Crosby current all time center ranking?

[Canadiens1958]

Penalty Kill and Old Resources

Regarding the pre-NHL and even early NHL days, yeah, having done MANY, and i mean MANY hours/days worth of research, sifting through tiny print and very hard to read newspapers clippings going back 100+ years, those guys are extremely difficult to gauge in relation to the finer points of the game, especially defensive awareness or skill of forwards.

There are a handful that routinely got singled out for being very good or elite (Nighbor, Cyclone Taylor for example) many times over many years, but it is very rare to find much in the way of praise for defensive work by F's. Really the only source in most cases is the Montreal Gazette, Ottawa Citizen, and if you're lucky a few Toronto papers or West Coast/Province papers from 1900 to consolidation.

There are obviously no video's, scouting reports, no definitive box scores, etc.

Judging old players in terms of overall ranking isn't insanely difficult but if we're going to single out defensive play by forwards, it is quite hard to get a feel for many players of that era. Unless of course 2 or 3 sentences is enough to pass the burden of proof test....because often times that's all that is out there. And I expect more than a few blurbs.


Also, great point on the PK usage being quite meaningless for how well a player plays defensively at ES or overall. As i pointed out in an earlier post, most of the elite/good scorers in the NHL play very little to zero on the PK in today's game. That is largely a coaching philosophy and usage driven by coaching. Based on his last 2 years as a defensive player, Crosby would excel on the PK by many estimations of people who watch the Pens. He still has very good skating ability, laterally and his stick work is elite. He's a willing shot blocker. Obviously not afraid of contact or putting himself in harms way and his positional awareness has improved tremendously when the other team is cycling on offense. Again, this has been an ongoing process for Sid. And I don't think that aspect of his game is a finished product.

If you look at the 2015-16 season Pittsburgh PK so far without Crosby:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PIT/2016.html

you will see that the Penguins have allowed only 40 PPA compared to a league average of 45 PPA. So how much of a positive difference would Crosby make - assuming your analysis of his defensive skills is accurate and that they are transferable to the PK.

The bigger issue that you have failed to address is what are the consequences of using Crosby or a star player on the PK?

If the penalty is called during or right after Crosby's shift you have to start the PK with your second PK unit while Crosby rests, then finish with the first PK unit. Either way post PK the opposition can dictate match-up since Crosby has to rest or play tired.Playing shorthanded is more tiring than at ES or on the PP. Strategically very bad. Toe Blake never used Beliveau or H. Richard or other top six forwards as PK forwards. His PK forwards were the extra forward/5th defenceman - Don Marshall and Bob Turner, fresh,efficient while giving his top lines extra rest. Post PK, the opposition having used their top players had to play a depth line against the rested Canadiens line that Blake would send out or the opposition could play their tired star players.

Basic strategy that has not changed in over 60 years.

Research and sources. Well you have barely explored Google Newspaper Archives from the above admission. Replacing your MANY hours/days with months or years as others have would be a start.

 

[ImporterExporter]

If I had to guess, this is the first reason I would put forth as to why elite scorers kill penalties less frequently these days. Shot blocking has become an increasingly common strategy over the last 15 years or so. A lot of the forwards who constantly blocked shots in the past (or so it seemed) were doing it because that's how they stayed in the league. Also, the big emphasis on speed since 2006 has led to many rosters where the majority of the forwards are quick enough on their skates to be considered for PK use. The result is, a coach often now has several depth players fast enough to kill penalties, and doesn't mind these guys blocking shots and increasing the odds of an injury. I haven't done any sort of study, so I could be off base here, but this is my perception.

The counter-argument is that the the two forwards on a PK really shouldn't have to block many shots. If they get into shooting lanes on time, the point men are going to pass off and continue trying to set up the open look. It's pretty rare to see a point man bomb a shot he shouldn't have taken right into an opposing forward. Getting injured by a shot should be a much larger concern for a PK-ing defenseman, not a forward. But I'm not an NHL coach, so I can't say exactly what their thoughts are on this.

Pittsburgh has almost never used a scoring line F as a PK regular during Crosby's tenure, at least not in recent years. Dupuis would, but again, to me he was a guy playing over his head as a 1st line player. This year Matt Cullen and Nick Bonino are the primary F's with Eric Fehr just below them in usage. Brandon Sutter, Craig Adams, Nick Spaling, Matt Cooke, and to a slightly lesser degree Jordan Staal, who was a 3C in Pittsburgh more often than not.

Most teams simply aren't using their ace scorers to kill penalties and it doesn't reflect how good/bad they are at ES, IMO.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Let's say that the top 60 centers debate took place in the summer of 2009, after crosby's 4th year.

would he have been up for debate as one of the top 60 centers of all time then?

Maybe but most likely not IMO given how 6 years of Stamkos was treated on par with 4 years of Frank McGee.

Crosby's first four seasons are better than Stamkos' entire career to date, so I'd say there's a good chance he would have snuck onto the bottom of the top 60 list after 2009.

 

[ImporterExporter]

If you look at the 2015-16 season Pittsburgh PK so far without Crosby:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PIT/2016.html

you will see that the Penguins have allowed only 40 PPA compared to a league average of 45 PPA. So how much of a positive difference would Crosby make - assuming your analysis of his defensive skills is accurate and that they are transferable to the PK.

The bigger issue that you have failed to address is what are the consequences of using Crosby or a star player on the PK?

If the penalty is called during or right after Crosby's shift you have to start the PK with your second PK unit while Crosby rests, then finish with the first PK unit. Either way post PK the opposition can dictate match-up since Crosby has to rest or play tired.Playing shorthanded is more tiring than at ES or on the PP. Strategically very bad. Toe Blake never used Beliveau or H. Richard or other top six forwards as PK forwards. His PK forwards were the extra forward/5th defenceman - Don Marshall and Bob Turner, fresh,efficient while giving his top lines extra rest. Post PK, the opposition having used their top players had to play a depth line against the rested Canadiens line that Blake would send out or the opposition could play their tired star players.

Basic strategy that has not changed in over 60 years.

Research and sources. Well you have barely explored Google Newspaper Archives from the above admission. Replacing your MANY hours/days with months or years as others have would be a start.

I think you misinterpreted my wording. I have spent months, easily if we're talking about research done over the past 3 years alone, on any given day. Hell, i'm well past a year, without blinking I'm sure. There have been many days where I've spent hours on end nitpicking through google archives. Please, by all means poll our ATD regulars. Nobody there, or next to nobody is going to say digging up DEFINITIVE information on 75 to 100+ year old players is easier than players from the past 20 for example.

As I explain in my previous post, Pittsburgh has almost never used it's scoring line F's on the PK, ever. Most teams are following the same blue print. Crosby not playing the PK has almost nothing to do with how good/bad/average/whatever he is at ES.

Again, I've never said he was a world beater. I don't think he ever will be. But I do watch as much or more Penguins hockey, year in and year out that just about anyone in this section of the boards, or debate, if we're going smaller. Crosby is a good defensive C right now. Not great. He's not deserving of a Selke finalist nod anytime soon, but I do think you're going to see him start getting into and around the top 10 for that particular award and it coincides with the improvements I and many others have witnessed in his game, defensively. Maybe not. We'll see but the skill, effort, consistency, etc is absolutely better than it was 3 or 5 or 8 years ago. It's accelerated especially the past 2 years. That is not homerism, or fandom. It's an objective observation of a player I've watched closely his entire career. I've got no problem pointing out where and when Crosby has been weak just as pointing out his strengths.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

I think you misinterpreted my wording. I have spent months, easily if we're talking about research done over the past 3 years alone, on any given day. Hell, i'm well past a year, without blinking I'm sure. There have been many days where I've spent hours on end nitpicking through google archives. Please, by all means poll our ATD regulars. Nobody there, or next to nobody is going to say digging up DEFINITIVE information on 75 to 100+ year old players is easier than players from the past 20 for example.

As I explain in my previous post, Pittsburgh has almost never used it's scoring line F's on the PK, ever. Most teams are following the same blue print. Crosby not playing the PK has almost nothing to do with how good/bad/average/whatever he is at ES.

Again, I've never said he was a world beater. I don't think he ever will be. But I do watch as much or more Penguins hockey, year in and year out that just about anyone in this section of the boards, or debate, if we're going smaller. Crosby is a good defensive C right now. Not great. He's not deserving of a Selke finalist nod anytime soon, but I do think you're going to see him start getting into and around the top 10 for that particular award and it coincides with the improvements I and many others have witnessed in his game, defensively. Maybe not. We'll see but the skill, effort, consistency, etc is absolutely better than it was 3 or 5 or 8 years ago. It's accelerated especially the past 2 years. That is not homerism, or fandom. It's an objective observation of a player I've watched closely his entire career. I've got no problem pointing out where and when Crosby has been weak just as pointing out his strengths.

No, I just quoted your words. No interpretation was involved.

Takeaway is that after 10 seasons in the league Sidney Crosby by your estimation might be in the top 10 for the Selke. Players like Henri Richard, Stan Mikita, Dave Keon, Bobby Clarke , Bryan Trottier all managed this as early as their first season, definitely within their first three seasons. Different learning curves for different people.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Takeaways

VsX has its own problems (mostly that it's kind of complicated when the 2nd place scorer isn't a "typical" 2nd place scorer), but it's a decent way to take era into account when comparing Art Ross winners. Is Crosby's 06-07 season (1.52 points per game) is better than anything Gordie Howe managed offensively (1.43 points per game in 73-74)? No, because Howe was actually way, way, way more dominant offensively relative to his peers (what VsX measures).

Defense was often just running interference. Holding, grabbing, slashing, and tackling were things that were commonplace, even in the run-and-gun 80's. Gap control waned during the 80's but is now once again highly important.

Goaltending underwent a major revolution. Benedict's mocked drop-to-his-knees style would decades later be seen again as the more-evolved butterfly. Equipment changed such that pads no longer absorbed water from the ice, keeping them light and making the stand-up unnecessary.

Between the 04-05 lockout and now, systems play is now highly important and (terrifyingly enough) just as effective at keeping scoring low, even with reduced interference, even with reduced goalie equipment size from before the lockout. In the past, players away from the play were allowed to slow down and read the play before joining in when the time was right, what some fans now deride as "floating". The loss of two-line offsides kind of lends itself to more of a north-south game, meaning that players are more likely to be skating hard. Furthermore, players are expected to be skating hard to maintain position for their coaches' "systems".

Offensively, a more "skilled" game emerged after the first encounter with the Soviets in the 1972 Summit Series. Although rovers used to be a thing a long time ago, Orr became the prototypical offensive defenseman (although he was awesome in all three zones, unlike some imitators I could name). Gretzky's playmaking emphasized the benefits of team play (every man on the ice is a potential weapon).

Lots has changed.

First takeaway. Gordie Howe at the age of 45 was more dominant compared to his WHA peers - aged mainly in their twenties than 19 year old Sidney Crosby was to his NHL peers aged mainly in their twenties. Classic apples to oranges. Favourable to Howe and O6 NHL hockey where Howe was even more dominant.

Your view of defensive play is unique. NHL defensive play of the fifties and sixties were much more sophisticated than you admit. Jacques Lemaire dumbed down the Canadiens defensive systems under Toe Blake and Scotty Bowman to produce the New Jersey trap.

No relation between Benedict's cheat and the butterfly. Butterfly became possible once Jacques Plante introduced and popularized the mask. What Allaire taught Patrick Roy he learned from his first Hockey School gig in Montreal, Ecole Co-Jean.

Second takeaway. You completely ignore shift length changes. Benedict's era there was hardly any substitution.Players played marathon shifts. Gradually the game changed to the present day 30-45 second shifts, so pace changes and other tactics have disappeared.

Third takeaway. More skilled game after the 1972 Summit Series did not emerge but returned. Puck movement similar to the forties and fifties returned. Orr was the outgrowth of optimizing ice time in Youth hockey and the realization at the junior and NHL levels that it is impossible to check a defenceman who is an offensive force, with one player or line. Gretzky showed that the complete offensive zone could be used effectively by using the space behind the goal line to the half boards. That this involved all his on ice teammates was no different than Harvey running the Canadiens PP from the left point. Just a different version of playing on the edge, at the extreme borders. That no one is capable of doing this today is another issue.

Last takeaway.Loss of the two line offside. The east - west game has returned in the offensive zone inside the blueline. Biggest impact is in the neutral zone. Today there is a greater margin of error to complete a stretch pass. From the defensive to the opposing blueline. Previously the red line created an offside. However with the red line creating an offside, it was not possible to funnel players into a devestating hit. So far no viable solution has been found.

 

[Czech Your Math]

You want to take a bet on Sid falling by the wayside in the scoring race over the next 3 years? Do you not realize how much Sid has dominated scoring since Sullivan took over? With dead weight like Kunitz and to a lesser degree Hornqvist at ES? Eichel will not shoot up to north of a PPG in Buffalo in 1 year. Not a chance. Seguin? How much better has he been the past 2 years? Better yet, since Sullivan took over and implement a style that fits the Penguins roster. Backstrom? Knuetsov? They have been healthy and not scoring better than Sid. McDavid and Kane are the legit threats. After that, nobody sticks out.

Sid has been the highest scoring player since December, coincidentally when they canned a completely inept Mike Johnston who was running that roster like a mid/late 90's trap Devil's team. Sullivan enters, they play north, south, big transition, hard fore check and cycle and are either 1st or 2nd in scoring since them as well as putting more shots on net per game, than any team in the league.

Crosby has 61 points in 48 GP since Sullivan began coaching Pens. Thornton has 59 points in his last 48 GP. Are we supposed to be astounded that Crosby was able to outscore 36 y/o Thornton by 2 points over a 48 game span?

Most impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* High level of scoring at early age.
* Consistently high level of scoring.
* Consistently strong even strength data.

Least impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* Best seasons weren't better than his best peers or other all-time greats supposedly below his level.
* Never outscored best of his peers at their peaks ('08-'10 Ovechkin, '08-'09 & '12 Malkin), although his opportunities were limited to due to injuries (his and Malkin's) and AO's short peak.
* Playoff meltdowns, relatively weak playoff performance since 2010 second round, consistent lack of performance in playoffs against better than mediocre defensive teams.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Time on Ice

Crosby has 61 points in 48 GP since Sullivan began coaching Pens. Thornton has 59 points in his last 48 GP. Are we supposed to be astounded that Crosby was able to outscore 36 y/o Thornton by 2 points over a 48 game span?

Most impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* High level of scoring at early age.
* Consistently high level of scoring.
* Consistently strong even strength data.

Least impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* Best seasons weren't better than his best peers or other all-time greats supposedly below his level.
* Never outscored best of his peers at their peaks ('08-'10 Ovechkin, '08-'09 & '12 Malkin), although his opportunities were limited to due to injuries (his and Malkin's) and AO's short peak.
* Playoff meltdowns, relatively weak playoff performance since 2010 second round, consistent lack of performance in playoffs against better than mediocre defensive teams.

Especially when we consider that Crosby plays 20:26 minutes per game while Thornton plays 18:24 minutes a game.

 

[Hardyvan123]

If I had to guess, this is the first reason I would put forth as to why elite scorers kill penalties less frequently these days. Shot blocking has become an increasingly common strategy over the last 15 years or so. A lot of the forwards who constantly blocked shots in the past (or so it seemed) were doing it because that's how they stayed in the league. Also, the big emphasis on speed since 2006 has led to many rosters where the majority of the forwards are quick enough on their skates to be considered for PK use. The result is, a coach often now has several depth players fast enough to kill penalties, and doesn't mind these guys blocking shots and increasing the odds of an injury. I haven't done any sort of study, so I could be off base here, but this is my perception.

The counter-argument is that the the two forwards on a PK really shouldn't have to block many shots. If they get into shooting lanes on time, the point men are going to pass off and continue trying to set up the open look. It's pretty rare to see a point man bomb a shot he shouldn't have taken right into an opposing forward. Getting injured by a shot should be a much larger concern for a PK-ing defenseman, not a forward. But I'm not an NHL coach, so I can't say exactly what their thoughts are on this.

Agree with alot here and will add that PK units have become much more attack the puck oriented and blocking off lanes aggressively rather than passive play in the box type of systems that were much more prevalent in the 80's for instance.

Part of that no doubt is due to goalie equipment and their abilities to have a much higher save % than in the past.

No doubt though, league speed has increased greatly where the gap between the best skaters and the weakest ones is much smaller.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Crosby's first four seasons are better than Stamkos' entire career to date, so I'd say there's a good chance he would have snuck onto the bottom of the top 60 list after 2009.

fair enough but I'm not to sure about that.

To be fair it does seem hard (as a group) to place current players, especially young ones, in proper context all time.

A good test might be McDavid after 4 or 5 seasons to the guys at 55-60 on the top centers list....if McDavid continues the ascent expected of him.

 

[Hardyvan123]

No, I just quoted your words. No interpretation was involved.

Takeaway is that after 10 seasons in the league Sidney Crosby by your estimation might be in the top 10 for the Selke. Players like Henri Richard, Stan Mikita, Dave Keon, Bobby Clarke , Bryan Trottier all managed this as early as their first season, definitely within their first three seasons. Different learning curves for different people.

Outside of Mikita (he had a 9 year stretch and his defensive prowess isn't as documented or verifiable as Clarke or Trottier either but indeed it was very good in a Foppa type of way), none of those players are known as a consistent top 3 offensive force in the league for over 10 years either.

Simply put Crosby stands out among this group, Mikita being the exception by quite a bit.

 

[daver]

Crosby has 61 points in 48 GP since Sullivan began coaching Pens. Thornton has 59 points in his last 48 GP. Are we supposed to be astounded that Crosby was able to outscore 36 y/o Thornton by 2 points over a 48 game span?

Most impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* High level of scoring at early age.
* Consistently high level of scoring.
* Consistently strong even strength data.

Least impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* Best seasons weren't better than his best peers or other all-time greats supposedly below his level.
* Never outscored best of his peers at their peaks ('08-'10 Ovechkin, '08-'09 & '12 Malkin), although his opportunities were limited to due to injuries (his and Malkin's) and AO's short peak.
* Playoff meltdowns, relatively weak playoff performance since 2010 second round, consistent lack of performance in playoffs against better than mediocre defensive teams.

I am sure if you removed the best playoff runs and series for the other players in the Top Centres list, they would also look weak in comparison. Crosby's overall career playoff resume is fine in relation to his peers thru age 28. If you are going to cherry-pick part of it and call it not impressive then in the interest of fairness you need to look at his resume thru the 1st round of 2010. It is possibly he best ever for a player thru the age of 21 including Wayne and Mario.

At this juncture, there is no reason to rate Crosby lower than a player who has a clearly inferior offensive resume due to his playoff resume. He is pacing to be in among the "Tier 2" centres, above the Sakics, Yzerman's and Trottiers, where then his playoff resume in relation to those players will dicate his placing.

I would apply the same logic to Jagr and OV, both of whom have weaker playoff resumes vs. their peers.

 

[daver]

This is the HOH... not the "what if" Fantasyland History of Hockey.... we deal in facts.

Are you saying that Mario is not revered for winning Art Rosses in partial seasons? Or that Orr is not assumed to have put up more generational seasons if not for his knees. There has to be some happy medium between looking at raw points and PPG, along with reasonable consideration for injuries.

Or else it should be acknowledged with no dispute that Crosby's 2013/14 season was as statistically dominant as Jagr's win in 98/99 based on his lead over 2nd place. You can guess how well this will be accepted by some of the posters here.

Stevie Y beat Mario head to head in raw points 10 of 19 seasons, and has more career points. And was the better defensive player. Mario beats him only in peak regular season and playoff performance. But they should be a lot closer than #2 and #12 if one only deals with raw points.

Noone deserves credit for points they didn't actually score but Crosby should be separated from players who he is clearly ahead of on a per game basis.

 

[daver]

Is anyone else buying that by coincidence the league became diluted and the talented level weakened in 2005/06 when Crosby entered the league?

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Is anyone else buying that by coincidence the league became diluted and the talented level weakened in 2005/06 when Crosby entered the league?

I don't. I think the early 2000' was even worse, but I think if you talk about the real top end talent the "era" after the lockout is pretty darn weak. Especially compared to 80' or early to mid 90'.

 

[daver]

I don't. I think the early 2000' was even worse, but I think if you talk about the real top end talent the "era" after the lockout is pretty darn weak. Especially compared to 80' or early to mid 90'.

As the scoring environment tightens up, elite offensive talent has a more difficult time separating itself from the pack and introduces parity. Rather than a large scale decrease in the elite talent of the league, IMO, this is a more reasonable way to view it.

Nobody was claiming from 2005-2010 that the talent level was weak. So what has happened in the last five years? Seems pretty coincidental that all players are seeing a decrease in their production over the past 5 years and have seemingly gotten worse.

There is no reason to believe that any player from the current era wouldn't perform just as well on a relative basis in any other era.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby is soon to be a top 3 scorer 7 times.

How many players in history have done that? Not many

 

[Canadiens1958]

Healthy

Outside of Mikita (he had a 9 year stretch and his defensive prowess isn't as documented or verifiable as Clarke or Trottier either but indeed it was very good in a Foppa type of way), none of those players are known as a consistent top 3 offensive force in the league for over 10 years either.

Simply put Crosby stands out among this group, Mikita being the exception by quite a bit.

Again, fantasy type position that rewards a player with positive attributes while injured. Give the other players the same injury consideration bonuses that you are giving Crosby and the optic changes greatly.

 

[daver]

Again, fantasy type position that rewards a player with positive attributes while injured. Give the other players the same injury consideration bonuses that you are giving Crosby and the optic changes greatly.

So what metrics would you look at to compare the best 10 year primes of the other players? Raw Art Ross finishes places him well above most centres he is currently behind anyways.

And do you acknowledge that Crosby had one of the most dominant Art Ross wins outside of Wayne and Mario in 2013/14? People say his peak isn't higher than some 3rd tier centres like Yzerman, Trottier or Sakic or his immediate peers like Malkin and OV but that win was more dominant than anything that they did.

This, of course, is based on looking at reality, not fantasy.

 

[Canadiens1958]

2015-16 Talent Levels

As the scoring environment tightens up, elite offensive talent has a more difficult time separating itself from the pack and introduces parity. Rather than a large scale decrease in the elite talent of the league, IMO, this is a more reasonable way to view it.

Nobody was claiming from 2005-2010 that the talent level was weak. So what has happened in the last five years? Seems pretty coincidental that all players are seeing a decrease in their production over the past 5 years and have seemingly gotten worse.

There is no reason to believe that any player from the current era wouldn't perform just as well on a relative basis in any other era.

Your claims are not supported by data and facts.

31G and 45 A = 76 points would be considered elite in today's NHL. Player would be tied for 5th in NHL scoring with Joe Thornton.

But this is the aggregate total of AHL, waiver wire pick-up, projects and call-ups on the Montreal Canadiens this season. Some of the contribution is from players who were second and third liners on a non-playoff AHL team. So non-playoff AHL talent somehow becomes NHL level talent by changing the jersey. Furthermore your view is that these non-playoff level minor leaguers would have made the O6 NHL Canadiens. Only if they bought tickets to the games would they have seen the inside of an NHL arena in the O6 era.

Collectively these players are very weak defensively plus they have played most of their NHL career in front of an AHL quality goalie.

Yet very few teams are able to explode offensively against the ragtag assortment that the Canadiens ice. Presently the defensive system used by the Canadiens is haphazard. So what happened to the elite offensive talent levels that you claim exists?

 

[daver]

Your claims are not supported by data and facts.

When someone claims that a player would not be as dominant on a relative basis if they played in another era, then I think the onus is on that person to support that claim with data and facts. Considering it is a hypothetical situation they are proposing, I think data and facts may be hard to come by. Thus I am pretty comfortable in my response to a completely subjective claim.

The irony of you placing such an emphasis on not dealing with "fantasy" in your previous post is overwhelming. Apparently considering what Crosby could have done if not for some unlucky and untimely injuries is sacrilege on the HOH board, but dismissing generational Art Ross placings because he wouldn't do as well if he hypothetically played in another era is acceptable?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Crosby has 61 points in 48 GP since Sullivan began coaching Pens. Thornton has 59 points in his last 48 GP. Are we supposed to be astounded that Crosby was able to outscore 36 y/o Thornton by 2 points over a 48 game span?

Most impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* High level of scoring at early age.
* Consistently high level of scoring.
* Consistently strong even strength data.

Least impressive things about Crosby's career so far:

* Best seasons weren't better than his best peers or other all-time greats supposedly below his level.
* Never outscored best of his peers at their peaks ('08-'10 Ovechkin, '08-'09 & '12 Malkin), although his opportunities were limited to due to injuries (his and Malkin's) and AO's short peak.
* Playoff meltdowns, relatively weak playoff performance since 2010 second round, consistent lack of performance in playoffs against better than mediocre defensive teams.

Ah, the classic Joe Thornton argument. Easy to debunk.

Thornton is a one way street. He is a play maker in an all time sense and really in a current sense. He has next to no goal scoring ability compared to many of his C peers whether in current times or an all time sense. Crosby has led the league as a goal scorer and had 32 in 41 before losing his most dominant season due to head/neck problems. Thornton hasn't scored more than 30 since aged 23 season.

Sid has scored 0.48 goals per game over his career to Thornton's 0.28. Sid is a much more rounded offensive player. It isn't even worth debating because it's a fact.

Really? I forgot, how many Hart trophies did Henri Richard win? How many times did he lead the league in scoring? I'll save you the trouble. 0. 0. In fact he wasn't even one of the 2 and maybe 3 best players on those 50's dynasty teams. Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey were easily more important pieces. Hell, Dickie Moore won back to back Art Ross' in 58 and 59. More significant feats than anything Richard did. Richard as at the tail end of his career, so I'd say he was much more of a secondary player by that time.

And that proves another point. Look at the friggin' elite HOH talent those Canadian teams had. Beliveau, Harvey, Plante, Geoffrion, Tom Johnson, Richard......and a slew of other AS caliber players.

A player like Henri Richard wasn't even the focal point on teams that were incredibly talented, much more so than anything teams have in today's game. It's not that Henri Richard wasn't an important player or cog on many Cup winning teams, but he didn't have to shoulder the burden of offense or defense on any of those teams. Not even remotely close.

Syl Apps? Another guy who never led the league in scoring, never won a Hart (although his record is clearly superior to Richard in that respect, but competition was much weaker than in the 50's and 60's at C)

Frank Boucher, Milt Schmidt? What accolades do they posses that puts them in front of a guy like Crosby? Cup counting doesn't even work as a big swing factor with either of these guys, as do some of the other guys who were on 06 dynasties. Not that Cup counting means much, all things considered.

As per the norm, active and more recent players are absolutely held to a much more ridiculous standard when comparing greats across era's. There is bias against more recent players and it isn't just about Crosby or Ovechkin, or any other great player of today. We talk about it all the time over in the ATD section and how long it took for those stigma's and stereotypes lessened.

Last bold part is, as I've pointed out complete and utter *********.

2008 he put up 27 (led playoffs in scoring and assists) in 21 games, and was Conn Smythe good as a damn 20 year old. They just ran into a far superior and more importantly seasoned Detroit team in the finals. Great playoff run for Sid.

2009 = 31 points in 24 games. 2nd in playoff scoring, led playoffs in goals (and ES goals) as the Pens won the Cup. Conn Smythe worthy run, only bested by an even more insane run from Malkin. Great playoff run.

2010 = 19 points in 13 games. If you think Sid was the reason the Pens got bounced you didn't watch the playoffs that year or are just grasping at straws. He was strong in both series.

10-11 he was injured

2011-12 = 8 points in 6 games. Marc Andre Fleury's consistent meltdowns began here. MAF/defense surrendered 4.63 GAA and Fleury had a .834 Sv%. I don't know if I've seen a goalie play as horrendously as he did in that series. Crosby wasn't great but he still produced points for his team and again, was nowhere near the top of the list for reasons Pittsburgh fell apart.

2012-13 = 15 points in 14 games. He was great in the first two series vs NY and Ottawa. Then Boston completely shut him and the Pens down in the conference finals. Overall, not strong, nor weak, unless you want to simply focus on one series, which is what a biased person would do. And if you think that no other all time great players have ever been shut down, you need to learn some history and research Rocket Richard not scoring a single point in the 54 Cup finals vs Detroit. Plenty of other names can be brought up, but even the best get shut down/out in tough series from time to time.

2013-14 = 9 points in 13 games. Easily Crosby's worst playoff performance. Dubinksy and Columbus continually trolled and roughed him up and for the most part held him in check. Taking advantage of refs putting whistles in their pockets and the Pens not standing up for their stars, made for a great strategy. Just kept pounding him within and sometimes beyond the rules. Pens advanced but MAF was more of a reason then anything. This is where Fleury started to rebound from his prior meltdowns. The Rangers just took what the Jackets did and took it a step further. Marc Stall in particular. Crosby didn't do much of anything. Not a good showing.

2014-15 = 4 points in 5 games. The Pens sucked before this series even started. Bylsma was looooong overdue to be fired for his failures behind the bench and the team stopped responding to him well before the playoffs even started. Crosby was pulling players like Bobby Farnham and Jayson Megna up and down the ice at ES due to injuries and inept coaching. I'm surprised Crosby scored any points and the Pens even managed to win a game or keep a few others close. Completely outclassed at every level. So, yeah chalk up another dud.

Either way you slice it Crosby has had 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs. He's 7th all time in scoring per game in playoff history with 100 games to his name, so it's not like we're talking a small sample size.

He had one series in 2013 where he was held in check by Boston and then had his worst playoffs in 2014 over 2 series. 2015 was more or less meaningless given the Pens went in as an 8th seed with massive injuries to their entire roster. And Dan Bylsma had lost the team long before the end of that year.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

So what metrics would you look at to compare the best 10 year primes of the other players? Raw Art Ross finishes places him well above most centres he is currently behind anyways.

And do you acknowledge that Crosby had one of the most dominant Art Ross wins outside of Wayne and Mario in 2013/14? People say his peak isn't higher than some 3rd tier centres like Yzerman, Trottier or Sakic or his immediate peers like Malkin and OV but that win was more dominant than anything that they did.

This, of course, is based on looking at reality, not fantasy.

No interest in such comparisons because the contemporaries, teammates and oppositions are not the same rather variable in fact.

Crosby 2013-14 Art Ross far from impressive. Beat Getzlaf by 17 points yet he played 80 games and 1758 minutes compared to Getzlaf, the runner-up playing 77 games and 1639 minutes. Big difference in ice time is telling.

Over a 70 game O6 schedule greater margins of Art Ross victory were produced roughly 1/3 of the time, as well as statistical ties or marginal victories. Howe alone in his string of four consecutive Art Ross wins won by an average of 18.75 points. So Crosby's 2013-14 season has been bettered relative to season length many times by many players other than Gretzky and Lemieux. NHL reality at work. Only commonality is that like Crosby in 2013-14, the player enjoyed a similar extra ice time advantage.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I don't. I think the early 2000' was even worse, but I think if you talk about the real top end talent the "era" after the lockout is pretty darn weak. Especially compared to 80' or early to mid 90'.

At least were a couple of the big 3 healthy and at/near their peak for most of '07 to '10. After that:

* Ovechkin suddenly dropped, his peak as a point scorer over.
* Malkin has been frequently injured, missing < 13 games once.
* Crosby was injured for much of two seasons, produced a great season after a long period of unusual rest, and now we are being told that finishing 3rd a couple times behind the likes of Benn, Kane, and Tavares is going to boost his status vs. all-time greats.

These last two seasons help round out Crosby's already excellent prime, but I'm not sure how much they will help him against Mikita, etc.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nice

Ah, the classic Joe Thornton argument. Easy to debunk.

Thornton is a one way street. He is a play maker in an all time sense and really in a current sense. He has next to no goal scoring ability compared to many of his C peers whether in current times or an all time sense. Crosby has led the league as a goal scorer and had 32 in 41 before losing his most dominant season due to head/neck problems. Thornton hasn't scored more than 30 since aged 23 season.

Sid has scored 0.48 goals per game over his career to Thornton's 0.28. Sid is a much more rounded offensive player. It isn't even worth debating because it's a fact.

Really? I forgot, how many Hart trophies did Henri Richard win? How many times did he lead the league in scoring? I'll save you the trouble. 0. 0. In fact he wasn't even one of the 2 and maybe 3 best players on those 50's dynasty teams. Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey were easily more important pieces. Hell, Dickie Moore won back to back Art Ross' in 58 and 59. More significant feats than anything Richard did. Richard as at the tail end of his career, so I'd say he was much more of a secondary player by that time.

And that proves another point. Look at the friggin' elite HOH talent those Canadian teams had. Beliveau, Harvey, Plante, Geoffrion, Tom Johnson, Richard......and a slew of other AS caliber players.

A player like Henri Richard wasn't even the focal point on teams that were incredibly talented, much more so than anything teams have in today's game. It's not that Henri Richard wasn't an important player or cog on many Cup winning teams, but he didn't have to shoulder the burden of offense or defense on any of those teams. Not even remotely close.

Syl Apps? Another guy who never led the league in scoring, never won a Hart (although his record is clearly superior to Richard in that respect, but competition was much weaker than in the 50's and 60's at C)

Frank Boucher, Milt Schmidt? What accolades do they posses that puts them in front of a guy like Crosby? Cup counting doesn't even work as a big swing factor with either of these guys, as do some of the other guys who were on 06 dynasties. Not that Cup counting means much, all things considered.

As per the norm, active and more recent players are absolutely held to a much more ridiculous standard when comparing greats across era's. There is bias against more recent players and it isn't just about Crosby or Ovechkin, or any other great player of today. We talk about it all the time over in the ATD section and how long it took for those stigma's and stereotypes lessened.

Last bold part is, as I've pointed out complete and utter *********.

2008 he put up 27 (led playoffs in scoring and assists) in 21 games, and was Conn Smythe good as a damn 20 year old. They just ran into a far superior and more importantly seasoned Detroit team in the finals. Great playoff run for Sid.

2009 = 31 points in 24 games. 2nd in playoff scoring, led playoffs in goals (and ES goals) as the Pens won the Cup. Conn Smythe worthy run, only bested by an even more insane run from Malkin. Great playoff run.

2010 = 19 points in 13 games. If you think Sid was the reason the Pens got bounced you didn't watch the playoffs that year or are just grasping at straws. He was strong in both series.

10-11 he was injured

2011-12 = 8 points in 6 games. Marc Andre Fleury's consistent meltdowns began here. MAF/defense surrendered 4.63 GAA and Fleury had a .834 Sv%. I don't know if I've seen a goalie play as horrendously as he did in that series. Crosby wasn't great but he still produced points for his team and again, was nowhere near the top of the list for reasons Pittsburgh fell apart.

2012-13 = 15 points in 14 games. He was great in the first two series vs NY and Ottawa. Then Boston completely shut him and the Pens down in the conference finals. Overall, not strong, nor weak, unless you want to simply focus on one series, which is what a biased person would do. And if you think that no other all time great players have ever been shut down, you need to learn some history and research Rocket Richard not scoring a single point in the 54 Cup finals vs Detroit. Plenty of other names can be brought up, but even the best get shut down/out in tough series from time to time.

2013-14 = 9 points in 13 games. Easily Crosby's worst playoff performance. Dubinksy and Columbus continually trolled and roughed him up and for the most part held him in check. Taking advantage of refs putting whistles in their pockets and the Pens not standing up for their stars, made for a great strategy. Just kept pounding him within and sometimes beyond the rules. Pens advanced but MAF was more of a reason then anything. This is where Fleury started to rebound from his prior meltdowns. The Rangers just took what the Jackets did and took it a step further. Marc Stall in particular. Crosby didn't do much of anything. Not a good showing.

2014-15 = 4 points in 5 games. The Pens sucked before this series even started. Bylsma was looooong overdue to be fired for his failures behind the bench and the team stopped responding to him well before the playoffs even started. Crosby was pulling players like Bobby Farnham and Jayson Megna up and down the ice at ES due to injuries and inept coaching. I'm surprised Crosby scored any points and the Pens even managed to win a game or keep a few others close. Completely outclassed at every level. So, yeah chalk up another dud.

Either way you slice it Crosby has had 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs. He's 7th all time in scoring per game in playoff history with 100 games to his name, so it's not like we're talking a small sample size.

He had one series in 2013 where he was held in check by Boston and then had his worst playoffs in 2014 over 2 series. 2015 was more or less meaningless given the Pens went in as an 8th seed with massive injuries to their entire roster. And Dan Bylsma had lost the team long before the end of that year.

Nice. First poster to conflate Maurice Richard who was at the tail end of his career with Henri Richard his much younger brother by 15 years and the topic of this discussion. While Moore played on the same line as the Richard brothers did he also played on the PP with Maurice Richard. Henri Richard had very minimal PP time. ES he easily outscored Dickie Moore.

You have a unique way of presenting your position. Dismissive of cup counting but embracing all other types of award and honour counting that is favourable to your point of view. So far you are counting Hart Trophies, phantom Conn Smythe worthy seasons, etc.

Factually - the Richard brother mix-up is a classic, you are rather weak. Syl Apps. Leafs were a team that iced (X+1) lines compared to most of the teams icing X lines. So Syl Apps had had a TOI disadvantage in terms of winning individual awards and honours. Prime example, last SC played with two other HHOF centers, Ted Kennedy and Max Bentley. Only such three line combination in history. 1954 SC finals, Canadiens vs Detroit, Rocket Richard scored three goals. Check the HSP project here.