Dave Nonis not a big fan of new free agency

[hockeytown9321]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=182410&hubname=nhl

I would take his comments with a grain of salt though. I'm sure underneath it all, he's just a Red Wings' fan who is mad they can't go out and buy championships anymore.

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[Ted Hoffman]

 

[SwOOsh*]

I agree that free agency at 25 is too low, but the players had to receive something for agreeing to the salary cap.

One thing I wish they would implement is a homegrown discount. What I mean by this is if the team drafted the player (and are developing them) they would receive a certain percentage off the cap hit. Say 5% the first year and have it increase every year by a certain percentage. This way teams would be able to hold on to players they developed more easily and have an incentive for keeping them.

 

[kurt]

The GMs can't have it both ways. Pittsburg can sign Crosby when he's a UFA, they'll just have to make sacrifices elsewhere. And sure, Pittsburg is paying "development dollars to develop Crosby,", but there's no way Crosby is earning his market value. They're receiving his services at a considerable discount. They should be happy they get to enjoy the entry level restrictions as long as they can.

 

[Hawker14]

well if nonis is unable to adapt to the realities of the cba then perhaps tambellini should've been given the gm role.

it's not like nonis is the only one who operates under this system, and newsflash for him, the canucks get to sign free agents from other teams. it's not a one way street.

every team develops prospects, and watching the moose for several seasons, the canucks don't exactly have a more impressive history for developing prospects than others. i don't really see what the issue is.

he's bang on about the schedule though.

 

[The Joker*]

Whether you like him or hate him, he still makes some good points. As well, the scheduling is Pejorative Slured.

 

[Respect Your Edler]

well if nonis is unable to adapt to the realities of the cba then perhaps tambellini should've been given the gm role.

it's not like nonis is the only one who operates under this system, and newsflash for him, the canucks get to sign free agents from other teams. it's not a one way street.

every team develops prospects, and watching the moose for several seasons, the canucks don't exactly have a more impressive history for developing prospects than others. i don't really see what the issue is.

he's bang on about the schedule though.

....

I think you missed the point of what he saying. He's not saying all this because he dreads looking Kesler or Bourdon to UFA. The Canucks were also never the NYR or Detroits of the league. He has valid concerns. A team get dimished returns on its drafting right now. The schedule is also boring as hell. I'll watch division games, but I hardly get excited about them. Hell, Crosby won't make his 1st stop to Vancouver until next year.

 

[Enstrom39]

The GMs can't have it both ways. Pittsburg can sign Crosby when he's a UFA, they'll just have to make sacrifices elsewhere. And sure, Pittsburg is paying "development dollars to develop Crosby,", but there's no way Crosby is earning his market value. They're receiving his services at a considerable discount. They should be happy they get to enjoy the entry level restrictions as long as they can.

Pittsburgh's development costs for Crosby: "Sidney what number do you want on your NHL jersey."

I'm sorry, but nobody spent much "developing" Crosby. He made his junior team money, and he made the Penguins money from day one. Crosby was never a long term investment, he was a short term asset that produced revenue.

Now you could convince me that the Penguins have less incentive to develop their later picks, but throwng out Crosby's name is a huge red herring.

A rational NHL club might decide to spend less money on scouting and development with free agency at 25. But its not like young guys are not going to play in the AHL and try to get better. I think the development angle is overplayed.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

The GMs can't have it both ways. Pittsburg can sign Crosby when he's a UFA, they'll just have to make sacrifices elsewhere. And sure, Pittsburg is paying "development dollars to develop Crosby,", but there's no way Crosby is earning his market value. They're receiving his services at a considerable discount. They should be happy they get to enjoy the entry level restrictions as long as they can.

Since when is there a team in Pittsburg? Didn't know there was a big hockey market in Kansas...

Now Pittsburgh on the other hand, that's a different story. I'm pretty sure they do have a team. And for the record, the last time I checked Nonis doesn't and wasn't speaking for Pittsburgh. Stop making it sound like someone in Pittsburgh was making this complaint, because that's simply not true.

 

[Dolemite]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=182410&hubname=nhl

I would take his comments with a grain of salt though. I'm sure underneath it all, he's just a Red Wings' fan who is mad they can't go out and buy championships anymore.

De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[SJeasy]

The subject is interesting because so many are predicting increased movement with the lowering of the UFA age. However, we are all seeing GMs sign players to long, expensive contracts and we are seeing most teams edge closer to the upper limit. Each year, some of the expensive contracts will expire or some players retire, but those same teams will either have to resign the same player or part with some of the large sum for lesser players who are due for increase. I do see a possibility of a smaller market for elite players as fewer teams are able to bid for their services. GMs who want the elite talent of other teams will have to plan their cap space; I don't see many GMs looking long term.

The other question I have is: What is the value of free agency except to manipulate the distribution of a finite pot of money? Previously, the value was to increase the overall remuneration for services in the league.

 

[Pepper]

The system works just fine. The current CBA prevents teams from sucking for seven years like Pens did allowing them to hoard high picks.

Pens can still sign Crosby to max number, they can't be outbid by any other team. If Crosby wants to leave the team, it's not the fault of CBA but the team itself.

Case closed.

 

[GSC2k2*]

The system works just fine. The current CBA prevents teams from sucking for seven years like Pens did allowing them to hoard high picks.

Pens can still sign Crosby to max number, they can't be outbid by any other team. If Crosby wants to leave the team, it's not the fault of CBA but the team itself.

Case closed.

Tremendous post.

 

[alanschu]

The system works just fine. The current CBA prevents teams from sucking for seven years like Pens did allowing them to hoard high picks.

Pens can still sign Crosby to max number, they can't be outbid by any other team. If Crosby wants to leave the team, it's not the fault of CBA but the team itself.

Case closed.

This statement would make sense if, you know, the pens actually sucked for seven years.

But yeah, I'm sure they were intentionally losing games (and fans, and money) so that they could secure some high draft picks.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

The system works just fine. The current CBA prevents teams from sucking for seven years like Pens did allowing them to hoard high picks.

Pens can still sign Crosby to max number, they can't be outbid by any other team. If Crosby wants to leave the team, it's not the fault of CBA but the team itself.

Case closed.

yes, because NHL teams set out their goals each season to get the highest draft pick possible.

 

[Pepper]

This statement would make sense if, you know, the pens actually sucked for seven years.

But yeah, I'm sure they were intentionally losing games (and fans, and money) so that they could secure some high draft picks.

The point is that the new CBA makes it hard for teams to hoard young talent. That creates parity, parity creates more entertaining games and that leads to more interesting league.

Teams with good GMs will do better than teams with bad GMs because bad GMs can't patch up their bad GMing with big payroll.

 

[discostu]

I didn't hear Nonis complaining about the lowered free agency age when it allowed him to trade for the franchise goalie that the Canucks have been waiting for. Without that lowered UFA age, Florida holds onto Luongo, taking him to arbitration each year if that's what is required.

Personally, I like the idea of lowered free agency, even without the cap. I always had a problem under the old system, with players getting overpaid or underpaid depending on the stage of their career. Now, a player's salary has less to do with his free agency status (it still has an impact, but not as great as it was before) and more to do with their talent level.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

The system works just fine. The current CBA prevents teams from sucking for seven years like Pens did allowing them to hoard high picks.

Pens can still sign Crosby to max number, they can't be outbid by any other team. If Crosby wants to leave the team, it's not the fault of CBA but the team itself.

Case closed.

I'm not sure what "seven years" you are talking about...

Let's take a look back why don't we:
1988-1989: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1989-1990: Missed playoffs.
1990-1991: Won Stanley Cup
1991-1992: Won Stanley Cup
1992-1993: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1993-1994: Lost in Eastern Conference Quarterfinals
1994-1995: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1995-1996: Lost in Eastern Conference Finals
1996-1997: Lost in Eastern Conference Quarterfinals
1997-1998: Lost in Eastern Conference Quarterfinals
1998-1999: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1999-2000: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
2000-2001: Lost in Eastern Conference Finals
2001-2002: 12th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.
2002-2003: 14th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.
2003-2004: 15th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.
2004-2005: Lockout.
2005-2006: 15th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.

Looks to me like 4 seasons. Wow. Someone better tell the Islanders, Rangers, Flyers, Thrashers, Panthers, Lightning, Predators, Black Hawks, Blue Jackets, Canucks, Oilers, Flames, and Kings that they were hoarding high draft picks when they all also missed the playoffs at least 4 straight years at some point between 1988 and 2006.

I love the people who try to use the logic that if you lose consistently you are hoarding high draft picks. Well, what about when you make the playoffs consistently? That must mean that you are getting pretty low draft picks, right? When you win consistently eventually the talent you draft and develop will be of a lesser quality based on draft pick (using your logic). Throw in the fact that you eventually have to pay the those players better players that you drafted and developed and who helped you make the playoffs 11 straight years. Obviously most teams could not keep them all (unless you were one of a few teams in the league). Add that to the consistently lower draft picks and... Oh wait... Yes, that's right... You end up with a pretty bad team for a while... Until... Wait again... Yes, I got it!... Your team gets better! Amazing! Works like that for every sport that has a reverse order draft. It promotes a cyclical league.

I would encourage people to revisit history a little before making ignorant posts about a team. We love our Pens and we're getting pretty sick of people who don't have a memory from prior to the year 2000 continually trashing them. We have had 4 miserable seasons in a row. Obviously (see above) we're not the only ones who have. However, not too many of those same teams also made the playoffs 11 straight years either.

 

[Pepper]

Hey, the point was not about Pens, it was about parity. 4 years or 7 years, point still remains. They traded their stars for extra picks and drafted craploads of good talent.

 

[Burgs]

Care to tell us what extra picks the Pens got from trading their stars? Do you know anything about that club at all?

 

[Pepper]

Care to tell us what extra picks the Pens got from trading their stars? Do you know anything about that club at all?

You didn't get any picks for Kovalev, Straka, Jagr etc? If that's the case, my bad.

Doesn't change my point in any way though.

 

[Hawker14]

I'm not sure what "seven years" you are talking about...

Let's take a look back why don't we:
1988-1989: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1989-1990: Missed playoffs.
1990-1991: Won Stanley Cup
1991-1992: Won Stanley Cup
1992-1993: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1993-1994: Lost in Eastern Conference Quarterfinals
1994-1995: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1995-1996: Lost in Eastern Conference Finals
1996-1997: Lost in Eastern Conference Quarterfinals
1997-1998: Lost in Eastern Conference Quarterfinals
1998-1999: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
1999-2000: Lost in Eastern Conference Semifinals
2000-2001: Lost in Eastern Conference Finals
2001-2002: 12th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.
2002-2003: 14th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.
2003-2004: 15th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.
2004-2005: Lockout.
2005-2006: 15th in Eastern Conference. Missed playoffs.

Looks to me like 4 seasons. Wow. Someone better tell the Islanders, Rangers, Flyers, Thrashers, Panthers, Lightning, Predators, Black Hawks, Blue Jackets, Canucks, Oilers, Flames, and Kings that they were hoarding high draft picks when they all also missed the playoffs at least 4 straight years at some point between 1988 and 2006.

I love the people who try to use the logic that if you lose consistently you are hoarding high draft picks. Well, what about when you make the playoffs consistently? That must mean that you are getting pretty low draft picks, right? When you win consistently eventually the talent you draft and develop will be of a lesser quality based on draft pick (using your logic). Throw in the fact that you eventually have to pay the those players better players that you drafted and developed and who helped you make the playoffs 11 straight years. Obviously most teams could not keep them all (unless you were one of a few teams in the league). Add that to the consistently lower draft picks and... Oh wait... Yes, that's right... You end up with a pretty bad team for a while... Until... Wait again... Yes, I got it!... Your team gets better! Amazing! Works like that for every sport that has a reverse order draft. It promotes a cyclical league.

I would encourage people to revisit history a little before making ignorant posts about a team. We love our Pens and we're getting pretty sick of people who don't have a memory from prior to the year 2000 continually trashing them. We have had 4 miserable seasons in a row. Obviously (see above) we're not the only ones who have. However, not too many of those same teams also made the playoffs 11 straight years either.

i think the thing alot of fans around the league see is that the pens traded jagr, a 29 year old reigning nhl scoring leader, for a bunch of players who don't belong in the same breath as him.

we all know pittsburgh has/had financial pressures, but with jagr i'm wagering few fans would predict the pens to have been a lottery team in '03, '04 and '06. the pens certainly got very lucky in the lottery itself, but with jagr would they really have been in that position in the first place ?

fleury, malkin, and staal can be directly linked imo, to the pens moving jagr for next to nothing in comparable value.

add in the fact that pittsburgh is the luckiest city in the nhl to win crosby, and i'd say the perception is skewered for many fans who only see all these top prospects with the pens and presume crosby is in pittsburgh due to the pens being a bad team as well.

 

[GSC2k2*]

You didn't get any picks for Kovalev, Straka, Jagr etc? If that's the case, my bad.

Doesn't change my point in any way though.

ALL of this is entirely BESIDE what I saw to be your main point, Pepper. As I read it, your point was that lower free agency works the same for everyone. You may - underline MAY - lose your stars earlier, but you can obtain those of other teams earlier as well. This is spot on, of course.

Can we please put aside the bickering about how many years the Pens have sucked? That is not the point. The original point was Pepper's comprehensive rebuttal to Nonis' ridiculous position.

This is not about the Penguins.

 

[Hasbro]

Would he rather be back working at the trailer park?

 

[Clarence Beeks]

i think the thing alot of fans around the league see is that the pens traded jagr, a 29 year old reigning nhl scoring leader, for a bunch of players who don't belong in the same breath as him.

we all know pittsburgh has/had financial pressures, but with jagr i'm wagering few fans would predict the pens to have been a lottery team in '03, '04 and '06. the pens certainly got very lucky in the lottery itself, but with jagr would they really have been in that position in the first place ?

fleury, malkin, and staal can be directly linked imo, to the pens moving jagr for next to nothing in comparable value.

add in the fact that pittsburgh is the luckiest city in the nhl to win crosby, and i'd say the perception is skewered for many fans who only see all these top prospects with the pens and presume crosby is in pittsburgh due to the pens being a bad team as well.

They couldn't afford to re-sign Jagr. They traded him for prospects. Obviously that didn't turn out very well. However, since he couldn't have been re-signed, what the heck else should they have done? Just let him walk away and be signed by someone else and get nothing in return? At least in the scenario that did in fact occur they got SOMETHING back for him. He would have left when his contract was up and they STILL would have been god awful, may be just one less year. So if there is ANY pick to use that line of logic about it is Fleury. Certainly not Crosby. It's ridiculous to blame this attitude on the Jagr move. Were a lot of us pissed? Yes. No doubt about it. But the underlying issue here is that the new system helps the small market teams prevent exactly this situation from happening again with respect to being able to afford one star player.

As for the others who asked for the conversation to return to the Nonis comment and away from Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is an excellent example of why the new system needed to be implemented and will work.