Corsi, shot quality, and the Toronto Maple Leafs

Delicious Dangles*

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Because VAR (observed) is referring to the exact same thing as VAR (actual), and VAR (binomial variation is referring to the same thing as VAR (luck), the two formulas are identical!

Why are you able to assume that the variance due to luck is the same as your value for binomial variantion? If it is that simple, I question why others do calculations for this value, and get different results.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/11/22/1826590/luck-in-the-nhl-standings
http://blog.philbirnbaum.com/2013/01/luck-vs-talent-in-nhl-standings.html
http://www.bettingexpert.com/blog/football-luck

Well - that sounds like a philosophical issue. Certainly, findings in fields like quantum mechanics would suggest that some things truly are random, and cannot be predicted.
This has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. That is not what quantum mechanics suggests is random.

Every action in hockey has a consistent reaction based on the applicable factors.

In any event, when you develop your own model that's able to predict binomial variation, let me know. No excuses, right? :laugh:
No, I do not have to do that. All I have to do is bring into question your statistics. Some things simply cannot be predicted with any worthwhile accuracy with our current wealth of knowledge and capabilities.

I made no such assumption.

The original inquiry was simply whether corsi and fenwick predict future results, when the original sample is smaller than 80 games, better than points percentage or goal differential. Which they do, as substantiated by the data I posted.
Assuming correct results, best possible methods, as a league average, based on 4 of over 100 years of data. So actually, you did, by applying those findings to an individual team.

If corsi correlates to half of the teams perfectly and half of the teams horribly, you can get a correlation for the league that does not apply at all to half of the teams.

With an across season analysis, all those factors come into play as well, just like they do with a within season analysis.

Except with an across season analysis, you have the added effect of off-season roster acquisitions and departures.

So - quite clearly - a within season analysis has less confounding variables.
No you don't. You play the same teams the same amount of times in every year, assuming no rule changes. This is a large benefit for looking at full seasons. The roster changes from season to season tend to happen just as much as in-season roster changes.

A larger sample also decreases the impact of your so-called luck, which you should want to do.

Then devise your own method.
As I previously stated, this is not a requirement for questioning your method.
 

Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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Just because you only noticed these stats because they were only applied to your team because they began to matter doesn't mean loads of people weren't already using them. Quite a few people on the Flyers board began picking up on them during the Great Carter Debates 5-6 years ago. You'll notice that's entirely unrelated to Toronto.

So, you can feel free to drop the conspiracy angle and forget whatever rage-like emotions it stirs on you, because if that's how you're approaching this subject it's clear you're approaching it with hostility that isn't warranted or productive for discussion.


Considering that it only grew in popularity when it applied negatively to the Leafs, and majority of articles and hockey personalities that reference it also reference or apply it to the Leafs in some negative light, yes.

I have been following hockey for many years, and I didn't see a single mention of it anywhere back when we sucked and corsi said we should be good.

In fact, I think it is quite amusing that the group advocating for the accuracy of these stats that have very little correlation, are the ones arguing that the huge correlation between the explosion in popularity and the Leafs performance in those metrics was just coincidence, even when ongoing evidence proves otherwise.
 

Bear of Bad News

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Sep 27, 2005
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Taking this thread as an example of an anti-Toronto agenda in the hockey analytics community is akin to a tow truck driver ramming cars on the highway to drum up business.
 

Delicious Dangles*

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Just because you only noticed these stats because they were only applied to your team because they began to matter doesn't mean loads of people weren't already using them. Quite a few people on the Flyers board began picking up on them during the Great Carter Debates 5-6 years ago. You'll notice that's entirely unrelated to Toronto.

So, you can feel free to drop the conspiracy angle and forget whatever rage-like emotions it stirs on you, because if that's how you're approaching this subject it's clear you're approaching it with hostility that isn't warranted or productive for discussion.
Similarly, I can say that just because YOU (somebody who likes statistics and would therefore hang out in places and with people with similar interests) got into these statistics further back, DOES NOT mean that majority of other people did, or that the general hockey community did.

And it's not even just a Toronto=popularity thing. They only became popular when it was showing the Leafs in a negative light, not when the Leafs started defying it.

The guy on the previous page even showed you proof of this.

It's not a conspiracy, and I don't rage because of it. I laugh at it, and the people that so desperately try to use extremely flawed statistics to support their pre-conceived notions and beliefs.

The people that recognize the countless problems with the stats, and look for ways to improve them based on results in reality, I respect and understand. People that claim that reality is "wrong" because the stats supposedly say so after twisting it and making a bunch of assumptions, is what is ridiculous.

Lots of people in here understand numbers, but not how to utilize statistics. When you have a statistic, especially one with such low correlation, you should always think to yourself "Why ELSE could I be getting this result?" and "What ELSE could it mean".

You don't just accept that it means what you think it means for the whole sample, and start making predictions on the individual level that contradict reality.
 

Bear of Bad News

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Similarly, I can say that just because YOU (somebody who likes statistics and would therefore hang out in places and with people with similar interests) got into these statistics further back, DOES NOT mean that majority of other people did, or that the general hockey community did.

And it's not even just a Toronto=popularity thing. They only became popular when it was showing the Leafs in a negative light, not when the Leafs started defying it.

Between these two options:

(1) The entire hockey analytics community (sorry - the *majority* of the hockey analytics community) is only doing this to disparage the Toronto Maple Leafs, or

(2) A Toronto fan is a bit sensitive about anything that casts his team in a negative light.

I know which option I'm picking. Do you?

Hockey analytics is a lot of work. If I wanted to disparage the Maple Leafs, there are a hell of a lot easier ways to do it.
 

hatterson

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Except this is heavily skewed by what those 5 years include. Were they on the same team? In the same situations? Same stages of development? A player can change a lot over 5 years, and the type of player they were 5 years ago does not indicate what type of player they are today. Not even close actually.

This is especially true for a young team like the Leafs, who haven't had the time to accumulate a 5-year average that is representative of their abilities today. In fact, most Leaf players either were not in the league 5 years ago, or were entirely different players.

And it is not just about the quality of players in a vacuum (and shooting percentages are far from the only value a player can add to a team). You can two players of the exact same quality and capabilities, and they would produce different results depending on the circumstances and their role on the team.

Only one team in recent history has been able to maintain a PDO over 1020 for multiple years, that's the Bruins from 07-08 through 08-09 with 1023 (Driven mainly by an insane 1041 in 08-09). The next highest 2 year stretch is 1018. The highest 3 year stretch is 1016.

Yes, obviously teams change players over the course of multiple seasons but given that it's so, so rare to be able to repeat high PDO performances, and that multiple really good teams (Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Boston) have maintained a very similar core of players and yet been unable to consistently crazy 1010, much less 1020, does it seem more likely that although PDO doesn't always regress right to 1000, that teams true talent levels aren't that far away from it?


Except that is not luck. It is physics and geometry. Theoretically you could replicate that shot if we had the capabilities to control that kind of accuracy and force.

Sure, and when players can begin to control their shot speed to levels approaching what would be needed to duplicate those goals then I'll agree. But the simple fact is that, right now, goals are scored that are fundamentally out of a players ability to control. He takes a shot from the point, it's .5 inches to the right of where he was aiming and because of that it ever so slightly ticks off another players stick, who hasn't even mentally processed the shot leaving the stick yet, much less had time to react to it, which causes it to hit off a shin pad, off the post, off the back of the goalie, and in. If, instead, that shot was .5 inches to the left it would have missed the first stick entirely, not hit the shinpad, not hit the post, not gone in and instead smacked the goalie in the chest.

Sure that might technically not be luck, but as I said, until players can begin to actually control the puck to that level (hint, they can't), luck is as good a thing to call it.


This is basically saying we should not be using such small samples.

And before somebody says that is all we have, well sorry, but that doesn't magically make the results better or more accurate.

It also makes the statement that Stanley Cups cant be won a different way untrue, since all you would need is 1 season.

Who said cups can't be won with bad possession? A rational follower of advanced stats won't tell you you *can't* merely that it's much rarer to do so. It's much harder to do it. The odds tell us it *likely* won't happen.

As MoD has shown, multiple times, at the half-season level, shot based metrics have more predictive power than goal based metrics and win based metrics. In addition, shot based metrics have strong correlation with playoff success.

No one (at least no one rational) is saying these are perfect predictors, or even "great" predictors in the pure statistical sense. Just that they're stronger predictors than anything else, including wins.
 

Delicious Dangles*

Guest
Between these two options:

(1) The entire hockey analytics community (sorry - the *majority* of the hockey analytics community) is only doing this to disparage the Toronto Maple Leafs, or

(2) A Toronto fan is a bit sensitive about anything that casts his team in a negative light.

I know which option I'm picking. Do you?

Hockey analytics is a lot of work. If I wanted to disparage the Maple Leafs, there are a hell of a lot easier ways to do it.
Not ONLY the hockey analytics community, which is part of the problem.

Even if Toronto fell in line with Corsi, I would still question it's merits. The fact that people consistently use it against the Maple Leafs and have increased it's popularity and spread misconceptions, just makes me more likely to be vocal about it.
 
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Delicious Dangles*

Guest
Only one team in recent history has been able to maintain a PDO over 1020 for multiple years, that's the Bruins from 07-08 through 08-09 with 1023 (Driven mainly by an insane 1041 in 08-09). The next highest 2 year stretch is 1018. The highest 3 year stretch is 1016.

Yes, obviously teams change players over the course of multiple seasons but given that it's so, so rare to be able to repeat high PDO performances, and that multiple really good teams (Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Boston) have maintained a very similar core of players and yet been unable to consistently crazy 1010, much less 1020, does it seem more likely that although PDO doesn't always regress right to 1000, that teams true talent levels aren't that far away from it?
That is because teams don't tend to have elite shooters AND elite goalies (that also experience no injuries) at the same time for multiple years, especially during the short time frame right after a massive change in the rules that brought all teams more or less in line with each other and hinders the ability to keep elite groups together.

Plus, it may not happen often, but we see sustained stretches even during this time. As the cap skyrockets, you will probably see it more often.

If you were to have a team that had many forwards capable of high-end production (that don't necessary take a lot of shots), an elite goalie, and a defense/system that emphasized protecting against high-chance opportunities instead of shots, you would likely see a team that consistently posts a high PDO.

I wonder if that sounds like a team we know.

Sure, and when players can begin to control their shot speed to levels approaching what would be needed to duplicate those goals then I'll agree. But the simple fact is that, right now, goals are scored that are fundamentally out of a players ability to control. He takes a shot from the point, it's .5 inches to the right of where he was aiming and because of that it ever so slightly ticks off another players stick, who hasn't even mentally processed the shot leaving the stick yet, much less had time to react to it, which causes it to hit off a shin pad, off the post, off the back of the goalie, and in. If, instead, that shot was .5 inches to the left it would have missed the first stick entirely, not hit the shinpad, not hit the post, not gone in and instead smacked the goalie in the chest.

Sure that might technically not be luck, but as I said, until players can begin to actually control the puck to that level (hint, they can't), luck is as good a thing to call it.
This would be under the assumption that all variance being claimed as luck is due to completely uncontrollable factors, which I don't believe to be true.

This is also under the assumption that all teams have an equal ability to control these factors, which I also don't believe to be true.

Who said cups can't be won with bad possession? A rational follower of advanced stats won't tell you you *can't* merely that it's much rarer to do so. It's much harder to do it. The odds tell us it *likely* won't happen.

As MoD has shown, multiple times, at the half-season level, shot based metrics have more predictive power than goal based metrics and win based metrics. In addition, shot based metrics have strong correlation with playoff success.

No one (at least no one rational) is saying these are perfect predictors, or even "great" predictors in the pure statistical sense. Just that they're stronger predictors than anything else, including wins.
Then the question becomes how low of a predictive value must it be for the prediction to be relatively worthless? Also, just because one statistic potentially has slightly higher predictive value at a certain level of games and variables for an average, does not mean that that same correlation holds true for all parts of the sample, especially when analyzing a league which incorporates countless different strategies.

Statistics would say that none of these statistics have worthwhile predictive value, whether that be because of problems in the models, or what you like to call luck.

And to answer your question, MANY people make wild claims based on these statistics.
 
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hatterson

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That is because teams don't tend to have elite shooters AND elite goalies (that also experience no injuries) at the same time for multiple years, especially during the short time frame right after a massive change in the rules that brought all teams more or less in line with each other and hinders the ability to keep elite groups together.

Plus, it may not happen often, but we see sustained stretches even during this time. As the cap skyrockets, you will probably see it more often.

If you were to have a team that had many forwards capable of high-end production, an elite goalie, and a defense/system that emphasized protecting against high-chance opportunities instead of shots, you would likely see a team that consistently posts a high PDO.

I wonder if that sounds like a team we know.

There's some bold assumptions in there, specifically that the Leafs over the last 2 years have had a unique combination of elite goaltending, elite shooting and a system that purports to limit scoring chances while not having a meaningful impact on average shot distance.

Bold claims require bold proof.

This would be under the assumption that all variance being claimed as luck is due to completely uncontrollable factors, which I don't believe to be true.

I never said that, I said that luck exists in response to your claim that it flat out doesn't.


And to answer your question, MANY people make wild claims based on these statistics.

If there are any of those people in this thread you should respond to them instead of making sweeping generalizations.
 

Master_Of_Districts

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Why are you able to assume that the variance due to luck is the same as your value for binomial variantion?

If it is that simple, I question why others do calculations for this value, and get different results.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/11/22/1826590/luck-in-the-nhl-standings
http://blog.philbirnbaum.com/2013/01/luck-vs-talent-in-nhl-standings.html
http://www.bettingexpert.com/blog/football-luck

1. The first study looked at the percentage of variation attributable to luck over an 82 game sample, based on data from 2005-06 to 2009-10. My own study calculated the standard deviation in true talent winning percentage from 2007-08 to 2010-11. Two different things.

2. The second study is more similar to my own, but it looked at data from 2006-07 to 2011-12, rather than from 2007-08 to 2010-11. The spread in results was a little broader than what's typically been the case in recent years in both 2006-07 and 2011-12, which would inflate the talent estimate. In any event, Phil found that talent explains 50% of the variation in team results at the 73 game mark, which is broadly consistent with my own finding that talent explains 32% of the variation in results by the 40 game mark.

3. The third study appears to relate to football rather than hockey.
 

Gutchecktime

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There are a LOT of Leafs fans who are taking this a lot more personally than they should. Based on everything stats had shown before, there was every reason to believe they would regress. That's not anything to get offended over. The Leafs continue to buck the trend, and it calls the stats into question. So, now it's time to go back to the drawing board and figure out a more accurate way.

In fairness though, that's not what most stats guys seem to be saying. They're not saying "Hm, let's look at other reasons why the Leafs seem to be overcoming PDO/Possession". I don't think Leaf fans would be getting worked up if that was the case. Most of the people who predicted doom for the Leafs haven't even been able to admit that their prediction was incorrect. They're still using these numbers to slag the Leafs like:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-wins-only-cloud-bigger-issue/

and

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-will-finish-in-the-2013-14-standings/page/20

which predicts the Leafs to go from 3rd in the East to 10th based on those possession numbers.

It's still happening.

If you're one of the people who says "I think there was reason to predict a regression but it hasn't happened so there must be other ways that they are able to overcome that, let's investigate it" then I think that's fantastic and I can respect that. But I think you have to understand that there's a large number of people in the media and on twitter that are still using this to bash the Leafs and that's why Leaf fans are getting pretty sick of it.
 

zeke

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Mar 14, 2005
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Between these two options:

(1) The entire hockey analytics community (sorry - the *majority* of the hockey analytics community) is only doing this to disparage the Toronto Maple Leafs, or

(2) A Toronto fan is a bit sensitive about anything that casts his team in a negative light.

I know which option I'm picking. Do you?

Hockey analytics is a lot of work. If I wanted to disparage the Maple Leafs, there are a hell of a lot easier ways to do it.

(3) the current surge in mainstream popularity of these statistics is a direct result of what they say about the current version of the hated toronto maple leafs.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
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Lightning had a 46.7% Score effects-Adjusted Fenwick last year. They are now at 51.5%.
Ducks had a 48.9% SAF last year. They are now at 51.2%.

Senators had a 53.0% SAF last year. They are now at 50.0%.
Canucks had a 52.2% SAF last year. They are now at 50.7%.
Islanders had a 51.2% SAF last year. They are now at 47.4%.

The numbers have moved. OTT, VAN, NYI took significant drops in Fenwick and corresponding drops in the standings. TB and ANA vice versa. What I think you're trying to say, however (and I agree) is that just because a team is good at Fenwick one season, doesn't mean they will be good the next season.

The only outliers which don't seem to "obey" Fenwick are TOR and COL. Great goaltending clearly looks like the way to "cheat" Fenwick.

The dramatic shifts in possession numbers between seasons for rosters that are 90% similar tells us pretty clearly that the basic idea that possession numbers reveal anyhing resembling a "true talent" level is obviously wrong.

And none of your examples actually changes the point - whether its due to teams changing their posession numbers or continuing to defy similar possession numbers, either way the possession numbers have been 100% wrong in predicting the significant risers and fallers for this season. Not just kinda wrong, but 100% wrong.

This is a very strong indicator that there is very little causality embedded in the loose correlation between possession numbers and winning that has been talke about so much.
 

Pi

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(3) the current surge in mainstream popularity of these statistics is a direct result of what they say about the current version of the hated Toronto maple leafs.

Bingo. My vote goes for (3).
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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(3) the current surge in mainstream popularity of these statistics is a direct result of what they say about the current version of the hated toronto maple leafs.

Probably mere coincidence that this year they are featured in both power rankings and covers of hockey magazines with pictures of the Leafs.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
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Bingo. My vote goes for (3).

Nah. Definitely 2.

You may have noticed it now that the Leafs are in a position to have these stats applied to them and because they're bucking an established trend, but they've been making appearances before that.

Believe it or not, but not everything in the world is here to destroy the Leafs. Its not the world against you.
 

Master_Of_Districts

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This is a very strong indicator that there is very little causality embedded in the loose correlation between possession numbers and winning that has been talke about so much.

Of course, if you look at the evidence as a whole - rather than self-servingly choosing to focus on how a few teams fared in 2013-14 - a different picture emerges.
 

Gutchecktime

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Dec 24, 2005
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Nah. Definitely 2.

You may have noticed it now that the Leafs are in a position to have these stats applied to them and because they're bucking an established trend, but they've been making appearances before that.

Believe it or not, but not everything in the world is here to destroy the Leafs. Its not the world against you.

The Leafs are 3rd in the East with 17 games left and these people still won't admit they might have been wrong. I'm not sure why you don't understand Leaf fans being annoyed at that.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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The Leafs are 3rd in the East with 17 games left and these people still won't admit they might have been wrong. I'm not sure why you don't understand Leaf fans being annoyed at that.

OK, fine. Ignore it.

This thread is for the discussion of statistics; for finding out what is going right, what is going wrong, maybe finding a better way. It's not for the vindication of hurt Leafs fans.
 

Gutchecktime

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Dec 24, 2005
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OK, fine. Ignore it.

This thread is for the discussion of statistics; for finding out what is going right, what is going wrong, maybe finding a better way. It's not for the vindication of hurt Leafs fans.

The thread is about Corsi, shot quality and the Toronto Maple Leafs and I'm talking about how the people who used Corsi to predict the Leafs' demise were completely wrong but won't admit it. Seems pretty on topic to me.
 

hatterson

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The thread is about Corsi, shot quality and the Toronto Maple Leafs and I'm talking about how the people who used Corsi to predict the Leafs' demise were completely wrong but won't admit it. Seems pretty on topic to me.

As has been explained many times in this thread, no, the predictions weren't wrong. The Leafs have, in fact, regressed significantly since the beginning of the season and haven't been a significantly above average team *in corsi situations* since the first month of the season. The Leafs being in 3rd despite this is due to their performance in the shootout, a situation where corsi doesn't apply.

People who were saying the Leafs overall record would regress were being too aggressive in their claims because what the numbers actually said was that their performances, specifically 5 on 5, in corsi situations would regress. Given that there wasn't much reason to believe the Leafs would be an elite shootout team, some people just extended that claim, although most didn't.


So if you want to respond to a specific claim that someone made regarding the Leafs overall record, please go find the post, quote it, and reply directly to it. But, and this goes to everyone in the thread, stop with the generic "advanced stat guys said X" or "Everyone predicted the Leafs would fail" comments.
 

Gutchecktime

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Dec 24, 2005
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As has been explained many times in this thread, no, the predictions weren't wrong. The Leafs have, in fact, regressed significantly since the beginning of the season and haven't been a significantly above average team *in corsi situations* since the first month of the season. The Leafs being in 3rd despite this is due to their performance in the shootout, a situation where corsi doesn't apply.

People who were saying the Leafs overall record would regress were being too aggressive in their claims because what the numbers actually said was that their performances, specifically 5 on 5, in corsi situations would regress. Given that there wasn't much reason to believe the Leafs would be an elite shootout team, some people just extended that claim, although most didn't.


So if you want to respond to a specific claim that someone made regarding the Leafs overall record, please go find the post, quote it, and reply directly to it. But, and this goes to everyone in the thread, stop with the generic "advanced stat guys said X" or "Everyone predicted the Leafs would fail" comments.

Someone already asked me to not say "all the advanced stats guys" and I apologized and said I should've been more specific.

The post you've quoted says that the people who used Corsi to predict the Leafs demise were wrong and should admit it. If you weren't one of those people, then there's no need for any defensiveness.
 

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