with the young players"

Pierre Bouchard said:
I always noticed the way people spoke to him with such respect when I was young," said his son Pierre Bouchard.

Jean Beliveau said:
"When I joined the Canadiens, Emile "Butch" Bouchard was on his last legs, both at the blue line and as our team captain. I only played with Emile for two years, and in the last year he didn't play all that much.Still he was well respected throughout the league for his strength. One night, a fracas started in Detroit and was right to the Red Wings' bench, opened the door, and chased a player through it - unheard-of behavior then, as now. Nobody on the Detroit team dared do anything, and they certainly had their share of tough customers. The only other defenceman of that era who matched Butch in terms of strength was the late, great Tim Horton.

"As a captain, Butch took great pains to listen to everyone's opinion to any issue, and served as a model for my stint as team captain in the 1960s."

I can translate this later for you (this is more about before his NHL career, as the article is from 1941 and "presents" Bouchard to the public):

1941_un_montralais_avec_le_canadien1941.jpg

1942_le_roc_de_gibraltar.jpg


http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2008/10/who-were-habs-butch-bouchard-and-elmer.html
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,880
13,671
By the way guys, if you find material in french that intrigues you, you can always ask for my opinion and I can check it out quick see if there's anything there.

If there's valuable stuff I can translate it too.

Even I haven't really capitalize on this, but there's a lot of french material about hockey history.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
By the way guys, if you find material in french that intrigues you, you can always ask for my opinion and I can check it out quick see if there's anything there.

If there's valuable stuff I can translate it too.

Even I haven't really capitalize on this, but there's a lot of french material about hockey history.

As there should be, given the very rich history of hockey in Montreal.
 

Iceman

Registered User
Jun 9, 2014
10,640
2,024
By the way guys, if you find material in french that intrigues you, you can always ask for my opinion and I can check it out quick see if there's anything there.

If there's valuable stuff I can translate it too.

Even I haven't really capitalize on this, but there's a lot of french material about hockey history.

Thanks, I appreciate it.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,617
6,878
Orillia, Ontario
By the way guys, if you find material in french that intrigues you, you can always ask for my opinion and I can check it out quick see if there's anything there.

If there's valuable stuff I can translate it too.

Even I haven't really capitalize on this, but there's a lot of french material about hockey history.

Can you please translate every hockey related article from roughly 1901 to 2015?
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
3,516
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Edmonton, KY
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,129
7,215
Regina, SK
I don't think anyone has ever found this yet. 1925 NHL 1st and 2nd All-Star Team picked by the Hamilton Spectator (link: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=PLWDSxI5WzYC&dat=19250112&printsec=frontpage&hl=en, page 14):

1st Team

G: Vezina
D: Boucher, Cleghorn
C: Burch
RW: Green
LW: Joliat

2nd Team:

G: Forbes
D: Coutu, Langlois
C: Morenz
RW: Dye
LW: Green

Maybe a little homer with the two Shorty Green picks.

That would be Shorty at RW and Red at LW.

Nice find. Certainly worth looking at in the all-stars project.
 

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