Dave Nonis not a big fan of new free agency

[kdb209]

I didn't hear Nonis complaining about the lowered free agency age when it allowed him to trade for the franchise goalie that the Canucks have been waiting for. Without that lowered UFA age, Florida holds onto Luongo, taking him to arbitration each year if that's what is required.

Personally, I like the idea of lowered free agency, even without the cap. I always had a problem under the old system, with players getting overpaid or underpaid depending on the stage of their career. Now, a player's salary has less to do with his free agency status (it still has an impact, but not as great as it was before) and more to do with their talent level.

One nit - a player can only be taken to Club Elected Arbitration once in his career.

But, otherwise I agree with your post.

 

[Hawker14]

They couldn't afford to re-sign Jagr. They traded him for prospects. Obviously that didn't turn out very well. However, since he couldn't have been re-signed, what the heck else should they have done? Just let him walk away and be signed by someone else and get nothing in return? At least in the scenario that did in fact occur they got SOMETHING back for him. He would have left when his contract was up and they STILL would have been god awful, may be just one less year. So if there is ANY pick to use that line of logic about it is Fleury. Certainly not Crosby. It's ridiculous to blame this attitude on the Jagr move. Were a lot of us pissed? Yes. No doubt about it. But the underlying issue here is that the new system helps the small market teams prevent exactly this situation from happening again with respect to being able to afford one star player.

As for the others who asked for the conversation to return to the Nonis comment and away from Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is an excellent example of why the new system needed to be implemented and will work.

the penguins chose not to allocate their funds on jagr. their payroll was 31.8 million in 2001-02 and 31.2 million in 2002-03. they would've had $ 20 million remaining for players each season. they chose not to spend the money they had on him.

as for his impending ufa status two years down the road, he signed long term with washington so i have to believe he would've signed long term in pittsburgh, therefore i refute that he would've walked no matter what.

the penguins made a business decision to move jagr for relatively no value, and the team's on ice performance immediately suffered. and to put it in perspective of how bad of a return the penguins received, look what phoenix got four months earlier.

Phoenix Coyotes traded Keith Tkachuk to the St. Louis Blues for Ladislav Nagy, Michal Handzus and Jeff Taffe and a 1st round selection (Ben Eager) in 2001.

why is it ridiculous to draw a line between the trading of the league's best player for little return, and the subsequent demise of the team's on-ice play which resulted in top picks ?

the subsequent trade of kovalev in 2003 is further fuel that the pens were not seeking to get quality nhl talent in return, or patrick became the worst gm in the league suddenly. other teams were able to get solid talent back.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

the penguins chose not to allocate their funds on jagr. their payroll was 31.8 million in 2001-02 and 31.2 million in 2002-03. they would've had $ 20 million remaining for players each season. they chose not to spend the money they had on him.

as for his impending ufa status two years down the road, he signed long term with washington so i have to believe he would've signed long term in pittsburgh, therefore i refute that he would've walked no matter what.

the penguins made a business decision to move jagr for relatively no value, and the team's on ice performance immediately suffered. and to put it in perspective of how bad of a return the penguins received, look what phoenix got four months earlier.



why is it ridiculous to draw a line between the trading of the league's best player for little return, and the subsequent demise of the team's on-ice play which resulted in top picks ?

the subsequent trade of kovalev in 2003 is further fuel that the pens were not seeking to get quality nhl talent in return, or patrick became the worst gm in the league suddenly. other teams were able to get solid talent back.

I will wholeheartedly agree with the last point that you made. If you look at all of the moves they made they got little in return. I understand where you are coming from with your impression, but believing that Patrick and the ownership at that time planned this gives them way, way too much credit. Sounds like a giant conspiracy theory to me. If that was really CP's intention, I'd guess he's probably pretty pissed off that he no longer has a job and can't reap the benefits of his hoarding...

Where exactly do you come up with the number that they had $20 million remaining to spend on other players? I'm guessing you're forgetting that the team was in bankruptcy?

 

[Hawker14]

I will wholeheartedly agree with the last point that you made. If you look at all of the moves they made they got little in return. I understand where you are coming from with your impression, but believing that Patrick and the ownership at that time planned this gives them way, way too much credit. Sounds like a giant conspiracy theory to me. If that was really CP's intention, I'd guess he's probably pretty pissed off that he no longer has a job and can't reap the benefits of his hoarding...

Where exactly do you come up with the number that they had $20 million remaining to spend on other players? I'm guessing you're forgetting that the team was in bankruptcy?

i deduced the $ 20 million by subtracting jagr's approx. salary of $ 11.5 million from what the pen's actual payroll figures from '01-'02 ($31.8m) and '02-'03 ($31.2m) were (http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm) .

 

[grego]

Only elite players should end up UFA at 25. Other then that few players will enter the NHL at such a young age that they will get it before 27.

To elite players the market is set. When Crosby is UFA or Ovechkin they will get or be close to max salary under the cap.

There won't be a flat out bidding war for these guys and it is a good thing. If the Pens and Caps pay the money they keep them

 

[Hasbro]

Seems like whoever the GM is in Vanco there's no pleasing them.

 

[Jester]

GMs that complain about this are complete f'ing morons. grow a pair... understand the rules of the league, and compete accordingly. they've leveled the financial playing field, now it's in the hands of the GMs to build their teams within the cap construct. welcome to the new world...

the restrictions on drafted players aren't meant to give you "developmental rights." they're meant to give you control of the player if you wish to use it. if you don't... market value is what it is, which is why Crosby/Ovechkin are going to be straight to the roof players, because that's how good they are.

seriously... does any franchise have a critical thinking GM that actually looks at the rules and the game-theory and all the other crap that they should be looking at to do this job? or are they all sitting around whining that their jobs are harder now? sign a team and try to win a cup... the rules are the same for everyone. ugh.

 

[Jester]

Only elite players should end up UFA at 25. Other then that few players will enter the NHL at such a young age that they will get it before 27.

To elite players the market is set. When Crosby is UFA or Ovechkin they will get or be close to max salary under the cap.

There won't be a flat out bidding war for these guys and it is a good thing. If the Pens and Caps pay the money they keep them

i would give Crosby a 10 year 70M offer if i was the GM of another team and he makes it to RFA... not UFA. the mistake is believing that RFA implies restricted salary... no, it implies that other teams have to pay a price WITH the salary they're willing to give a player. if Crosby isn't signed prior to open RFA... if he doesn't see some ridiculous offers his agent should SCREAM collusion.

either you get him, or you lock the Pens into him... there is no loss.

 

[Zen Arcade]

the penguins chose not to allocate their funds on jagr. their payroll was 31.8 million in 2001-02 and 31.2 million in 2002-03. they would've had $ 20 million remaining for players each season. they chose not to spend the money they had on him.

as for his impending ufa status two years down the road, he signed long term with washington so i have to believe he would've signed long term in pittsburgh, therefore i refute that he would've walked no matter what.

Uh, no, he didn't want to play here anymore, he had to be moved. His comments about "dying alive" in this town and his desire to get out are why a lot of Penguins fans still harbor some animosity towards him. Don't try to re-write history and say the team just randomly dumped him to cut costs, because it's not true.

 

[Hawker14]

Uh, no, he didn't want to play here anymore, he had to be moved. His comments about "dying alive" in this town and his desire to get out are why a lot of Penguins fans still harbor some animosity towards him. Don't try to re-write history and say the team just randomly dumped him to cut costs, because it's not true.

But the cash-strapped Penguins, desperate to dump payroll, could no longer afford Jagr and his reported $20.7 million US salary over the next two seasons.

Nor could they afford an elite and equally expensive player in return.

That's because Pittsburgh has 18 free agents to be re-signed, including Darius Kasparaitis, Alexei Kovalev, Robert Lang and Martin Straka.

"We're not done with what we need to do this summer," Penguins GM Craig Patrick said. "There's still a lot of question marks."

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2001/07/11/jagr010711.html#skip300x250

how am i re-writing history when the history itself says it's true ? everyone knows jagr requested to be traded, but how can it be disputed the pens moved him for financial reasons ?

 

[Kenadyan]

Could the Pens not sign Crosby to a six-year extension (for max. dollars) when he is say 23 or 24 (and still under contract for another 1-2 years)??

Then they would have him locked up until he is almost 30. Seems to me a smart GM would do this (same thing with Washington and Oveckin).

Teams don't have to let the player get to UFA status if they are proactive and offer the player top salary before he reaches UFA years (look at players like Thornton, B. Richards, and St. Louis). Not one of them made it to UFA status and ALL of them are signed extensions that take them to past age 25.

If a player wants to leave to go play elsewhere (say Crosby wants to play in Montreal after his contract is up at age 25, then the player can say "no thanks" and sign elsewhere -- so be it).


This is just Nonis trying to stir the pot.

I do agree with the whole scheduling issue. It would be nice to see some teams play in your home arena more than once every three years.

 

[Zen Arcade]

how am i re-writing history when the history itself says it's true ? everyone knows jagr requested to be traded, but how can it be disputed the pens moved him for financial reasons ?

You're saying they simply chose not to "allocate the funds" when he clearly didn't want to play here anymore. You're twisting the facts to fit your argument, money did play a part in it, but don't act is if they shipped out a guy who would gladly stay here or sign long term here as you said before.

 

[Hawker14]

You're saying they simply chose not to "allocate the funds" when he clearly didn't want to play here anymore. You're twisting the facts to fit your argument, money did play a part in it, but don't act is if they shipped out a guy who would gladly stay here or sign long term here as you said before.

i don't believe i'm twisting facts but i do understand where you are coming from. i just refute that he wouldn't stay in pittsburgh if offered the same 7 year $ 77 million contract that the caps gave him. jagr is all about the money. the pens owned his rights and chose to trade him. i obviously have a different perception of the situation than you do. no worries and certainly not the first time others have disagreed with me.

 

[mfw13]

While I understand Nonis' concerns, because building through the draft is the best way for small market teams to contend, I think he's a bit overdoing it. Teams will still control player rights for a full seven years....they may just have to ante up a bit more cash during years four through seven. And because of the salary cap, big market teams will no longer be able to make outrageously large offers to small-market RFA's.

Pittsburgh should have no trouble finding the money to keep all four of their key young players (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury) if they so desire....it may just mean having a bit higher payroll than they would like. But they certainly will be able to keep all four and stay under the cap.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Could the Pens not sign Crosby to a six-year extension (for max. dollars) when he is say 23 or 24 (and still under contract for another 1-2 years)??.

well, i am not totally certain how the rules apply in the CBA, but i do know there are some specific restrictions on breaking contracts to sign an extension.

thats being said, its not like the team has all the say in the matter. Crosby's and his agent have to agree to the deal and forgo the UFA years. He may decide that since he will get max no matter how long term he signs for, he might as well sign shorter term and keep his options available on where he will play.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

....big market teams will no longer be able to make outrageously large offers to small-market RFA's.

and this happened how many times exactly? 3? Sakic, Gratton and Fedorov?

its a myth, RFA's rarely if ever got an offer, to the point of colusion.

 

[DekeyPete]

and this happened how many times exactly? 3? Sakic, Gratton and Fedorov?

its a myth, RFA's rarely if ever got an offer, to the point of colusion.

i think a gm would be stupid to not offer crosby or ovechkin a huge long term deal to try and steal them away.whats 5 first rounders to a team like the canucks who can't draft anyways?and i'm a canuck fan.i'd gladly sit out the first round of the draft every year to watch the twins and crosby on pp's all year.

 

[joshjull]

While I understand Nonis' concerns, because building through the draft is the best way for small market teams to contend, I think he's a bit overdoing it. Teams will still control player rights for a full seven years....they may just have to ante up a bit more cash during years four through seven. And because of the salary cap, big market teams will no longer be able to make outrageously large offers to small-market RFA's.

Pittsburgh should have no trouble finding the money to keep all four of their key young players (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury) if they so desire....it may just mean having a bit higher payroll than they would like. But they certainly will be able to keep all four and stay under the cap.

He is overdoing it big time. If a player becomes a UFA at 25 that means he played seven years in the NHL for that team. So if Nonis is worried about a five year cycle why can't he still do it? Any player drafted has to stay with the team that drafted him for at least seven years and up to 9 years if he doesn't start in th NHL right away. That sure seems like enough time to build a team around a player of Crosby's caliber.

I noticed he isn't complaining that a superstar like Crosby is only paid 850k this year, also a product of the CBA. Or, as someone else mentioned, that the earlier UFA age allowed him to go and trade for Luongo.

So controling a player for 7-9 years isn't enough for him. Maybe he should find a new occupation.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

i think a gm would be stupid to not offer crosby or ovechkin a huge long term deal to try and steal them away.whats 5 first rounders to a team like the canucks who can't draft anyways?and i'm a canuck fan.i'd gladly sit out the first round of the draft every year to watch the twins and crosby on pp's all year.

maybe and time will tell ... but my point was to refute the cliche that scary big market teams have been raiding poor small market teams with huge RFA contract offers.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

In case anyone missed it, Pittsburgh's new owner is worth over $1.5 billion dollars and is a huge hockey fan who wants to win. Pittsburgh no longer will have a small market budget. They likely will not be able to keep the big three, Crosby, Malkin + Staal long term, with Staal the odd man out, but will not have any trouble at all spending tot he cap to keep this team as intact as possible.

 

[Hasbro]

So what's the over/under on Nonis giving out an offer sheet?

 

[GSC2k2*]

well, i am not totally certain how the rules apply in the CBA, but i do know there are some specific restrictions on breaking contracts to sign an extension.

thats being said, its not like the team has all the say in the matter. Crosby's and his agent have to agree to the deal and forgo the UFA years. He may decide that since he will get max no matter how long term he signs for, he might as well sign shorter term and keep his options available on where he will play.

You are not taking into account the upside of signing a RFA deal for a guy like Crosby. If he resigns as a RFA, in exchange for giving up those years as a UFA, he obtains the security of a long term contract (thus transferring the injury risk to the team) and, in the most likely scenario for Crosby, obtaining a maximum salary much earlier than he otherwise would (since in the absence of his early long-term signing as a RFA, he is probably looking to arbitration).

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

You are not taking into account the upside of signing a RFA deal for a guy like Crosby. If he resigns as a RFA, in exchange for giving up those years as a UFA, he obtains the security of a long term contract (thus transferring the injury risk to the team) and, in the most likely scenario for Crosby, obtaining a maximum salary much earlier than he otherwise would (since in the absence of his early long-term signing as a RFA, he is probably looking to arbitration).

sure there are factors for him to weigh, no doubt. it just bothers me when a poster assumes a team can just a sign a guy to any contract they think is best and forget its not a computer simulation and the player has some say in the matter too.

 

[kdb209]

well, i am not totally certain how the rules apply in the CBA, but i do know there are some specific restrictions on breaking contracts to sign an extension.

A contract extension is not in any size, shape, or form breaking a contract. A contract extension is a bit of a misnomer - it is just a new SPC, signed before a player's current SPC expires, that does not take effect until after the current one is over. An extension has no effect on the player's salary or cap hit for the remainder of his current deal.

For players on a current multi year deal, an extension cannot be signed until the final league year covered by the contract.

For players on a one year deal, an extension cannot be signed until after Jan 1 of that league year.

Players on ELS contracts cannot sign an extension. They must wait for their ELS deals to expire before signing a new SPC.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

In a complete and shocking turn of events, Al Strachan weighs in on Nonis's remarks by using it to take potshots at the league management.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Vancouver/2006/11/02/2208449-sun.html

You know you've screwed up when you find out Al's taking your side.